PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS

[WPM]

It says they are redeemed from the earth and are first fruits and before the throne.

First fruits are gathered and presented to the priest. You do the math.


That's because we will escape the hour of temptation that will come on all the world. If you are looking for todays Church in the seals, trumpet of vials of Revelation you won't find it. First three chapters of Revelation.........Church..... Church,..... Church...... Church.....
Church,.....Church..... Church,..... Church...... Church.....Church,..... Beginning chapter 4 no mention of the Church.........you do the math.
Church
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

What has Rev 4 to do with it? Where is your rapture there?

 

[WPM]

It's good to have you back. Deny, Deny, Deny.

The reader can see the link, and see how you avoided every question.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

My quote is below. I don't see where is said "there is no Mount Zion in heaven." Jesus is on Mount Sion which is on the earth. The 144,000 are on the earth also. Then they get redeemed FROM the earth. That is when they become 1st fruits as they are presented before the throne of God.

"Mount Sion is not in heaven. I guess you missed the part where the 144,000 are redeemed FROM the earth."


You act like this is my first rodeo. Do you actually think this is the first time someone has tried to claim that the 144,000 are not on the earth but on Mount Zion in heaven? Please.




Or you have changed my words as we can see above.

You throw that word liar around like you have no fear of God.


Wow. Congratulations. You got it. The 144,000 were on the earth with Jesus on Mount Sion and were redeemed from the earth. They become first fruits of the second fold.

My quote is below. I don't see where is said "there is no Mount Zion in heaven." Jesus is on Mount Sion which is on the earth. The 144,000 are on the earth also. Then they get redeemed FROM the earth. That is when they become 1st fruits as they are presented before the throne of God.

"Mount Sion is not in heaven. I guess you missed the part where the 144,000 are redeemed FROM the earth."

Where did you give any indication here that you believed there is a Mount Zion in heaven? Nowhere that I can see.

The 144,000 firstfruits are not on the earth. They are before the throne and that is in heaven. Where do you come up with this stuff?

You act like this is my first rodeo.

You act like it is, so it might as well be.

Do you actually think this is the first time someone has tried to claim that the 144,000 are not on the earth but on Mount Zion in heaven? Please.

I couldn't care less about that. You have NOTHING to show otherwise. Christ hasn't returned yet as of Revelation 14, so He can't be on the earth yet at that point.

Or you have changed my words as we can see above.

You throw that word liar around like you have no fear of God.

You lied about answering WPM's questions when I know with 100% certainty that you did not. You are the one lacking a fear of God because of your blatant lies. You specifically said "Mount Sion is not in heaven". How can you not know that comes across as if you believe there is one Mount Sion and that you believe it's on earth and not in heaven? Hello? Why do you have such trouble being honest? You need to repent of that.

Wow. Congratulations. You got it. The 144,000 were on the earth with Jesus on Mount Sion and were redeemed from the earth. They become first fruits of the second fold.

Now, you're lying yet again by acting as if I agreed with you that the 144,000 were on the earth with Jesus on Mount Zion. I said no such thing! Repent of your lying! Do you know what scripture says about habitual, unrepentant liars?

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What has Rev 4 to do with it? Where is your rapture there?

He does nothing but make things up. I can't take him seriously even a tiny bit.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

I suggest you start fearing the Lord then because you are very lacking in wisdom. Did you know that you can ask Him for wisdom and He will give it to you if you don't doubt (James 1:5-7)? Please do that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I am close to putting you on ignore.
Hopefully you will step up, and not keep doing what you do.
I am not here to play your games.

LOL. I'm sure he is devastated about this. You say you're not here to play his games. Maybe so. But, you're definitely here to play your own games.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

More avoidance. The reader can see for themselves. You have no answer to the truth. Scripture destroys Pretrib.

Of all the different doctrines that Christians believe (not just end times, but any doctrines), pretrib is easily the weakest, in my opinion. I can't take it seriously at all as a legitimate doctrine to debate against. It's utter foolishness.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Anyone that has engaged with Pretribbers on forums like this will know that they cannot furnish us with one single proof text to support their teaching. They cannot show you where in Scripture teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord.

Sure we can and do, but like the Pharisees, you HEAR NOTHING, because you already have YOUR ANSWERS which are of other men (Men's Traditions) or your own studies led you astray.

The Coming of the Lord is a great example of how you guys take singular issues and blow them out of proportion when not using the proper context.

It is not about a 2nd Coming per se, its about Jesus TWO ADVENTS or God Ordained Administrations on this earth. You are confusion the 2 Advents (Meely Lamb and Roaring Lion of Judah) with Jesus only coming t earth twice, that is too funny, did you not know that Jesus had to go to Heaven, offer himself as a pure sacrifice before God, then je returned with the holy spirit as a gift. If you knew the Jewish/Galilean Wedding Patterns, you would understand all this, the bride has to be given a gift, she has to be betrothed as we the church are. She has to be washed in a ceremonial washing (think Baptism) the bride ha a price to the father, Jesus blood bought us. The son chooses the bride "You did not chose me I choose you". The Bride must consent "He who believes and is baptized will be saved".

Here is the most important info however......

The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36)

So, all these are well know facts. I John 20, we see that Mary saw Jesus after he was raised and he told her "Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended unto the Father" Then 8 days later Jesus told Doubting Thomas to touch his wounds, meaning he had offered the Sacrifice. God the Father's glory is so massive that Mary merely touching Jesus and THE SACRIFICIAL OFFERING would have been defiled. We see Jesus in Gen. 18 and 19 as the man Abraham called Lord and again in Dan. 12 as the Man in LINEN. Jesus does not just come to earth twice, he only comes as the Meek Lamb ONCE and as the Roaring Lion of Judah ONCE.

So, your whole premise is off kilter to start with.

They cannot show you where in Scripture teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord. That is because it does not exist. It is a man-made doctrine. They seem incapable of recognizing that there is only one final future coming of the Lord. That event will see Jesus coming literally, physically and visibly "with" and "for" His people. Multiple Scripture proves that He will rescue all His elect and then destroy all the wicked. This is shown to be the end!

The clueless generation should get a nae tag also.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It says they are redeemed from the earth and are first fruits and before the throne.

You know there is such thing as spiritual redemption and that the first Christians were called "a kind of firstfruits" (James 1:18) and their souls are in heaven now and that God's throne is in heaven, don't you?

That's because we will escape the hour of temptation that will come on all the world.

Nonsense. Where does scripture ever say that we will escape temptation and testing? Never! You are directly contradicting Jesus's prayer for His people...

John 17:15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

God is fully capable of protecting us from temptation and trials while we are in the world, which is why Jesus prayed that God the Faahter would not take us out of the world but instead to protect us. Here you are directly contradicting Jesus and teaching that we will be taken out of the world to avoid temptation when He prayed that we would NOT be taken out of the world, but protected from evil while still in the world.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sure we can and do, but like the Pharisees, you HEAR NOTHING, because you already have YOUR ANSWERS which are of other men (Men's Traditions) or your own studies led you astray.

The Coming of the Lord is a great example of how you guys take singular issues and blow them out of proportion when not using the proper context.

It is not about a 2nd Coming per se, its about Jesus TWO ADVENTS or God Ordained Administrations on this earth. You are confusion the 2 Advents (Meely Lamb and Roaring Lion of Judah) with Jesus only coming t earth twice, that is too funny, did you not know that Jesus had to go to Heaven, offer himself as a pure sacrifice before God, then je returned with the holy spirit as a gift. If you knew the Jewish/Galilean Wedding Patterns, you would understand all this, the bride has to be given a gift, she has to be betrothed as we the church are. She has to be washed in a ceremonial washing (think Baptism) the bride ha a price to the father, Jesus blood bought us. The son chooses the bride "You did not chose me I choose you". The Bride must consent "He who believes and is baptized will be saved".

Here is the most important info however......

The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36)

So, all these are well know facts. I John 20, we see that Mary saw Jesus after he was raised and he told her "Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended unto the Father" Then 8 days later Jesus told Doubting Thomas to touch his wounds, meaning he had offered the Sacrifice. God the Father's glory is so massive that Mary merely touching Jesus and THE SACRIFICIAL OFFERING would have been defiled. We see Jesus in Gen. 18 and 19 as the man Abraham called Lord and again in Dan. 12 as the Man in LINEN. Jesus does not just come to earth twice, he only comes as the Meek Lamb ONCE and as the Roaring Lion of Judah ONCE.

So, your whole premise is off kilter to start with.

The clueless generation should get a nae tag also.

Well, that's as clear as mud. Typical nonsensical pre-trib argument.

 

[WPM]

Sure we can and do, but like the Pharisees, you HEAR NOTHING, because you already have YOUR ANSWERS which are of other men (Men's Traditions) or your own studies led you astray.

The Coming of the Lord is a great example of how you guys take singular issues and blow them out of proportion when not using the proper context.

It is not about a 2nd Coming per se, its about Jesus TWO ADVENTS or God Ordained Administrations on this earth. You are confusion the 2 Advents (Meely Lamb and Roaring Lion of Judah) with Jesus only coming t earth twice, that is too funny, did you not know that Jesus had to go to Heaven, offer himself as a pure sacrifice before God, then je returned with the holy spirit as a gift. If you knew the Jewish/Galilean Wedding Patterns, you would understand all this, the bride has to be given a gift, she has to be betrothed as we the church are. She has to be washed in a ceremonial washing (think Baptism) the bride ha a price to the father, Jesus blood bought us. The son chooses the bride "You did not chose me I choose you". The Bride must consent "He who believes and is baptized will be saved".

Here is the most important info however......

The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36)

So, all these are well know facts. I John 20, we see that Mary saw Jesus after he was raised and he told her "Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended unto the Father" Then 8 days later Jesus told Doubting Thomas to touch his wounds, meaning he had offered the Sacrifice. God the Father's glory is so massive that Mary merely touching Jesus and THE SACRIFICIAL OFFERING would have been defiled. We see Jesus in Gen. 18 and 19 as the man Abraham called Lord and again in Dan. 12 as the Man in LINEN. Jesus does not just come to earth twice, he only comes as the Meek Lamb ONCE and as the Roaring Lion of Judah ONCE.

So, your whole premise is off kilter to start with.

The clueless generation should get a nae tag also.

Once again: there is nothing clear (or ambiguous) here that proves a rapture of the Church, followed by any length of sustained tribulation followed by a 3rd coming, nothing. You need to be taught Pretrib and then force it into this text in order to see that. In fact, you have no proof-text anywhere in Scripture that states this.

 

[The Light]

What has Rev 4 to do with it? Where is your rapture there?

You were unable to do the math.

 

[WPM]

You were unable to do the math.

LOL. Again, no evidence, only what your teachers have indoctrinated you with, and which you cannot prove.

 

[WPM]

It says they are redeemed from the earth and are first fruits and before the throne.

First fruits are gathered and presented to the priest. You do the math.


That's because we will escape the hour of temptation that will come on all the world. If you are looking for todays Church in the seals, trumpet of vials of Revelation you won't find it. First three chapters of Revelation.........Church..... Church,..... Church...... Church.....
Church,.....Church..... Church,..... Church...... Church.....Church,..... Beginning chapter 4 no mention of the Church.........you do the math.
Church
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The Church is found throughout the tribulation period.

The Church is described as the “saints” in Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9.

The New Testament uses the term “saint” some 59 times, repeatedly describing Christians who walk in newness of life. The objective Bible student can quickly discern that this name consistently pertains to true believers in the New Testament.

The Church is described in Revelation as the “redeemed” in Revelation 5:9, 14:3 and 14:4.

The New Testament makes it abundantly clear that Christians alone are “redeemed” through the blood of Jesus Christ (Luke 1:68, 24:21, Gal 3:13, 4:5. Titus 2:14 and 1 Peter 1:18). The unregenerate have not partook in this life-changing experience.

The Church is also known in Revelation, like elsewhere in Scriptures, as the “brethren” Such references are found in Revelation 6:11, 12:10, 19:10, 22:9.

The Church is referred to in Revelation 17:14 as the “chosen (or elect), and faithful.”

The word rendered “chosen” in the King James Version is the Greek word eklektos, and is the same word used in Matthew and Mark to describe the elect that are gathered unto Christ at His coming after the tribulation. It is the same word that is used 23 times in the New Testament to denote the redeemed, blood-bought, members of Christ’s Church!

The Church is described as “servants” in Revelation 1:1, 2:20, 7:3, 10:7, 11:18, 19:2, 19:5, 22:3 and 22:6.

The Church is described as those “in / with white robes,” who are washed in the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 3:4, 5, 18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 13, 14, and 19:8, 14.

The Church is described as “kings and priests” in Revelation 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6.

God’s people are described as “souls” twice in Revelation, both in a heavenly context, both thus relating to the disembodied saints, in Revelation 6:9 and 20:4.

The disembodied saints are also known as “fellowservants” in Revelation 6:11.

The Church is also described as a “woman” in Revelation 12:1,4, 6,13,15,16 and 17.

The Church is also described as “the temple” in Revelation 3:12, 11:1 and 2. Notwithstanding, there are other passages in Revelation that could link the temple to the Church.

The Church in heaven is described in Revelation 14:13 as “the dead which die in the Lord.”

The Church is described in Revelation 15:2 as “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark.”

The Church is also known in Revelation as “he/him that overcometh” (speaking in generic terms) – Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21 and 21:7.

The saints are described in Revelation 16:15 as “he that watcheth, and keepeth their garments.”

The Church is also expressed in Revelation 18:4 as “my people,” in Revelation 21:3 as “his people” and Revelation 19:1 as “much people in heaven.”

Revelation 7:9 describes God’s people in heaven as “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.” Revelation 5:9 says: “out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

The Church is also described as “the bride” of Christ in Revelation 18:23, 21:9, 22:17, and similarly as “the Lamb's wife” in Revelation 19:7 and 21:9.

Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 21:14 describes the Church as “they that do/keep God’s commandments.”

The Church is also described as “the armies which were in heaven” in Revelation 19:14.

Revelation 21:24 describes the Church as “them which are saved.”

Revelation 21:27 describes the Church as “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.”

Most of the above are familiar terms used to describe the universal Church of Jesus Christ are found elsewhere in the Bible (Old and New Testament) describing God’s people the Church. These are general terms that are commonly used and perfectly understood by all sensible Christians as describing God’s chosen people throughout the centuries and throughout the nations.

There are many different references throughout the whole book of Revelation to the existence, testimony and endurance of Christians during the tribulation period. These saints are described as those that possess “the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6). Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

A passage that ably supports this supposition and locates the Christian in the tribulation period is Revelation 14:12-13, which says, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

The “patience of the saints” here in Revelation 14:12 must surely be linked to the “patience of Jesus” in Revelation 1:9.

The means by which these saints overcome the devil, the world and the flesh during great tribulation is the exact same as that employed by Christians throughout history. Those Christians that carry “the testimony of Jesus” in the tribulation are seen to conquer Satan by “the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony” (Revelation 12:11), again, confirming their sure unitary position within the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You were unable to do the math.

The math for pretrib as it relates to Revelation 4:1 is one person equating to the entire church. Now, that is some fuzzy math.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Church is found throughout the tribulation period.

The Church is described as the “saints” in Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9.

The New Testament uses the term “saint” some 59 times, repeatedly describing Christians who walk in newness of life. The objective Bible student can quickly discern that this name consistently pertains to true believers in the New Testament.

The Church is described in Revelation as the “redeemed” in Revelation 5:9, 14:3 and 14:4.

The New Testament makes it abundantly clear that Christians alone are “redeemed” through the blood of Jesus Christ (Luke 1:68, 24:21, Gal 3:13, 4:5. Titus 2:14 and 1 Peter 1:18). The unregenerate have not partook in this life-changing experience.

The Church is also known in Revelation, like elsewhere in Scriptures, as the “brethren” Such references are found in Revelation 6:11, 12:10, 19:10, 22:9.

The Church is referred to in Revelation 17:14 as the “chosen (or elect), and faithful.”

The word rendered “chosen” in the King James Version is the Greek word eklektos, and is the same word used in Matthew and Mark to describe the elect that are gathered unto Christ at His coming after the tribulation. It is the same word that is used 23 times in the New Testament to denote the redeemed, blood-bought, members of Christ’s Church!

The Church is described as “servants” in Revelation 1:1, 2:20, 7:3, 10:7, 11:18, 19:2, 19:5, 22:3 and 22:6.

The Church is described as those “in / with white robes,” who are washed in the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 3:4, 5, 18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 13, 14, and 19:8, 14.

The Church is described as “kings and priests” in Revelation 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6.

God’s people are described as “souls” twice in Revelation, both in a heavenly context, both thus relating to the disembodied saints, in Revelation 6:9 and 20:4.

The disembodied saints are also known as “fellowservants” in Revelation 6:11.

The Church is also described as a “woman” in Revelation 12:1,4, 6,13,15,16 and 17.

The Church is also described as “the temple” in Revelation 3:12, 11:1 and 2. Notwithstanding, there are other passages in Revelation that could link the temple to the Church.

The Church in heaven is described in Revelation 14:13 as “the dead which die in the Lord.”

The Church is described in Revelation 15:2 as “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark.”

The Church is also known in Revelation as “he/him that overcometh” (speaking in generic terms) – Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21 and 21:7.

The saints are described in Revelation 16:15 as “he that watcheth, and keepeth their garments.”

The Church is also expressed in Revelation 18:4 as “my people,” in Revelation 21:3 as “his people” and Revelation 19:1 as “much people in heaven.”

Revelation 7:9 describes God’s people in heaven as “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.” Revelation 5:9 says: “out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

The Church is also described as “the bride” of Christ in Revelation 18:23, 21:9, 22:17, and similarly as “the Lamb's wife” in Revelation 19:7 and 21:9.

Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 21:14 describes the Church as “they that do/keep God’s commandments.”

The Church is also described as “the armies which were in heaven” in Revelation 19:14.

Revelation 21:24 describes the Church as “them which are saved.”

Revelation 21:27 describes the Church as “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.”

Most of the above are familiar terms used to describe the universal Church of Jesus Christ are found elsewhere in the Bible (Old and New Testament) describing God’s people the Church. These are general terms that are commonly used and perfectly understood by all sensible Christians as describing God’s chosen people throughout the centuries and throughout the nations.

There are many different references throughout the whole book of Revelation to the existence, testimony and endurance of Christians during the tribulation period. These saints are described as those that possess “the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6). Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

A passage that ably supports this supposition and locates the Christian in the tribulation period is Revelation 14:12-13, which says, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

The “patience of the saints” here in Revelation 14:12 must surely be linked to the “patience of Jesus” in Revelation 1:9.

The means by which these saints overcome the devil, the world and the flesh during great tribulation is the exact same as that employed by Christians throughout history. Those Christians that carry “the testimony of Jesus” in the tribulation are seen to conquer Satan by “the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony” (Revelation 12:11), again, confirming their sure unitary position within the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ.

Well said. The claim by pretribs that the church on earth is not referenced at all between Revelation 4 and Revelation 19 is completely absurd.

 

[David in NJ]

I am close to putting you on ignore.
Hopefully you will step up, and not keep doing what you do.
I am not here to play your games.

What about this

For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom, and storm; 19to a trumpet blast or to a voice that made its hearers beg that no further word be spoken. 20For they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” 21The sight was so terrifying that even Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.”

22Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels 23in joyful assembly, to the congregation of the firstborn, enrolled in heaven. You have come to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

25See to it that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if the people did not escape when they refused Him who warned them on earth, how much less will we escape if we reject Him who warns us from heaven? 26At that time His voice shook the earth, but now He has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth, but heaven as well.” 27The words “Once more” signify the removal of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that the unshakable may remain.

28Therefore, since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us be filled with gratitude, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe. 29“For our God is a consuming fire.”

 

[Douggg]

Well then Douggg what do we call those dead people who are resurrected at the 2nd Resurrection (the wicked peoples judgment? are their souls not sleeping?)

No their souls are not sleeping. Read the story Jesus told about Lazarus and the rich man, Luke 16:19-26. The implication is that there is some place where the souls of the wicked go, until the Great White Throne Judgment takes place.

 

[WPM]

The math for pretrib as it relates to Revelation 4:1 is one person equating to the entire church. Now, that is some fuzzy math.

The whole thing is an invented Jesuit joke!

 

[David in NJ]

You were unable to do the math.

God's Math Formula that leads to Salvation: 1+1=2

God's Math Formula from the OT = Joseph