Jim B
Well-Known Member
Have you ever been to a church service? People often pray together, reciting "The Lord's Prayer", for example.
And there is no such word as "choas".
problem related to praying in tongues
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And there is no such word as "choas".
Jim B
Well-Known Member
To you, it's clearly exaggeration/hyperbole. To others, myself included, it is Paul writing very clearly, accurately, and truthfully.
Indeed... there is no such "Choas".... with the Lords Prayer...
Listen to what Jesus is telling you....
Your... So.... what if your love ones is dying.... Maybe even Your only Child... or your Spouse... How did Jesus tell you to pray???
Mat 6:9 "Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 'Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.
In what way do you pray.... God... my will be done...and save my only dying child/spouse... or do you pray... Your will be done ???
Jesus prayed just like so many of us over time....
Mat 26:38 Then He *said to them, "My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death; remain here and keep watch with Me."
Mat 26:39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."
Pay attention... Jesus did not want to die... as Jesus wanted to... "Let this cup pass" ... But trusted God to know what's best... How much more so for our lost ones...
Paul
Jim B
Well-Known Member
Why are you going so far off topic? The discussion is about praying in tongues.
Regarding Matthew 6:9, His disciples asked Him how they should pray, and He told them. Now let's get back to the OP subject, okay?
Yea it's accurate, clear and truthful.
Which is why it would also follow that speaking in tongues of men and angels is hypothetical.. 'if I could do this'
Having faith to move a mountain was hypothetical.. so then is tongues of men and angels. With the angels part being the hypothetical part.
Then there is the question of when Paul writes of speaking in mysteries to God.. and no one understands...
Is this the best way to be practicing tongues?
Because later Paul admonishes the Corinthians to have an interpreter so the rest of the congregation can be encouraged by the Word being uttered.
So.. the scripture of speaking in mysteries.. needs further context
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Right.
And praying in tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
Would the Spirit do that in violation of God's will?
Jim B
Well-Known Member
Your "if ... then logic" is flawed. You just make hypothetical what you want to be hypothetical. How do you know what is actually hypothetical and what isn't? Maybe faith can move mountains! And angels are not hypothetical!
Paul writes about speaking in tongues in two separate places: privately and in a congregation. There is no further context needed if you read carefully with an open mind.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
There seems to be some confusion about the different kinds/uses of tongues.
A personal prayer language is different than a word in tongues delivered to a congregation.
Five Different Uses of Tongues
1) Personal prayer language (worship/edification)
2) Intercessory prayer language
3) A prophetic message for a congregation
4) Warfare prayer in the Spirit
5) Evangelistic language (like at Pentecost)
There are more uses...
A personal prayer language is different than a word in tongues delivered to a congregation.
Five Different Uses of Tongues
1) Personal prayer language (worship/edification)
2) Intercessory prayer language
3) A prophetic message for a congregation
4) Warfare prayer in the Spirit
5) Evangelistic language (like at Pentecost)
There are more uses...
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
The Apostle Paul addressed this in 1 Corinthians chapter 14.
And Jesus reference to praying in private has nothing to do with it.
The problem Jesus was addressing was NOT public prayer, but rather doing it for the praise of men.
@The Learner has a point, in that the Apostle Paul was addressing orderly worship in Corinth.
Although they are projecting that onto any worship service involving praying in tongues. Not true.
And you are correct to say this is not chaos to those used to it. In fact, not chaos at all as compared to Corinth.
I love it when those who don't speak in tongues want to infoirm those who do about how it should be done. - LOL
As if they are some sort of experts on the subject. Say what?
The thing is that a mountain being literally moved by someone's faith didn't happen in scripture.. hasn't been observed to happen since then.. and hasn't been reported to happen now. So that means Paul wasn't writing about something that is definitely literal.
But the other point is.. Paul is writing about the supremacy of faith, hope and love over the sign gifts.. so this is also why it is hypothetical.. because the primary subject is faith, hope and love and not speaking in the tongues of men and angels. It's all about the superfluousness of the sign gifts if done without faith, hope and love.
So Paul isn't emphasising tongues of men and angels.. but comparing them to a better way.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
All three synoptic references say "this mountain", which is specific. Therefore literal.
But you make a good point about such never happening. I'll give you that.
BUT... Jesus said we would do greater things, so... it could still happen.
Matthew 17:20 NIV
He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you,
if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain,
‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”
Sign gifts?
So you are a Cessationist. Okay.
That explains a lot.
Good point. The idea is not to focus on the manifestations of the Holy Spirit in-and-of themselves,
but as a means to reach the higher goal of faith, hope and love.
We certainly see folks running after these things today. At risk of losing sight of the ultimate good of them.
The moving mountains quote though is from 1 Corinthians.. not the synoptic gospels.. that is the primary passage related to the 'tongues of men and angels'. It is in that context.. 'though I speak in tongues of men and of angels ..' is in the same paragraph as 'having faith to move a mountain'.
Anyway.. I'm going round in circles
I don't have to prove anything. You don't have to prove anything.
Scripture speaks for itself
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Do you think chapter 13 was placed between chapters 12 and 14 for a reason?The moving mountains quote though is from 1 Corinthians.. not the synoptic gospels.. that is the primary passage related to the 'tongues of men and angels'. It is in that context.. 'though I speak in tongues of men and of angels ..' is in the same paragraph as 'having faith to move a mountain'.
Anyway.. I'm going round in circles
I don't have to prove anything. You don't have to prove anything.
Scripture speaks for itself
I understand that the chapter divisions were added later. But you made a comment about "sign gifts".
Not sure if you took the Cessationist, or Continuationist view.
Cessationists typically use chapter 13 to discredit use of what they call "sign gifts".
Well 1co 13 alone isn't enough to prove cessation of the sign gifts.. tongues , prophecy and knowledge gifts.
So another layer to add to this for cessation is the fact that the mention of all the gifts of the Holy Spirit decrease in mention as time goes on with all of Paul's letters to the churches and Titus and Timothy.
In the last letters Paul does not use any gift to heal someone...he actually couldn't do it.
There is a lot more to this also
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
We could probably say that about many foundational aspects.
Like baptism. Did that fade away too? Or did it likely continue without mention in the NT?
Besides, many of the Early Church Fathers reported a continuation of spiritual gifts in their churches.
I have heard about the early church fathers reporting that..but when you actually get down to the nitty gritty of what they believe and what they are reporting it changes things.
I saw an article on this ..that addresses most of the quotes from them.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
#1 That video is not what we SEE and read in Acts and 1 Corinthians about the Authentic God given Gift of Tongues.
#2 i never participated or belonged to any group like that in the video
#3 i have been to other churches where the exact opposite took place to such extreme that you wanted to cry!
Davy
Well-Known Member
We should pray in secret to our Heavenly Father. But there's really nothing wrong with praying 'with' a group of believers either.
But what you're talking about is their idea of 'praying in tongues', which would mean that you agree with that per 'their' view. Thing is, their view of what 'praying in tongues' is, is not Biblical. Apostle Paul taught no such idea.
When Paul spoke of someone coming into the Church with a "unknown tongue", he was pointing to known languages of the world. Simply, if someone who only spoke Chinese came into the Church and there was no one to interpret, Paul said for that to keep silent.
And by the way, the word "unknown" in the KJV phrase "unknown tongue" in 1 Corinthians 14, IS NOT WRITTEN IN THE GREEK NEW TESTAMENT. The KJV translators ADDED that word "unknown". The word in the Greek there is simply Greek glossa, which means a known language of the world.
And that is the MAJOR HINGE POINT of properly understanding about the cloven tongue of Pentecost. When it went out, it went out as KNOWN LANGUAGES OF THE WORLD, even in the DIALECTS of the towns where those present were born. It was NOT gibberish speech, which is how many are fooled into thinking that gibberish talk is the true cloven tongue. The TRUE cloven tongue per ACTS 2 was UNDERSTOOD by everyone present!
This video sickened me........literally!
My roots were in a Pentecostal church........the Holy Spirit of my God NEVER manifested his gifts in a church setting in such a way !
The Spirit moved in accordance with Paul's exhortations in Corinthians....order & decency.....distributing his gifts @ his will for the edification of the church, not this bizarre insane put on mocked up evil appearing behaviour !
Shame on the poster of this video.........you've been ignored!
NOT ALL THAT SAY THEY ARE IN & OF CHRIST.........ARE.
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