PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS

[rebuilder 454]

That is one sorry... excuse to NOT heed Lord Jesus' Own Words there in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 about the events of His future return and gathering of His Church AFTER the tribulation.

The last phrase of Matt.24:31 is about the gathering of the 'asleep' saints which Paul said Jesus will bring with Him from the heavenly. Paul said they will be RESURRECTED first (1 Thess.4:13-16).

Then the last phrase of Mark 13:27 is about the gathering of the saints that are still alive on earth, the very 1 Thess.4:17 Scripture that Paul taught.

That Jesus mentioned His angels will be involved in that gathering does not change those Scriptures being about His coming after the trib, and gathering of His saints to Himself.

So true.
After the 7 yr 70th week ( postrib) Jesus gathers us from heaven as your verse indicates.

 

[rebuilder 454]

s

Thank you for your opinion.

Jesus words conveyed.
Just reporting Jesus words ,no matter what others opinions are.

 

[No Pre-TB]

No matter where we are at on the Eschatological time line, the return of Christ has always been imminent.

Paul refuted immanence in 2 Thess 2. Please take a look at the word enistemi in verse 2. Enistemi is only used in the present or future tense. Never the past.

Paul was not telling the Thessalonians that they had missed a rapture/resurrection (past tense). Rather, Paul was telling them Christ could not come very soon or at least in the near future because two prerequisites must come first. And until those two prerequisites happen, he remains in heaven till the time for the restoration of all things per Acts 3:21

 

[No Pre-TB]

s
Jesus words conveyed.
Just reporting Jesus words ,no matter what others opinions are.

You didn’t report Jesus’s words, there was no citation. You convey your own opinion. Thank you for your opinion.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You didn’t report Jesus’s words, there was no citation. You convey your own opinion. Thank you for your opinion.

Just rest that Jesus preached pretrib but in your mind of omission, Jesus never said it.

You could care less if I did post them.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Paul refuted immanence in 2 Thess 2. Please take a look at the word enistemi in verse 2. Enistemi is only used in the present or future tense. Never the past.

Paul was not telling the Thessalonians that they had missed a rapture/resurrection (past tense). Rather, Paul was telling them Christ could not come very soon or at least in the near future because two prerequisites must come first. And until those two prerequisites happen, he remains in heaven till the time for the restoration of all things per Acts 3:21

I am pretrib and adhere closely to what Paul said.
1) falling away.
2) the A C REVEALED.
( Not in power, JUST REVEALED)
....AHEM...AS IN REVEALED , THEN the rapture the next day.

Pretrib rapture is the only position that adheres to the bible.
You guys omit or Reframe over six or eight verses to make your doctrine fit

 

[The Light]

The fact the 144k are redeemed tells us they are part of the church. I believe they will be part of the resurrection or rapture, but a single event that includes all the dead and living at that 1 time.

I wanted to add something.

We can prove that your contention is incorrect because of the following verses.

Revelation 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The scripture says that the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth and are before the throne as first fruits. First fruits are presented to the priest.

So this example of the 144,000 prove that there are raptures that occur that are not on the last day.

 

[No Pre-TB]

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

I don’t see a rapture here. Christ is only mentioning that there will be a time of deception where people follow false Christ. And all that he is saying is don’t be deceived when I come everyone will know it because he will shine like lightning, which is bright over the heavens where everyone will see it and they will know it. Not an hidden event.

Daniel 12 is about the people of Daniel.

The text actually reads all his people, “everyone written in the book”. Are you written in the book of life? Then you are part of his people. Is your father, father Abraham as Paul points out? Then you are of the same people for there is no difference between Jew or Greek we are all one of the same fold in Christ. All the tribes from every nation ever will have people in the book. The family of God

And we know the great tribulation is not the wrath of God.

Then why did you say that there is a resurrection/rapture before the sixth seal and at the 6th seal if none of that is wrath? If the great tribulation happens at the six seal, according to you, what purpose would there be to resurrect anyone years or months before that when it’s not wrath?

 

[No Pre-TB]

I am pretrib and adhere closely to what Paul said.
1) falling away.
2) the A C REVEALED.
( Not in power, JUST REVEALED)
....AHEM...AS IN REVEALED , THEN the rapture the next day.

Pretrib rapture is the only position that adheres to the bible.
You guys omit or Reframe over six or eight verses to make your doctrine fit

I don’t know who “you guys are”. I’m responsible for myself, not others. Just as you are responsible for yourself and I don’t include your opinion with every other pre-trib opinion. I would hope you would treat me and others with the same grace.

If you believe 2 Thessalonians 2 does indicate that an apostasy has to happen first, then the man of sin will be revealed, our gathering together unto him at his Parousia does not fit on a typical pre-tribulation timeline. Because mainstream pre-tribulation has the resurrection happen before the apostasy, and before the man is revealed. I find it a bit distorted because some believe that during that time it is the wrath of God instead of it being a time of testing and it’s during this time of testing that apostasy happens greatly as it’s said if you strike your brother and eat and drink with the drunken, he will come at a time you do not know and cast you into outer darkness, there’ll be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

There is a probational time and there is a time of final judgment. During the probation time is when people have a chance to fix what is wrong condemnation is final judgment. It’s when there is no more arbitration no more due process. It’s what we see in the bowls. That’s why, at the very end when we see hail coming out of heaven in the last bowls, it’s symbolic of being stoned from heaven -that is final judgment on the wicked whereas the trumpets they are given warnings and asked to persevere through temptation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We call that........this isn't the only thread he has asked those questions in.

We call that..........look how many times he claims other posters have not answered him, when they have. That's all he's got.

All you did was whine that he asked for New Testament scripture in his questions because you had none. You never answered those questions. Why do you say you did?

And you know that he changed the translation of the Word of God in past to fool Christians and was caught. And you defended this action.

He did no such thing. There isn't just one translation, so how can you accuse someone of changing something if they were not even using the same translation?

 

[The Light]

I don’t see a rapture here. Christ is only mentioning that there will be a time of deception where people follow false Christ. And all that he is saying is don’t be deceived when I come everyone will know it because he will shine like lightning, which is bright over the heavens where everyone will see it and they will know it. Not an hidden event.

So you do not see a rapture when Jesus comes as lightning in His day.

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Here is Jesus coming as lightning. Do you see a rapture in the following verses? This is the gathering from heaven and earth.......a rapture that occurs at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The text actually reads all his people, “everyone written in the book”. Are you written in the book of life? Then you are part of his people. Is your father, father Abraham as Paul points out? Then you are of the same people for there is no difference between Jew or Greek we are all one of the same fold in Christ. All the tribes from every nation ever will have people in the book. The family of God

The verses in Daniel 12 are talking about the great tribulation. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. This is when the people of Daniel are delivered, dead and alive. Then the 7th seal is opened, and the wrath of God begins.

Then why did you say that there is a resurrection/rapture before the sixth seal and at the 6th seal if none of that is wrath?

There is a resurrection/rapture after the 6th seal is opened. I'm sure you are familiar with "Immediately after the tribulation of those days".

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The 7th seal is the wrath of God.

The great tribulation is when the beast kills Christians for not taking the mark. The wrath of God, 7th seal, is God pouring out vengeance on an evil unbelieving world. The great tribulation and wrath of God are not the same thing.

If the great tribulation happens at the six seal, according to you,

No. The great tribulation happens at the 5th seal. Here is the great tribulation.

Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

When Jesus comes at the 6th seal and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth, the tribulation is over.

what purpose would there be to resurrect anyone years or months before that when it’s not wrath?

When Jesus comes at the 6th seal, He is coming for the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman. This is a harvest prior to the wrath of God. The 144,000 first fruits from twelve tribes are first fruits of this harvest. Then the one year, 7th seal, wrath of God begins.

The reason there is a rapture at the 6th seal is because believers are not appointed to wrath. Jesus removes those that are still alive, as the great tribulation is cut short. If it was not cut short, there would be no flesh alive that would be raptured to heaven. All those raptured would come out of the grave.

 

[The Light]

So true.
After the 7 yr 70th week ( postrib) Jesus gathers us from heaven as your verse indicates.

This is not correct.

The gathering from heaven and earth occurs at the 6th seal. The great tribulation is over, and the 7th seal is opened, and the wrath of God begins.

Yeah it's truly post trib which is pre wrath. All these people that think they are post trib are really post wrath.

 

[The Light]

All you did was whine that he asked for New Testament scripture in his questions because you had none. You never answered those questions. Why do you say you did?

This is not the only thread he asked those questions in.

He did no such thing. There isn't just one translation, so how can you accuse someone of changing something if they were not even using the same translation?

Do foolish virgins fear God?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is not the only thread he asked those questions in.

In which thread did you answer those questions?

Do foolish virgins fear God?

What kind of question is this? Don't play games with me. What is the point of this question?

 

[The Light]

In which thread did you answer those questions?

No clue.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No clue.

So, after all the whining you did about him limiting most of the questions to New Testament scripture, you ended up answering them, after all? That seems unlikely. Did you actually provide New Testament scriptures to answer the questions?

 

[The Light]

So, after all the whining you did about him limiting most of the questions to New Testament scripture, you ended up answering them, after all? That seems unlikely. Did you actually provide New Testament scriptures to answer the questions?

I answered them using the Old Testament and then he changed the questions to New Testament only. So my answer is:

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[rebuilder 454]

I don’t know who “you guys are”. I’m responsible for myself, not others. Just as you are responsible for yourself and I don’t include your opinion with every other pre-trib opinion. I would hope you would treat me and others with the same grace.

If you believe 2 Thessalonians 2 does indicate that an apostasy has to happen first, then the man of sin will be revealed, our gathering together unto him at his Parousia does not fit on a typical pre-tribulation timeline. Because mainstream pre-tribulation has the resurrection happen before the apostasy, and before the man is revealed. I find it a bit distorted because some believe that during that time it is the wrath of God instead of it being a time of testing and it’s during this time of testing that apostasy happens greatly as it’s said if you strike your brother and eat and drink with the drunken, he will come at a time you do not know and cast you into outer darkness, there’ll be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

There is a probational time and there is a time of final judgment. During the probation time is when people have a chance to fix what is wrong condemnation is final judgment. It’s when there is no more arbitration no more due process. It’s what we see in the bowls. That’s why, at the very end when we see hail coming out of heaven in the last bowls, it’s symbolic of being stoned from heaven -that is final judgment on the wicked whereas the trumpets they are given warnings and asked to persevere through temptation.

QUOTE
"If you believe 2 Thessalonians 2 does indicate that an apostasy has to happen first, then the man of sin will be revealed, our gathering together unto him at his Parousia does not fit on a typical pre-tribulation timeline. "

Fits perfectly.
The AC REVEALED.
Not taking power yet.
Then the rapture a few days weeks months later.
Ahem....definitely pretrib.
Falling away first.
Yep look around. We see a definite falling away.

But a postrib prewrath middle of Daniel's 70th week?
That position has never fit.
Jesus words " Normal life, Commerce, every day Life, planning for the future".
. None of that fits the prewrath post trib position at all
Plus the "half taken " words of Jesus is the rapture of the bride for sure.
....unless you still think that Earth's population is half righteous and half wicked, and that there would be 2 men in a bed. One wicked with the antichrist tattoo ,and a worshipper of satan in bed with a righteous just man.
Amazing what one must do to Jesus words for doctrine sake!!!!!
Yikes!!!!!

 

[rebuilder 454]

This is not correct.

The gathering from heaven and earth occurs at the 6th seal. The great tribulation is over, and the 7th seal is opened, and the wrath of God begins.

Yeah it's truly post trib which is pre wrath. All these people that think they are post trib are really post wrath.

"Postrib".... is post Daniel's 70th week
7yr trib....7 yr tribulation
Jacob's trouble.
All one.
Daniel confirms it as one.
69 weeks transpired

I week in the future.
Daniel says " in the MIDDLE OF IT" ( the middle of the 7 yr trib/middle of the 70th week) , the ac preforms the AOD.

JESUS SAID the Innumerable number that no man can count was found in heaven as martyrs.
And this is more or less at the beginning of the tribulation. and they are said to have come out of great tribulation.
So I get a totally different set of definitions than what you're talking about.
Is there wrath at the last part of the 7 year tribulation?
Yes, there is, but it still one set of 7 years and that is the tribulation or great tribulation, whatever you wanna call it.
But it is one set of 7 years.

 

[The Light]

If you believe 2 Thessalonians 2 does indicate that an apostasy has to happen first, then the man of sin will be revealed, our gathering together unto him at his Parousia does not fit on a typical pre-tribulation timeline. Because mainstream pre-tribulation has the resurrection happen before the apostasy, and before the man is revealed.

Exactly. And yet when we realize that there are two raptures, everything fits perfectly.

The Church will escape all these things which will come to pass and stand before the Son of Man. This of course happens before the man of sin is revealed and the gathering takes place.

God then turns His attention to the Jews. Before the gathering from heaven and earth occurs at the 6th seal, the man of sin will be revealed.

I find it a bit distorted because some believe that during that time it is the wrath of God instead of it being a time of testing and it’s during this time of testing that apostasy happens greatly as it’s said if you strike your brother and eat and drink with the drunken, he will come at a time you do not know and cast you into outer darkness, there’ll be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Correct. That time.......the great tribulation............is not the wrath of God. The great tribulation is the 5th seal. The coming of Jesus for the gathering from heaven and earth occurs after the 6th seal is opened. The 7th seal is Gods wrath.

The Church is removed before the great tribulation, which is the time of testing. The seed of the woman, the 12 twelve tribes across the earth are removed before the wrath of God.

There is a probational time and there is a time of final judgment. During the probation time is when people have a chance to fix what is wrong condemnation is final judgment. It’s when there is no more arbitration no more due process. It’s what we see in the bowls. That’s why, at the very end when we see hail coming out of heaven in the last bowls, it’s symbolic of being stoned from heaven -that is final judgment on the wicked whereas the trumpets they are given warnings and asked to persevere through temptation.

This is totally wrong. First off, the trumpets and vials happen in the same timeframe. That time frame is the 7th seal.

The Church is in heaven before the great tribulation.
The 12 tribes across the earth are raptured from the earth at the 6th seal.

Who is on the earth during Gods wrath? Those on the earth are the unrighteous that the Lord will take vengeance on, the two witnesses, and the woman, Israel that has fled to a place of protection.

Both folds become one-fold are in heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb during the one-year wrath of God.