PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS

[WPM]

Exactly. And yet when we realize that there are two raptures, everything fits perfectly.

The Church will escape all these things which will come to pass and stand before the Son of Man. This of course happens before the man of sin is revealed and the gathering takes place.

God then turns His attention to the Jews. Before the gathering from heaven and earth occurs at the 6th seal, the man of sin will be revealed.


Correct. That time.......the great tribulation............is not the wrath of God. The great tribulation is the 5th seal. The coming of Jesus for the gathering from heaven and earth occurs after the 6th seal is opened. The 7th seal is Gods wrath.

The Church is removed before the great tribulation, which is the time of testing. The seed of the woman, the 12 twelve tribes across the earth are removed before the wrath of God.


This is totally wrong. First off, the trumpets and vials happen in the same timeframe. That time frame is the 7th seal.

The Church is in heaven before the great tribulation.
The 12 tribes across the earth are raptured from the earth at the 6th seal.

Who is on the earth during Gods wrath? Those on the earth are the unrighteous that the Lord will take vengeance on, the two witnesses, and the woman, Israel that has fled to a place of protection.

Both folds become one-fold are in heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb during the one-year wrath of God.

More adding to Scripture! You make it up as you go. You cannot answer any simple question to support your claims with hard Scripture.

1. Show us any Scripture that teaches there are "two" future "raptures"?
2. Show us any Scripture that teaches "The Church is removed before the great tribulation, which is the time of testing"?
3. Show us any Scripture that teaches there is a "one-year wrath of God"?

 

[WPM]

So, after all the whining you did about him limiting most of the questions to New Testament scripture, you ended up answering them, after all? That seems unlikely. Did you actually provide New Testament scriptures to answer the questions?

He knows, and we all know, he has ducked around every question. He has to! He is teaching fiction from his Pretrib novels.

 

[The Light]

"Postrib".... is post Daniel's 70th week

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The 7th seal is the wrath of God. The 70th week, which has only 3.5 years remaining is not over until after the Day of Atonement.

7yr trib....7 yr tribulation

The great tribulation does not last 7 years. God does not turn His attention to the Jew until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Noah loads the animals on the first day of 7 days. And we don't know the day that the ark door is shut by God.

Jacob's trouble.

Right

All one.
Daniel confirms it as one.
69 weeks transpired

69 weeks transpire until the coming of Messiah. Messiah is cut off 3.5 years after He comes as Messiah............Behold the Lamb of God. He is not cutoff the day He comes. He is cut off 3.5 years later at His crucifixion.

Daniel 12
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

3.5 years. Time, times and half a time.

I week in the future.
Daniel says " in the MIDDLE OF IT" ( the middle of the 7 yr trib/middle of the 70th week) , the ac preforms the AOD.

1 week in the future............Right.

When does the week begin? It begins when a 7-year covenant with many is made such as the 7 year covenant with many that was made by the UN in September of 2023. If the Antichrist confirms this covenant when He is revealed, we will know it is the covenant of Daneil 12. However, the Church will not be here when the Antichrist is revealed. Watch.

JESUS SAID the Innumerable number that no man can count was found in heaven as martyrs.

That's not what Jesus said. He said there is a great multitude which no man could number. The great multitude are the two folds that are joined into one-fold at the gathering from heaven and earth that takes place at the 6th seal.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Of this great multitude, some of them come out of the great tribulation as martyrs and some of them are raptured alive when the great tribulation is cut short. If the great tribulation was not cut short, there would be no flesh raptured alive unto salvation. All believers would be killed.

Revelation 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So not all of the great multitude are martyrs, and not all the great multitude come out of great tribulation.

And this is more or less at the beginning of the tribulation. and they are said to have come out of great tribulation.
So I get a totally different set of definitions than what you're talking about.

No sir. This is the end of the great tribulation..............immediately after the tribulation. When is immediately after the tribulation........the 6th seal. Those that come out of great tribulation are the dead and alive that are raptured at the 6th seal. That's why we see them in Revelation 7 as part of the great multitude.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Is there wrath at the last part of the 7 year tribulation?

There is one year of wrath in the final week, which is the 7th seal. It contains the trumpets and vials of God wrath. Both folds, Church and 12 tribes that are raptured will be in heaven for the marriage supper for the one-year wrath of God.

Yes, there is, but it still one set of 7 years and that is the tribulation or great tribulation, whatever you wanna call it.
But it is one set of 7 years.

Negative. The 7 years begins when the 7 year covenant with many is made. But the Church is not raptured before the 7 years begin. It is raptured sometime after the week begins and sometime before the AOD is set up. When the AOD is set up there are 3.5 years remaining which is the remainder of the 7th week of Daniel. Tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Great multitude in heaven before the 7th seal is opened.

 

[The Light]

More adding to Scripture! You make it up as you go. You cannot answer any simple question to support your claims with hard Scripture.

Those without eyes to see, cannot see. Those without ears to hear cannot hear. These are the foolish virgins that do not believe Jesus when He says that He will come in an hour that we think not. All the proof is in Revelation 3, 4 and 5 that He comes in an hour that you think not and yet you cannot see.

1. Show us any Scripture that teaches there are "two" future "raptures"?

The fig tree has two harvests. FACT.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

1. Show us any Scripture that teaches "The Church is removed before the great tribulation, which is the time of testing"?

Revelation 3
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

1. Show us any Scripture that teaches there is a "one-year wrath of God"?

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Honestly, there is very little time left. I can't help you see. You see what you want to see. You see what you have been taught. It's the time of the end and books are unsealed for those that seek the truth.

 

[WPM]

Those without eyes to see, cannot see. Those without ears to hear cannot hear. These are the foolish virgins that do not believe Jesus when He says that He will come in an hour that we think not. All the proof is in Revelation 3, 4 and 5 that He comes in an hour that you think not and yet you cannot see.


The fig tree has two harvests. FACT.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

LOL. What has that to do with the question i asked? Where are there 2 raptures in Scripture? Where are 2 raptures likened unto a "fig tree" having "two harvests"? Give us Scripture. Your imaginations mean NOTHING.

Revelation 3
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

How many times do you want me to address this impotent argument and how many times are you going to avoid it? The fact is you have to avoid because this verse has absolutely nothing to do with some imaginary future Pretrib rapture.

If one is to read this portion of Scripture in its most straight-forward and literal way it seems clear that this is specifically speaking to the local church in Philadelphia (Asia Minor) in A.D. 96. There is no way you would instinctively relate it to some end-time global Church prior to the coming of the Lord.

Pretribulationists miss (or ignore) the fact that the promise being given here was actually written to the Philadelphian believers in John’s day. The Philadelphians were firstly commended for their steadfast faithfulness and then secondly, as a result of that, they were promised they would be rewarded by given special protection in the hour of trial. We should not forget that the issue in view here was the brutal persecution of the Christians by the Romans in that day, specifically in Asia Minor. The early Church experienced heavy tribulation throughout the known world where the Roman Empire ruled and reigned in unchallenged power. The obedience that is being documented here (“thou hast kept the word of my patience”) was that of these early Philadelphian believers. The New Living Translation puts it “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere.”

We must establish, who is being protected and when? The Philadelphian Christians are promised protection from the said trial back in biblical times. Jesus assures them “I … will keep thee from the hour of temptation.” Why? On the expressed grounds of their ongoing obedience to God. Their faithfulness is both acknowledge and rewarded: “thou hast kept the word of my patience.” Preservation in the midst of trial was/is a common reality for faithful believers throughout all time. Whilst God’s people have experienced awful persecution through time, it has often been God’s heart in scriptural times and Church history to guard His elect in the midst of adversity rather than remove them from it. We see that throughout Scripture.

This has absolutely nothing to do with some imaginary future Pretrib rapture.

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Honestly, there is very little time left. I can't help you see. You see what you want to see. You see what you have been taught. It's the time of the end and books are unsealed for those that seek the truth.

This does not mean there is going to be 12 months of wrath, as you claim. It simply means: the time of judgment has arrived. The final wrath is sudden, wholesale and totally destructive. No one escapes.

 

[WPM]

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Honestly, there is very little time left. I can't help you see. You see what you want to see. You see what you have been taught. It's the time of the end and books are unsealed for those that seek the truth.

Isaiah 34:1-4, 8: “Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree … For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.”

This is total destruction – for who and what is left behind. This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally destroyed. There are no survivors!

Isaiah 34 is speaking about the physical change that affects the earth, heavens and elements when Jesus comes. Premil has to often change the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words in order to get that doctrine to fit. Premil explains away the literal meaning of text after text and replaces with its alternative definition. This is not the way that Scripture should be approached. This is classic eisegesis. There is so much Scripture that forbids the Premil theory that Premil is forced to spiritualize away the clearest and most literal of Scripture. Ironically it literalizes the one book that is the most symbolic in Scripture (Revelation). This alone is grounds to reject the doctrine.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-44: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

All these refer in the one single final coming of Christ and all show that event to be climactic. The detail they teach interweaves to give us a vivid picture of the end.

2 Peter 3:3-13: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

How possibly could the wicked survive the second coming and escape the universal conflagration and wholesale destruction? Premillennialists are forced to dilute the nature of the devastation, localize its extent to a particular region of the globe or spiritualize away the destruction of the wicked completely as a non-literal abstract allegory.

The Premillennialist claims to be a literalist, but there is no spiritualization that can explain this depiction away. It is so water-tight.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL. What has that to do with the question i asked? Where are there 2 raptures in Scripture? Where are 2 raptures likened unto a "fig tree" having "two harvests"? Give us Scripture. Your imaginations mean NOTHING.



How many times do you want me to address this impotent argument and how many times are you going to avoid it? The fact is you have to avoid because this verse has absolutely nothing to do with some imaginary future Pretrib rapture.

If one is to read this portion of Scripture in its most straight-forward and literal way it seems clear that this is specifically speaking to the local church in Philadelphia (Asia Minor) in A.D. 96. There is no way you would instinctively relate it to some end-time global Church prior to the coming of the Lord.

Pretribulationists miss (or ignore) the fact that the promise being given here was actually written to the Philadelphian believers in John’s day. The Philadelphians were firstly commended for their steadfast faithfulness and then secondly, as a result of that, they were promised they would be rewarded by given special protection in the hour of trial. We should not forget that the issue in view here was the brutal persecution of the Christians by the Romans in that day, specifically in Asia Minor. The early Church experienced heavy tribulation throughout the known world where the Roman Empire ruled and reigned in unchallenged power. The obedience that is being documented here (“thou hast kept the word of my patience”) was that of these early Philadelphian believers. The New Living Translation puts it “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere.”

We must establish, who is being protected and when? The Philadelphian Christians are promised protection from the said trial back in biblical times. Jesus assures them “I … will keep thee from the hour of temptation.” Why? On the expressed grounds of their ongoing obedience to God. Their faithfulness is both acknowledge and rewarded: “thou hast kept the word of my patience.” Preservation in the midst of trial was/is a common reality for faithful believers throughout all time. Whilst God’s people have experienced awful persecution through time, it has often been God’s heart in scriptural times and Church history to guard His elect in the midst of adversity rather than remove them from it. We see that throughout Scripture.

This has absolutely nothing to do with some imaginary future Pretrib rapture.



This does not mean there is going to be 12 months of wrath, as you claim. It simply means: the time of judgment has arrived. The final wrath is sudden, wholesale and totally destructive. No one escapes.

Notice how his view is based on major assumptions that he makes about passages that make no mention of the rapture whatsoever. His beliefs come only from his imagination. Premils on this forum prove the point I made about the difference between Premils and Amils over and over again. Premil (and pretrib) is based only on assumptions and speculation while Amil is based on many clear, straightforward scriptures. He just proves that yet again in relation to pretrib.

Hosea 9:10 and Revelation 3:10 have absolutely nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture. Only a complete twisting and manipulating of those scriptures can make them have anything to do with the rapture. Where is the clear, straightforward scripture that pretribs reference to support their doctrine? Nowhere. They have none. So, they have to resort to butchering the text of verses like Hosea 9:10 and Revelation 3:10 in order to support their extremely weak doctrine.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Isaiah 34:1-4, 8: “Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree … For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.”

This is total destruction – for who and what is left behind. This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally destroyed. There are no survivors!

Isaiah 34 is speaking about the physical change that affects the earth, heavens and elements when Jesus comes. Premil has to often change the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words in order to get that doctrine to fit. Premil explains away the literal meaning of text after text and replaces with its alternative definition. This is not the way that Scripture should be approached. This is classic eisegesis. There is so much Scripture that forbids the Premil theory that Premil is forced to spiritualize away the clearest and most literal of Scripture. Ironically it literalizes the one book that is the most symbolic in Scripture (Revelation). This alone is grounds to reject the doctrine.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-44: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

All these refer in the one single final coming of Christ and all show that event to be climactic. The detail they teach interweaves to give us a vivid picture of the end.

2 Peter 3:3-13: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

How possibly could the wicked survive the second coming and escape the universal conflagration and wholesale destruction? Premillennialists are forced to dilute the nature of the devastation, localize its extent to a particular region of the globe or spiritualize away the destruction of the wicked completely as a non-literal abstract allegory.

The Premillennialist claims to be a literalist, but there is no spiritualization that can explain this depiction away. It is so water-tight.

Agree. These scriptures you're sharing are very clear and straightforward. Premils deny that and twist and blatantly manipulate those passages to say something completely different than what they clearly indicate. And, when we look at the parallel account of that same event that Paul gives in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, we can see that God's wrath will be in the form of "sudden destruction" when Jesus returns and it will not go on for a year as The Light is ridiculously claiming.

 

[The Light]

LOL. What has that to do with the question i asked? Where are there 2 raptures in Scripture? Where are 2 raptures likened unto a "fig tree" having "two harvests"? Give us Scripture. Your imaginations mean NOTHING.

LOL. The problem is you don't understand the scripture. Your level of understanding is that of blindman.

Though the Word says that after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, part of Israel will have its blindness removed you are totally clueless of what that means.

We could look at John 10 and see two folds but your response will be something like what do sheep have to do with raptures.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The Lord taught in parables. Only those with eyes to see understand. Others will run around a spiritualize things into what they want the Word to say.

How many times do you want me to address this impotent argument and how many times are you going to avoid it? The fact is you have to avoid because this verse has absolutely nothing to do with some imaginary future Pretrib rapture.

How many times will you claim avoidance when there is none.

If one is to read this portion of Scripture in its most straight-forward and literal way it seems clear that this is specifically speaking to the local church in Philadelphia (Asia Minor) in A.D. 96. There is no way you would instinctively relate it to some end-time global Church prior to the coming of the Lord.

Oh. So now you want to read as literal as possible. And yet you want to do your spiritualization the things you don't understand.

Pretribulationists miss (or ignore) the fact that the promise being given here was actually written to the Philadelphian believers in John’s day. The Philadelphians were firstly commended for their steadfast faithfulness and then secondly, as a result of that, they were promised they would be rewarded by given special protection in the hour of trial. We should not forget that the issue in view here was the brutal persecution of the Christians by the Romans in that day, specifically in Asia Minor. The early Church experienced heavy tribulation throughout the known world where the Roman Empire ruled and reigned in unchallenged power. The obedience that is being documented here (“thou hast kept the word of my patience”) was that of these early Philadelphian believers. The New Living Translation puts it “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere.”
We must establish, who is being protected and when? The Philadelphian Christians are promised protection from the said trial back in biblical times. Jesus assures them “I … will keep thee from the hour of temptation.” Why? On the expressed grounds of their ongoing obedience to God. Their faithfulness is both acknowledge and rewarded: “thou hast kept the word of my patience.” Preservation in the midst of trial was/is a common reality for faithful believers throughout all time. Whilst God’s people have experienced awful persecution through time, it has often been God’s heart in scriptural times and Church history to guard His elect in the midst of adversity rather than remove them from it. We see that throughout Scripture.

This has absolutely nothing to do with some imaginary future Pretrib rapture.

So to you the following verses apply to the Church of Sardis back then and not to others?

Revelation 3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

This does not mean there is going to be 12 months of wrath, as you claim. It simply means: the time of judgment has arrived. The final wrath is sudden, wholesale and totally destructive. No one escapes.

You are confused. What you are talking about is the sudden destruction that occurs when the Lord returns with armies of heaven at Armageddon.

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[The Light]

Notice how his view is based on major assumptions that he makes about passages that make no mention of the rapture whatsoever. His beliefs come only from his imagination. Premils on this forum prove the point I made about the difference between Premils and Amils over and over again. Premil (and pretrib) is based only on assumptions and speculation while Amil is based on many clear, straightforward scriptures. He just proves that yet again in relation to pretrib.

Hosea 9:10 and Revelation 3:10 have absolutely nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture. Only a complete twisting and manipulating of those scriptures can make them have anything to do with the rapture. Where is the clear, straightforward scripture that pretribs reference to support their doctrine? Nowhere. They have none. So, they have to resort to butchering the text of verses like Hosea 9:10 and Revelation 3:10 in order to support their extremely weak doctrine.

The fig tree having two harvests are referring to two raptures.

The two folds of sheep are referring to two raptures

 

[The Light]

Isaiah 34:1-4, 8: “Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree … For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.”

This is total destruction – for who and what is left behind. This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally destroyed. There are no survivors!

Do you not understand that the above event occurs at the 6th seal. The kings of the earth and others are telling the mountains to fall on us and hide us AFTER heaven is rolled up as a scroll and the untimely figs are cast down.

The wrath of God, the 7th seal with the trumpets and vials has not even happened yet. How you no not understand these things?

You think it's all over and wrath has not even begun.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Isaiah 34 is speaking about the physical change that affects the earth, heavens and elements when Jesus comes. Premil has to often change the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words in order to get that doctrine to fit. Premil explains away the literal meaning of text after text and replaces with its alternative definition. This is not the way that Scripture should be approached. This is classic eisegesis. There is so much Scripture that forbids the Premil theory that Premil is forced to spiritualize away the clearest and most literal of Scripture. Ironically it literalizes the one book that is the most symbolic in Scripture (Revelation). This alone is grounds to reject the doctrine.

As I show above.........with scripture..........these events happen at the 6th seal. Wrath hasn't begun and will not begin until the 7th seal is opened.

You know, the 7th that contains the trumpets and vial of wrath that you completely pretend are not there. It is a complete lack of understanding.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-44: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

All these refer in the one single final coming of Christ and all show that event to be climactic. The detail they teach interweaves to give us a vivid picture of the end.

It is the righteous that are removed from the earth and are in heaven as the great multitude. We are there during the marriage supper of the Lamb. Jesus will not leave heaven for Armageddon for one-year.

2 Peter 3:3-13: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

How possibly could the wicked survive the second coming and escape the universal conflagration and wholesale destruction? Premillennialists are forced to dilute the nature of the devastation, localize its extent to a particular region of the globe or spiritualize away the destruction of the wicked completely as a non-literal abstract allegory.

The Premillennialist claims to be a literalist, but there is no spiritualization that can explain this depiction away. It is so water-tight.

Do we skip this verse?

Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

 

[WPM]

The fig tree having two harvests are referring to two raptures.

The two folds of sheep are referring to two raptures

LOL. Where does it say that in the Bible? You keeping on repeating your imaginations means absolutely nothing. Where is your biblical support?

 

[WPM]

The fig tree having two harvests are referring to two raptures.

The two folds of sheep are referring to two raptures

The extra-biblical statements get more and more and the avoided questions get larger and larger:

1. Where is your Pretrib rapture in Revelation?
2. Is Revelation 19 your 3rd rapture?
3. Where is your tribulation period following Matthew 24:44 (or any other rapture passage)?
4. Show us one Scripture that teaches that "the feasts of God are a picture of the end times"?
5. Show me New Testament Scripture that teaches that “there are two harvests? The grain harvest and the fruit harvest”?
6. Where is "the grain harvest" mentioned in the New Testament?
7. Where is "the fruit harvest " mentioned in the New Testament?
8. Where is "the barley harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
9. Where is "the wheat harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
10. Where is all this jargon about "on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast" in the New Testament text or in any rapture passage?
11. Where in the New Testament does it say “there are two raptures – grain and fruit”?
12. Show us any Scripture that teaches there are "two" future "raptures"?
13. Where in the Bible does it teach that "the fig tree having two harvests are referring to two raptures”?
14. Where in the Scriptures does it teach that “the two folds of sheep are referring to two raptures”?
15. Where does it say anywhere in Scripture that “Noah is a picture of the Pretrib rapture” and “Lot is a picture of the Jewish harvest”?
16. Show us any Scripture that teaches "the Church is removed before the great tribulation, which is the time of testing"?
17. Show us any Scripture that teaches there is a "one-year wrath of God"?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The fig tree having two harvests are referring to two raptures.

Where does scripture teach that? Nowhere. So, stop sharing your opinions that you can't support with scripture. It's a waste of time.

The two folds of sheep are referring to two raptures

LOL. You can't be any less discerning than this if you tried. In John 10 the two folds are Jewish believers and Gentile believers who were brought together as one fold by the one shepherd (Jesus). Together as one new man and one body of Christ (Ephesians 2:11-22). Please ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

 

[WPM]

Do you not understand that the above event occurs at the 6th seal. The kings of the earth and others are telling the mountains to fall on us and hide us AFTER heaven is rolled up as a scroll and the untimely figs are cast down.

The wrath of God, the 7th seal with the trumpets and vials has not even happened yet. How you no not understand these things?

You think it's all over and wrath has not even begun.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


As I show above.........with scripture..........these events happen at the 6th seal. Wrath hasn't begun and will not begin until the 7th seal is opened.

You know, the 7th that contains the trumpets and vial of wrath that you completely pretend are not there. It is a complete lack of understanding.


It is the righteous that are removed from the earth and are in heaven as the great multitude. We are there during the marriage supper of the Lamb. Jesus will not leave heaven for Armageddon for one-year.




Do we skip this verse?

Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Typical: trying to explain away the clear repeated New Testament passages with your faulty interpretation of Zechariah 14. You ducked around the literal detail of each - you have to!

Revelation 6:13-17 records: “And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, andhide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally destroyed. This is the end of the world. There are no survivors!

Isaiah 34 is speaking about the physical change that affects the earth, heavens and elements when Jesus comes. Premil has to often change the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words in order to get that doctrine to fit. Premil explains away the literal meaning of text after text and replaces with its alternative definition. This is not the way that Scripture should be approached. This is classic eisegesis. There is so much Scripture that forbids the Premil theory that Premil is forced to spiritualize away the clearest and most literal of Scripture, ironically it literalizes the one book that is the most symbolic in Scripture (Revelation). This alone is grounds to reject the doctrine.

 

[WPM]

LOL. The problem is you don't understand the scripture. Your level of understanding is that of blindman.

Though the Word says that after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, part of Israel will have its blindness removed you are totally clueless of what that means.

We could look at John 10 and see two folds but your response will be something like what do sheep have to do with raptures.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The Lord taught in parables. Only those with eyes to see understand. Others will run around a spiritualize things into what they want the Word to say.


How many times will you claim avoidance when there is none.



Oh. So now you want to read as literal as possible. And yet you want to do your spiritualization the things you don't understand.



So to you the following verses apply to the Church of Sardis back then and not to others?

Revelation 3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

You are confused. What you are talking about is the sudden destruction that occurs when the Lord returns with armies of heaven at Armageddon.

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Where is a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
Where is a 3 1/2 trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Revelation 3:10?

 

[WPM]

LOL. The problem is you don't understand the scripture. Your level of understanding is that of blindman.

Though the Word says that after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, part of Israel will have its blindness removed you are totally clueless of what that means.

We could look at John 10 and see two folds but your response will be something like what do sheep have to do with raptures.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The Lord taught in parables. Only those with eyes to see understand. Others will run around a spiritualize things into what they want the Word to say.


How many times will you claim avoidance when there is none.



Oh. So now you want to read as literal as possible. And yet you want to do your spiritualization the things you don't understand.



So to you the following verses apply to the Church of Sardis back then and not to others?

Revelation 3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

You are confused. What you are talking about is the sudden destruction that occurs when the Lord returns with armies of heaven at Armageddon.

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Once again: there is nothing clear (or ambiguous) here that proves a rapture of the Church, followed by any length of sustained tribulation followed by a 3rd coming, nothing. You need to be taught Pretrib and then force it into this text in order to see that. In fact, you have no proof-text anywhere in Scripture that states this.

What you miss is, the same assurance that we find in Revelation 3:10 is found in our Lord’s Prayer in John 17:15 (only it was written a few years before). The comparison cannot be lightly dismissed as both were penned by the same author in the same biblical time-period. Praying to His Father for His followers He petitioned: “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep [Gr. tēreō] them from [Gr. ek] the evil.”

Christ does not ask the Father to ‘take them out’ of the world with its existing tribulation, suffering and inherent evil, as the Pretrib argues, rather the opposite, but that by the power of His Spirit, He would “keep them from” the surrounding evil. This is the same thought that Christ is presenting in Revelation 3:10. Interestingly, a careful comparison between these two passages reveals the remarkable similarity in their import and word construction.

• “keep [Gr. tēreō] them from [Gr. ek] the evil” (John 17:15)
• “keep [Gr. tēreō] thee from [Gr. ek] the hour of temptation” (Revelation 3:10)

It is God's heart to protect His children. He did it in the OT and He did it in the New Testament. He did it yesterday, He does it today, and He will do it tomorrow. He did not rapture Israel from similar plagues in Egypt. He did not remove Rahab and her family before He destroyed Jericho. No, He preserved His elect and brought them through those fierce times of wrath. He did not remove Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego from the fiery furnace. He did not rescue Daniel from the lion’s den. No, He preserved His elect during times of intense persecution by the enemy.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where is a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
Where is a 3 1/2 trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Revelation 3:10?

The answer is nowhere to all 3 questions, of course. The claim that Revelation 3:10 proves a pre-trib rapture has to be the weakest argument that I've ever seen in relation to anything. Not just the Bible, but anything at all. It's an absolutely ludicrous argument. We're supposed to believe that verse has something to do with taking us out of the world to avoid a time of temptation and evil after Jesus prayed in John 17:15-20 for His followers NOT to be taken out of the world, but to instead be protected from evil? The pre-trib interpretation of Revelation 3:10 blatantly contradicts John 17:15 and they don't even care. It's unbelievable. They have no clear, straightforward scriptures to support their doctrine at all. It's a doctrine full of wild speculation and assumptions and nothing more.

Edit: I posted this before reading your post #857, so I can see we were thinking the same thing.

 

[The Light]

And the blind roll on, without even the slightest clue that the Lord is at the doors. No understanding of scripture. Walking in total blindness as foolish virgins. Believing the utter nonsense that they have been taught by unbelieving men. No eyes to see, no ears to hear.

Faith is believing without seeing. Soon you will believe what your physical eyes see. The lie prepared for you. And you get what you desire, no rapture, no escaping all these things to come to pass. Sad.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And the blind roll on,

Says the blind man.

without even the slightest clue that the Lord is at the doors.

When did we say that we don't believe the Lord is coming soon? I happen to believe that He is, but I don't try to foolishly predict dates like some people do.

No understanding of scripture.

Says the guy who has no understanding of end times scripture. But, you say we have no understanding of scripture at all, eh? Do you even know what I believe apart from end times doctrine? We might agree on some other things for all you know.

Walking in total blindness as foolish virgins.

So, you are saying we are not saved then because the foolish virgins are those who will end up in the lake of fire because Jesus says He doesn't know them. So, you want to take things there, eh? Judge not or you will be judged with the same measure you are judging us.

Believing the utter nonsense that they have been taught by unbelieving men.

What a lie. No one taught me what to believe when it comes to Bible prophecy, but what I learned from others about anything from the Bible certainly didn't come from any unbelievers.

No eyes to see, no ears to hear.

Says the spiritually blind, deaf man who has no understanding of Bible prophecy whatsoever. But, I won't go where you went by condemning you to hell (which is where people like the foolish virgins go). I know better than that. I believe you are a Christian, but just one who knows nothing when it comes to Bible prophecy.

Faith is believing without seeing. Soon you will believe what your physical eyes see. The lie prepared for you. And you get what you desire, no rapture, no escaping all these things to come to pass. Sad.

Why do you just spread lies? Who here has said they don't want to be part of the rapture or to escape the things that scripture says we will escape, which is not what you think, but is only Christ's wrath on the day He returns? No one. Only unbelievers will not be raptured, so you are once again saying that people are not saved simply for disagreeing with your end times doctrine, which is utterly ridiculous. Show me the scripture which teaches that salvation is dependent on one's end times doctrine? You can't do it.