PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS

[The Light]

You need to distinguish that the sixth seal is shortly before Jesus coming down to earth.

The 6th seal is NOT shortly before Jesus coming down to earth.
The 6th seal is Jesus coming for the gathering from heaven and earth. He remains in the clouds. There is a rapture at the 6th seal. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7. They are going to heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb.
After the 6th seal the 7th seal is opened which is the wrath of God. The wrath of God lasts one year. At the end of wrath Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives.

The sixth seal event is the sign of the Son of man appearing in heaven (red highlighted text). And shorty thereafter, Jesus coming with power and great glory (blue highlighted text).

No. This is something that you are making up. The sixth seal is a harvest seen here.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

When Jesus descends to earth in Revelation 19, what have the kings of earth and their armies gathered together to do in Revelation 19:19 ?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The wicked men of the earth will be terrified - when they see Jesus in heaven, sickle in hand (from Revelation 14:14), the sign of the Son of man appearing in heaven.

After their initial reaction of being totally terrified, the kings of the earth will gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus and his army of heaven.

That's what Revelation 19:19 indicates.

Jesus returns in power and glory at the 6th seal. He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. This is not the time that armies of heaven come at Armageddon.

Do you see anything to do with Armageddon regarding Jesus sending His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. The reason He is gathering people from the earth is that believers are not appointed to wrath. The 7th seal is getting ready to open and the one year wrath of God will be poured out on unbelievers.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Many means many.

Many is not all.

Additionally, the verses talk about the people of Daniel. That is the nail in the coffin. You are going to have to really make something up to get past that fact.

LOL. The words "many" or "multitudes" can describe all of something. Show me a definition from any dictionary you can find that defines "many" or "multitudes" as "not all". Good luck.

If I say that there are many or multitudes of people in the world does that mean I'm not referring to all of the people in the world? No. So, your claim that many has to mean not all is ridiculous and a complete joke. You cause scripture to contradict itself by making Daniel 12:2 a different event than John 5:28-29. Jesus said all of the dead will be resurrected at the same time, so the "many" or "multitudes" of Daniel 12:2 describes the number of the dead that will be resurrected, which will be many (multitudes).

 

[The Light]

Some make things up in their imagination (looking at you).


Scripture says that Christ's wrath will come on the day of His second coming (Matthew 24:35-39, 1 Thess 4:14-5:3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 14:14-20, Rev 19:11-21). Scripture says that He is coming a second time, not a third time and it will be in the same manner in which He left (Hebrews 9:28, Acts 1:9-11).

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. All eyes see the coming of the Lord. He sends His angels for a harvest. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. Then the armies of heaven come for Armageddon and then Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives.

Additionally, 1 Thes 4 is the rapture of the Church.
Additionally, the first part of Revelation is Jesus coming for the 144,000 first fruits.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. All eyes see the coming of the Lord. He sends His angels for a harvest. All return to heaven for the marriage supper.

LOL. Nowhere does it say that we are taken to heaven after we are gathered to meet the Lord and nowhere does it say that the marriage supper takes place in heaven. In Revelation 19 we see a description of the bride being ready for the marriage supper, but it has not yet taken place at that point and it doesn't say it takes place in heaven. You just make things up.

Then the armies of heaven come for Armageddon and then Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives.

Additionally, 1 Thes 4 is the rapture of the Church.
Additionally, the first part of Revelation is Jesus coming for the 144,000 first fruits.

Nowhere does it say that the 144,000 are raptured separately from the church. There is one rapture and it is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 by Paul and also referenced in other scriptures like Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, Revelation 11:12 and Revelation 14:14-17.

 

[The Light]

How do you reconcile 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 with your doctrine?

Jesus is revealed at the 6th seal and sends His angels to gather elect. That is when all eyes see the coming of the Lord.

Then the 7th seal is opened, and the wrath of God begins.

Like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3,

1 Thes 4:14 regards the rapture of the Church.
1 Thes 5:3 regards the wrath of God

These are different events totally.

Paul teaches there that Jesus will come once and deliver His wrath upon all of His enemies while gathering His people to Himself. How do you get two separate events from that? Your doctrine blatantly contradicts what Paul taught.

I see no problem. Jesus does come once to gather the elect from heaven and earth and then the 7th seal is opened and wrath begins.

Jesus will return with the armies of heaven at the end of wrath.

How do you SKIP all the trumpets and vials of wrath. The are the 7th seal. All you want to talk about is the 7th trumpet of the 7th seal and completely skip the trumpets and vials.

 

[The Light]

LOL. Nowhere does it say that we are taken to heaven after we are gathered to meet the Lord and nowhere does it say that the marriage supper takes place in heaven. In Revelation 19 we see a description of the bride being ready for the marriage supper, but it has not yet taken place at that point and it doesn't say it takes place in heaven. You just make things up.

See the great multitude in heaven after the 6th seal. And the marriage supper takes place in heaven.

You just skip half the Bible.

Nowhere does it say that the 144,000 are raptured separately from the church.

The 144,000 are 12,000 from 12 tribes. They are first fruits. First fruits are not the harvest, so you are in error.

There is one rapture and it is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 by Paul and also referenced in other scriptures like Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, Revelation 11:12 and Revelation 14:14-17.

There are two raptures described all over the Word.

You mention Rev 14:14-17. Those raptured from the earth are singing the song of Moses. They are of the 12 tribes. This is not todays Church. You skip all the facts, constantly.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

The market is getting ready to open. See you later.

I see you like to use the laughing emoji when the Word disagrees with your doctrine. Lame.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus is revealed at the 6th seal and sends His angels to gather elect. That is when all eyes see the coming of the Lord.

Then the 7th seal is opened, and the wrath of God begins.

So, do you believe that the following occurs at the 6th seal?

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

If so, you think after the elect are gathered by the angels that it will then take a year for Christ to take "vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"?

1 Thes 4:14 regards the rapture of the Church.
1 Thes 5:3 regards the wrath of God

These are different events totally.

LOL. No, they are not. There is no basis for this claim whatsoever. Look at 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 above. Do you not think that what is described in 2 Thessalonians 1:10 happens when the rapture of the church occurs?

Jesus will return with the armies of heaven at the end of wrath.

How do you SKIP all the trumpets and vials of wrath. The are the 7th seal. All you want to talk about is the 7th trumpet of the 7th seal and completely skip the trumpets and vials.

I don't skip those. I just don't base my doctrine primarily on them like you do. I base my doctrine on clear, straightforward scriptures that I then use to try to interpret more difficult scriptures that we see in books like Revelation. But, you do it the other way around. You base your doctrine mainly on more difficult scriptures and then twist the clear, straightforward scriptures we find in the gospels and written by Paul and Peter to fit your interpretation of Revelation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

See the great multitude in heaven after the 6th seal.

That is not a chronological sequence of events being described there. That is a description of the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven. It sometimes seems like maybe you believe in soul sleep because every time you see a description of believers in Revelation who are not on the earth you always assume they have bodies.

And the marriage supper takes place in heaven.

You just skip half the Bible.

Do you have nothing but lies to offer? I do not skip half the Bible. Unlike you, I am careful to not cause contradictions in the Bible. Because of your imaginary two rapture theory you end up butchering the text in passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 to fit your imaginary doctrine. I'm not willing to be dishonest with scripture like you are.

There are two raptures described all over the Word.

LOL. This is the most ridiculous comment that anyone has ever made about anything in the history of the world. There are two rapture described NOWHERE in the Word.

You mention Rev 14:14-17. Those raptured from the earth are singing the song of Moses. They are of the 12 tribes. This is not todays Church. You skip all the facts, constantly.

They also sing the song of the Lamb, which you ignore. That is a description of the church. You continually just make things up and ignore things to suit your doctrine.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

The market is getting ready to open. See you later.

AND THE SONG OF THE LAMB. You conveniently ignore that part.

I see you like to use the laughing emoji when the Word disagrees with your doctrine. Lame.

I laugh when I see something funny. Your nonsense frequently makes me laugh.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I see some pretty strange doctrines.

Yes, such as the ones you believe in. Two raptures? LOL.

............such as the 7th seal wrath of God is 30 minutes of silence in heaven.

No one claims that. Why do you do nothing but make things up? There is silence in heaven because no one is there. Jesus, His angels and the souls of the dead in Christ will have left heaven at that point. The angels gather the church and then Christ takes vengeance on all of His enemies on the earth at that point. Just like is described in passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10. You make simple things convoluted for no reason.

Do you think the nations of the earth mourn because of 30 minutes of silence in heaven.

Start with common sense if you cannot understand the Word of God. Does 30 minutes of silence in heaven sound like God is pouring out His wrath?

LOL. Why would there be noise in heaven while God is pouring out His wrath upon the earth? Hello? You are the one lacking common sense.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have never heard such nonsense in my life. What are you on?

Daniel 12:1-3 reveals, “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.”

The first thing we need to establish here is: this is describing a general resurrection. This resurrection involves two types of people – the righteous and the wicked; one group rises "to everlasting life" the other to "everlasting contempt." Pretrib or Premil does not believe that. They oppose that. They are therefore fighting with the text. The fact that we see a clear description of the general resurrection of the righteous and the wicked tells us that this is a tribulation that occurs prior to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Not surprisingly, Daniel 12 agrees with the consistent New Testament Scripture. This is one of many passages that prove Amillennialist position. This text totally negates the Premillennial paradigm.

They cannot go anywhere near recognizes the fact there is a general judgment in view here. Your fixation with "many" is a sidetrack from the indisputable reality of a future general resurrection when Jesus comes.

The word here for “many” in the original Hebrew (rab) actually means: the abundance, referring to quantity, size, age, number, rank, quality. It refers to a large number, which may or may not refer to all of something.

In the sense it is used here it includes everyone that is in the grave. Namely: “the abundance of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.”

The all-inclusive resurrection that the Old Testament prophet foresaw is confirmed in the New Testament writings. "All" indeed the dead come forth when Jesus comes. The abundance of the dead are released on that great climatic day.

Agree. The argument that Daniel 12:2 can't be referring to all of the dead being resurrected at the same time just because it says many (or multitudes) are resurrected at that time is one of the most ridiculous arguments I've ever seen. As you pointed out the Hebrew word "rab" refers to a large number that may or may not refer to all of something.

I have pointed out passages like this to him before:

Genesis 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the Lord, the everlasting God. 34 And Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land many days.

The Hebrew word "rab" is translated as "many" in Genesis 21:34 to describe the number of days Abraham was in the Philistines' land. Is this talking about some of the days that Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land or all of the days that he sojourned there? All of them, obviously. So, the word can be used to describe the number of all of something.

Also, to interpret Daniel 12:2 as not referring to all of the dead being resurrected and then judged at the same time contradicts what Jesus taught in John 5:28-29. Premils don't care if they cause scripture to contradict itself. They are reckless with their handling of scripture.

 

[Douggg]

The 6th seal is NOT shortly before Jesus coming down to earth.
The 6th seal is Jesus coming for the gathering from heaven and earth. He remains in the clouds. There is a rapture at the 6th seal.

There is no rapture mentioned in Revelation 6, the 6th seal verses.

No. This is something that you are making up. The sixth seal is a harvest seen here.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Revelation 14:14 is not a rapture harvest. The sickle is for judgment.

Jesus returns in power and glory at the 6th seal.

The 6th seal is the appearing of the Son of man in heaven as it says in Matthew 24:30a

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.'

Do you see anything to do with Armageddon regarding Jesus sending His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

Matthew 24:31 is after Jesus has returned to earth and the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 is not in Revelation.

The gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 is referring to the final gathering of the Jews from nations around the world to the nation Israel. A promise that God made in Deuteronomy 30:1-6

The phrase "from one of heaven to the other" is a figure of speech that means from the most distant lands from Israel. The phrase is found in Deuteronomy 30:4.

Deuteronomy 30:
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

 

[The Light]

So, do you believe that the following occurs at the 6th seal?

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
If so, you think after the elect are gathered by the angels that it will then take a year for Christ to take "vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"?

I believe Jesus comes at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth. All eyes see the coming of the Lord.

Then the 7th seal is opened, and the wrath of God begins. Wrath will last one year.

LOL. No, they are not. There is no basis for this claim whatsoever. Look at 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 above. Do you not think that what is described in 2 Thessalonians 1:10 happens when the rapture of the church occurs?

Of course not.

I don't skip those. I just don't base my doctrine primarily on them like you do. I base my doctrine on clear, straightforward scriptures that I then use to try to interpret more difficult scriptures that we see in books like Revelation. But, you do it the other way around. You base your doctrine mainly on more difficult scriptures and then twist the clear, straightforward scriptures we find in the gospels and written by Paul and Peter to fit your interpretation of Revelation.

I apply of all of scripture as it is all profitable.

You apply only scriptures you think you understand but you don't.

 

[The Light]

Yes, such as the ones you believe in. Two raptures? LOL.

I realize that you don't understand these things. If you did you would realize like I did that Jesus comes for the Church before the great tribulation. And then He comes at the 6th seal before wrath, after the man of sin is revealed.

Sadly, you have no clue how close His coming is. Remember what I told you about the aliens and UFO's, you will need to know not to believe what your eyes see.

No one claims that. Why do you do nothing but make things up? There is silence in heaven because no one is there. Jesus, His angels and the souls of the dead in Christ will have left heaven at that point. The angels gather the church and then Christ takes vengeance on all of His enemies on the earth at that point. Just like is described in passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10. You make simple things convoluted for no reason.

I hear that claim all the time. Look back at Scotts posts and you will see it.

LOL. Why would there be noise in heaven while God is pouring out His wrath upon the earth? Hello? You are the one lacking common sense.

LOL. Why would God be pouring His wrath out on the earth, when the first angel hasn't sounded the first trumpet of wrath. Try common sense.

 

[The Light]

Agree. The argument that Daniel 12:2 can't be referring to all of the dead being resurrected at the same time just because it says many (or multitudes) are resurrected at that time is one of the most ridiculous arguments I've ever seen. As you pointed out the Hebrew word "rab" refers to a large number that may or may not refer to all of something.

I have pointed out passages like this to him before:

Genesis 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the Lord, the everlasting God. 34 And Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land many days.

The Hebrew word "rab" is translated as "many" in Genesis 21:34 to describe the number of days Abraham was in the Philistines' land. Is this talking about some of the days that Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land or all of the days that he sojourned there? All of them, obviously. So, the word can be used to describe the number of all of something.

Also, to interpret Daniel 12:2 as not referring to all of the dead being resurrected and then judged at the same time contradicts what Jesus taught in John 5:28-29. Premils don't care if they cause scripture to contradict itself. They are reckless with their handling of scripture.

And yet the verses are talking about the people of Daniel and not all people. Oh, the old fly in the ointment.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Revelation 19 is not the second coming. Contrary to popular belief, the second coming occurs at the 6th seal. That is when all eyes see the coming of the Lord.

Below in Revelation 14 is the second coming. It occurs at the 6th seal. When you are reading Rev 13 and 14 you are back in the seals.
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

The Church is raptured when it is like the days of Noah. Noah is shut in the ark before the flood comes. The rapture of the Church is a secret rapture. The only ones that see the Lord are the first fold.

The AOD will be set up after the Church is raptured. Then the great tribulation will then begin. At the end of the great tribulation there is a rapture of the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth. It will be like the days of Lot. The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. That day of destruction is the day of wrath.

Luke 17
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

The Lord is revealed at the 6th seal. Then the day of wrath begins. The Lord remains in the clouds and gathers the elect from heaven earth. This is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7.


Correct. The second coming is not on white horses though that's what is taught. The second coming occurs the day the Lord is revealed. That day occurs at the 6th seal.

When we return on white horses that is Armageddon. After Armageddon Jesus set His feet on the mount of Olives. This is the second advent.

Nope.
The First fruit Jews are in heaven at the beginning of rev chapter fourteen.
Any time you see first fruits It refers to harvest, THEN the main body of Jews must follow after first fruits.
WE SEE IN revelation 14, verse fourteen, the main body of Jews as harvested by Jesus holding a sickle sitting on a cloud
They go to heaven for the marriage supper. That is why the gentiles are raptured and then those left behind are martyred and are in heaven. ( the Time of the Gentiles completed). Then Jewish remnant is harvested.
So The Times of the Gentiles is complete at the rapture of the gentle bride. But then the Jew, the covenant Jew is brought in, in revelation 14 to heaven. They all go to heaven for the marriage supper.

Then in Rev 19 the bride has become the wife. IN HEAVEN.
( how can you miss Rev 19??????)

You are hyper bracketing "tribulation", "great tribulation", "wrath", and centering on everything happening on earth.
That muddies up all that is happening in heaven.

Instead of centering on the 2 covenants and what God is doing in heaven, you are centering on earth and bracketing terms that are taking you into a earth centered view.

 

[rebuilder 454]

​

Both Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are the same gathering, and it is not just those in heaven, it includes those on earth
You have missed the mark here, by saying this is only a heavenly gathering.
You are proven to be in error.
All the elect in heaven and on earth are gathered together at Christ's coming.

Matthew 24

The Coming of the Son of Man​

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13

The Coming of the Son of Man​

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His [h]elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No further proof is needed as the error is exposed. Meaning your entire supposition is bogus, trying to be nice about!

The uttermost part of earth is the atmosphere.

We have 1) heaven
2 ) four winds
3) uttermost part of earth ( atmosphere).

So no, no smoking gun one liners from your workbook.
Pretrib rapture fits all those verses perfectly.

 

[Scott Downey]

The uttermost part of earth is the atmosphere.

We have 1) heaven
2 ) four winds
3) uttermost part of earth ( atmosphere).

So no, no smoking gun one liners from your workbook.
Pretrib rapture fits all those verses perfectly.

'from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.'

Meaning this includes everywhere the elect might be, whether on earth or in heaven.
Jesus tells his people who are on earth to 'look up', they are on the earth witnessing these things happening.
God's deliverance will come for them from heaven, to those who are on earth.

Luke 21

The Coming of the Son of Man​

25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

 

[The Light]

There is no rapture mentioned in Revelation 6, the 6th seal verses.

Here is the rapture that occurs at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation of those days. The signs of the sun, moon and stars show that Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal.
Matthew 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 14:14 is not a rapture harvest. The sickle is for judgment.

Here is the righteous being raptured. They are going to heaven.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Here is the unrighteous being cast into the wrath of God.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The 6th seal is the appearing of the Son of man in heaven as it says in Matthew 24:30a Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.'

Ok so far.

Matthew 24:31 is after Jesus has returned to earth

You might want to read a little closer. Jesus does not come to the earth. He sends His angels to gather the elect.

and the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 is not in Revelation.

The elect are gathered from heaven earth. The Church is gathered from heaven as we are raptured before the tribulation. The 12 tribes across the earth are gathered from the earth shown here.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

All go to heaven for the marriage supper. Here are those of the 12 tribes that are raptured from the earth and are in heaven.

Revelation 15
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

These are those that come out of great tribulation in Revelation 7. These plus the Church are the great multitude in Rev 7. All are going to the marriage supper as the one-year wrath of God takes place.

The gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 is referring to the final gathering of the Jews from nations around the world to the nation Israel. A promise that God made in Deuteronomy 30:1-6

Sorry. It is a gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

[The Light]

Nope.

What?

The First fruit Jews are in heaven at the beginning of rev chapter fourteen.

Exactly

Any time you see first fruits It refers to harvest, THEN the main body of Jews must follow after first fruits.

Exactly

WE SEE IN revelation 14, verse fourteen, the main body of Jews as harvested by Jesus holding a sickle sitting on a cloud

Exactly

They go to heaven for the marriage supper.

Exactly

That is why the gentiles are raptured and then those left behind are martyred and are in heaven. ( the Time of the Gentiles completed).

You are cross contaminating the fullness of the Gentiles with the times of the Gentiles. Not the same thing.

Then Jewish remnant is harvested.
So The Times of the Gentiles is complete at the rapture of the gentle bride.

The fullness of the Gentiles is complete at the rapture of the Gentile bride.

But then the Jew, the covenant Jew is brought in, in revelation 14 to heaven. They all go to heaven for the marriage supper.

Yes. Those of the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman, are raptured to heaven and attend the marriage supper.

The woman, Israel, those that have fled to a place of protection remain on the earth during the 7th seal wrath of God. The seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth and the Gentile Church are in heaven at the marriage supper during the wrath of God.

Then in Rev 19 the bride has become the wife. IN HEAVEN.
( how can you miss Rev 19??????)

Exactly. I must have said something confusing in my post. I agree with this.

You are hyper bracketing "tribulation", "great tribulation", "wrath", and centering on everything happening on earth.
That muddies up all that is happening in heaven.

According to the Word of God, the great tribulation, which is the tribulation of those days, begins when the AOD is set up. The great tribulation ends at the 6th seal. Wrath is the 7th seal. That's Biblical fact. Now that's not what you are going hear on TV, but that is Biblical FACT.

Instead of centering on the 2 covenants and what God is doing in heaven, you are centering on earth and bracketing terms that are taking you into a earth centered view.

I have no idea what I said to make you come to these conclusions

I agree with everything in your post accept ...........the times of the Gentiles being the fullness of the Gentiles. Also, tribulation is when Christians are killed for not taking the mark. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal, according to the Word of God. The 7th seal is the wrath of God, when God takes vengeance on an evil unbelieving world. Tribulation is not wrath.

 

[Douggg]

Here is the rapture that occurs at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation of those days. The signs of the sun, moon and stars show that Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal.
Matthew 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The angels do not rapture anyone. The rapture involves the changing of our bodies from corruptible to incorruptible. The angels don't have that power.