PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS

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rebuilder 454

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You need to distinguish that the sixth seal is shortly before Jesus coming down to earth.

The sixth seal event is the sign of the Son of man appearing in heaven (red highlighted text). And shorty thereafter, Jesus coming with power and great glory (blue highlighted text).

When Jesus descends to earth in Revelation 19, what have the kings of earth and their armies gathered together to do in Revelation 19:19 ?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The wicked men of the earth will be terrified - when they see Jesus in heaven, sickle in hand (from Revelation 14:14), the sign of the Son of man appearing in heaven.

After their initial reaction of being totally terrified, the kings of the earth will gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus and his army of heaven.

That's what Revelation 19:19 indicates.
Rev 14:14 is tge gathering of the Jews by Jesus.
In Rev 14, the first few verses, the 144k FIRSTFRUITS ethnic Jews are in heaven.
Main harvest Jews follows. That is Rev 14:14.

....and yes Rev 19 is the second coming in power and great glory to do battle. No sickle.

As mat 24 also agrees ( coming after the trib, or gt, or post 70th week whatever suits the modern man picky terminology) ....as you pointed out.
The Coming at the end of the 7yr trib.( Rev 19)

It is a shame you need 10 qualifiers to say postrib, or end of the 7 yr trib.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I believe Jesus comes at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth. All eyes see the coming of the Lord.

Then the 7th seal is opened, and the wrath of God begins. Wrath will last one year.
Was my question too hard? You didn't answer it. Let's try again.

So, do you believe that the following occurs at the 6th seal? Yes or no?

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

If so, you think after the elect are gathered by the angels that it will then take a year for Christ to take "vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"?

Of course not.
LOL. How can the time when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe not be when the rapture of the church occurs? Who do you think are "his saints" and "them that believe" if not the church?

I apply of all of scripture as it is all profitable.
No, you don't. And the scripture you do apply you apply wrongly at least 90% of the time.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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The angels do not rapture anyone. The rapture involves the changing of our bodies from corruptible to incorruptible. The angels don't have that power.
No, the word rapture applies to us being caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The word "rapture" comes from the Latin word "raptus," which also means "caught up" or "carried away". The changing of our bodies from corruptible to incorruptible, which is something God does when Jesus comes at the last trumpet, happens just before the rapture (catching up) occurs. After our bodies are changed from corruptible to incorruptible then the angels will gather us and take us up to meet the Lord in the air.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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The uttermost part of earth is the atmosphere.

We have 1) heaven
2 ) four winds
3) uttermost part of earth ( atmosphere).

So no, no smoking gun one liners from your workbook.
Pretrib rapture fits all those verses perfectly.
LOL! Tell me how the elect are going to be gathered from the atmosphere. Will it only be believers who are flying in airplanes and helicopters at the time that will be gathered from the uttermost part of earth? LOL!
 

Spiritual Israelite

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And yet the verses are talking about the people of Daniel and not all people. Oh, the old fly in the ointment.
No, that's not true. Nowhere in verse 2 does it say that only the people of Daniel are resurrected. Verse 1 talks about Daniel's people being delivered. That's talking about saved Israelites, but the resurrection also includes the unsaved and it includes all of the dead saved people. We know from what Jesus taught in John 5:28-29 that it will be all of the dead. You make scripture contradict itself and you don't even care.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I realize that you don't understand these things. If you did you would realize like I did that Jesus comes for the Church before the great tribulation. And then He comes at the 6th seal before wrath, after the man of sin is revealed.
You understand nothing and keep proving that over and over again.

Sadly, you have no clue how close His coming is. Remember what I told you about the aliens and UFO's, you will need to know not to believe what your eyes see.
LOL. Your doctrine is based on things you conjure up in your imagination and nothing more.

I hear that claim all the time. Look back at Scotts posts and you will see it.
You hear it all the time because it's true. You think you are the only person on the planet who understand the truth about these things. You can't get any more arrogant and delusional than that.

LOL. Why would God be pouring His wrath out on the earth, when the first angel hasn't sounded the first trumpet of wrath. Try common sense.
Common sense says that interpreting the whole book chronologically from beginning to end makes a mess of the book and causes contradictions with other scripture. Since you have no common sense, you are not able to discern that.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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The fullness of the Gentiles is complete at the rapture of the Gentile bride.
There is no such thing as "the Gentile bride". The bride of Christ consists of both Jew and Gentile believers. You are continually making things up not taught anywhere in scripture. You have no shame.

The woman, Israel, those that have fled to a place of protection remain on the earth during the 7th seal wrath of God. The seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth and the Gentile Church are in heaven at the marriage supper during the wrath of God.
There is no such thing as "the Gentile Church". Both Jew and Gentile believers are in the Church. You try to divide what the blood of Christ brought together as one. Shameful.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Revelation 14:14 is not a rapture harvest. The sickle is for judgment.
Revelation 14:14-17 is a symbolic portrayal of the rapture of the church. Revelation 14:18-20 describes God's wrath and judgment. Do you not differentiate between Revelation 14:14-17 and Revelation 14:18-20?
 

The Light

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The angels do not rapture anyone. The rapture involves the changing of our bodies from corruptible to incorruptible. The angels don't have that power.
Do they have the power to gather the elect from heaven and earth when the Lord sends them?
 

The Light

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There is no such thing as "the Gentile bride". The bride of Christ consists of both Jew and Gentile believers. You are continually making things up not taught anywhere in scripture. You have no shame.

Your lack of understanding is only outweighed by your refusal to believe what is written.
There is no such thing as "the Gentile Church". Both Jew and Gentile believers are in the Church. You try to divide what the blood of Christ brought together as one. Shameful.
Don't be ignorant of this mystery.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

What that mean?
 

The Light

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Revelation 14:14-17 is a symbolic portrayal of the rapture of the church. Revelation 14:18-20 describes God's wrath and judgment. Do you not differentiate between Revelation 14:14-17 and Revelation 14:18-20?
Symbolic????????????????????

Rapture of the Church????????????????

Why do those that get victory over beast sing the song of Moses?????????????

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Your lack of understanding is only outweighed by your refusal to believe what is written.
I would never refuse to believe what is written. I have no problem refusing to believe what you think is written, though.

Don't be ignorant of this mystery.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

What that mean?
Read the rest of Romans 11 from the beginning and you can see what it means. Do you know what it means for "blindness in part" to have "happened to Israel"?

Romans 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Blindness in part happened to Israel in the sense that there was an elect remnant of believers that obtained what it sought (salvation by grace through faith in Christ) "and the rest were blinded" and cut off because of their unbelief (Romans 11:20). So, part of Israel was saved in Paul's time and part was blinded. So, what Paul was saying in Romans 11:25 is that would continue until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. And the reason for that is because the process that started back then is God's plan for saving Jews and Gentiles. His plan was first for the Jews to preach the gospel and bring salvation to the Gentiles and then He turned it around to have Gentiles bring the gospel and salvation to the Jews. Here is how Paul explained that plan...

Romans 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! 13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.

As Paul explained here, the Israelite who were blinded stumbled, but they did not fall. God's plan was to bring salvation to the Gentiles who, in turn, would provoke the blinded Israelites to jealous and make them want to be saved as well. And we know that Paul himself believed he would lead some of those blinded Israelites to salvation because he said in relation to his fellow Israelites who had been blinded: "inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.". So, this process started way back then and I'm sure there were a good number of Israelites whose blindness was removed when they were led to salvation by Paul and others. And that has been happening ever since and will continue until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
 

covenantee

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The woman, Israel, those that have fled to a place of protection remain on the earth during the 7th seal wrath of God. The seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth and the Gentile Church are in heaven at the marriage supper during the wrath of God.
Three thousand believing Jews were added to the Church at Pentecost. (Acts 2:5,41)

Millions more believing Jews have been added to the Church throughout history to this point in time.

Have they all turned into Gentiles? :laughing:
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Symbolic????????????????????
LOL! Have you never heard that word before? Do you know what book we're talking about here? Are you somehow not aware that there is symbolism in the book of Revelation? Do you actually think that a literal sickle will be used to harvest people? Get serious.

Rapture of the Church????????????????
Yes, that's what I said. Are you having trouble with your eyes?

Why do those that get victory over beast sing the song of Moses?????????????

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Why do you ignore that they also sing "the song of the Lamb"? Who else sings "the song of the Lamb" except for those in the Church? That's a picture of both Old Testament and New Testament saints who have gotten victory over the beast over the years. The beast is not just some future entity. The beast "was" even before John wrote the book (Revelation 17:8).
 
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The Light

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Three thousand believing Jews were added to the Church at Pentecost. (Acts 2:5,41)

Millions more believing Jews have been added to the Church throughout history to this point in time.

Have they all turned into Gentiles? :laughing:
Yeah, that's the election. Read Romans 11
 

Spiritual Israelite

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The beast was and is not and will come again.
Sounds like a future event.
Sounds like the beast has been around for a long time already since it "was" even before John wrote the book of Revelation. Also, one of the heads of the beast, represented by seven symbolic mountains (kingdoms) and kings, "is" at the time John wrote the book (Revelation 17:10), so the beast was not completely incapacitated when he wrote the book, but rather was restrained, which explained why it "is not" at the time.

Why no response to my pointing out that the ones referenced in Revelation 15 also sing the song of the Lamb? Are you just purposely ignoring that?
 

Douggg

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Rev 14:14 is tge gathering of the Jews by Jesus.
In Rev 14, the first few verses, the 144k FIRSTFRUITS ethnic Jews are in heaven.
Main harvest Jews follows. That is Rev 14:14.
No, Revelation 14:14-20, there is a sickle given to Jesus and a sickle given to an angel to symbolize the destruction the kings of the earth and their armies, gathered at Armageddon to make war on Jesus and His army of heaven - that will take place.

Jesus destroys the portion of those armies surrounding Jerusalem.

The angel destroys the rest of those armies in the other parts of Israel.

Revelation 14.jpg
 

Spiritual Israelite

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No, Revelation 14:14-20, there is a sickle given to Jesus and a sickle given to an angel to symbolize the destruction the kings of the earth and their armies, gathered at Armageddon to make war on Jesus and His army of heaven - that will take place.

Jesus destroys the portion of those armies surrounding Jerusalem.

The angel destroys the rest of those armies in the other parts of Israel.
There is no destruction described in Revelation 14:14-17. There is only destruction described in Revelation 14:18-20. Revelation 14:14-20 is a symbolic representation of the same event that is written about in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3.