Proof of the Trinity. No takers?

[justbyfaith]

Just to be obstinate ---
There is technically a third option: both could be right and they are using different words to talk past each other, or talking about different aspects of the same answer.

In Protestantism with a "sola scriptura" foundation, it really does come down to that individual's interpretation of scripture and none can really be proven right over the other. It's very silly to watch Protestants try to do just that. Rather, the real foundation of Protestantism (and Christianity as a whole) is the individual's relationship with God.

I see you have taken me off of ignore, @Jane_Doe22.

It has been one of my contentions with you that Mormonism defines the words that we find in the Bible differently than we might find in normal defining of terms...so technically you may be right...if a Mormon used words defined by Mormonism, and used them to say what is truly Christian doctrine; but someone who truly believes Christian doctrine disagreed because the definitions were different...but if that same Christian knew the Mormon definitions of the terms he might have agreed, then any Mormon listening might find the gospel preached to them in Mormon terminoligy because the meaning of what was said would be in accordance with the real gospel...maybe something you can do, @Jane_Doe22, can do, once you have converted to real Christianity.

 

[justbyfaith]

It is the story of the Elephant description ...one seeing it from the trunk , one from the tail, one from the side...

That is a Buddhist parable, and it relies on the premise that all of the people perceiving what the elephant is are blind...

As believers in Christ, we claim that the truth is an entire elephant...not a rope, or a hose, or a tree trunk, or a wall...

btw, all of the descriptions above (other than elephant) are what I would consider to be inaccurate.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes, If you mean in the Person of Jesus Christ our Rock, our Hope, our Victory, our Destiny and our Eternal Glory and final Home.

He is our absolute Truth.
Things like we see debated and argued about on this Forum...not so much...how can it be, when everyone has their own opinion.

Anyway...that is how I understand it.

Bless you....H

There are statements, that it can be said of them that they are statements of absolute truth...such as, when Jesus said, I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM [He], ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24...and that we can learn more about what this means by looking at parallel and contrasting scriptures (1 Corinthians 2:13 (kjv)).

 

[Netchaplain]

The Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the same eternal essence and power as the Father, which answers to all Three being referred to as God. I believe the significant difference Scripture reveals is within Their positions, in which position the Father is the “greatest” (Jhn 10:29; 14:28).

Though Scripture occasionally refers to the Son and the Spirit as God, it refers mostly to Jesus being the Son of God or the Son of the Father, which I believe are the positions They desire us mainly to consider Christ, because the work of creation and redemption is best understood by these primary positions and titles. There is greater redemptive character in referring to Christ as the Son of God than any other title!

This also answers to why we see it mostly written as “the Son of God” and the Spirit of God, but not the Father of God, because the Father is God! Hence nearly all (except a few) of Paul’s epistles beginning with “God our Father.”

Blessings!

 

[justbyfaith]

God will be looking for fruit...the fruit of HIS reflection on our hearts.

Fruit develops out of the roots of faith...which is based in doctrine.

No one is saved by grace through faith without receiving certain essential doctrines. Perhaps why Jeremiah 29:13, Matthew 7:13-14 are so important to our understanding.

Now if you think that being a good person saves you or anyone else, you are sadly mistaken. Being saved will make someone a good person...but it does not work the other way around. There are plenty of people that might be identified as "good people"...who think of themselves as good and others also think the same of them...who are not going to heaven because their sins aren't forgiven through the blood of Jesus...and this is basically the bottom line.

So then, while it is true that by their fruits you shall know them...it is also true that what may appear to be good fruit on the outside may be rotten on the inside. Since a man may be outwardly righteous apart from faith in Jesus Christ (Matthew 23:25-27). Paul is a primary example of this before his conversion, see Philippians 3:1-9.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the same eternal essence and power as the Father, which answers to all Three being referred to as God. I believe the significant difference Scripture reveals is within Their positions, in which position the Father is the “greatest” (Jhn 10:29; 14:28).

Though Scripture occasionally refers to the Son and the Spirit as God, it refers mostly to Jesus being the Son of God or the Son of the Father, which I believe are the positions They desire us mainly to consider Christ, because the work of creation and redemption is best understood by these primary positions and titles. There is greater redemptive character in referring to Christ as the Son of God than any other title!

This also answers to why we see it mostly written as “the Son of God” and the Spirit of God, but not the Father of God, because the Father is God! Hence nearly all (except a few) of Paul’s epistles beginning with “God our Father.”

Blessings!

There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4), the Father (John 4:23-24), the Son (Colossians 1:27, 1 John 5:12) and the Holy Ghost (John 7:39).

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6), the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21), the Son (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3), and the Holy Ghost (2 Corinthians 3:17).

There is one God (Ephesians 4:6), the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6, Romans 15:6, James 3:9), the Son (Hebrews 1:8), and the Holy Ghost (Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4).

These are the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).

Therefore the Spirit is the Lord is the God.

One God (Deuteronomy 6:4, Mark 12:29 (kjv)) and Father of all (Ephesians 4:6).

Jesus is the Everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6). See also Malachi 2:10. And the Wonderful Counsellor, the Holy Spirit (also Isaiah 9:6). He is the son that was given.

 

[justbyfaith]

The servants of the Most High God will proclaim the whole truth on this planet before the world ends and everyone stands, and kneels, or falls, before the judgment seat of God (Matthew 24:14).

 

[Netchaplain]

Jesus is the Everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6).

I believe this passage to be one of others that demonstrates Jesus being the complete representative of the Father, because "in Christ
dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Col 2:9). I see it that Jesus is the revelation and full representation of His Father, thus in representation only, for He and the Father are separate Deities, as is Their Holy Spirit (Spirit of Christ - Rom 8:9; 1Pet 1:11).

Blessings!

 

[101G]

This also answers to why we see it mostly written as “the Son of God” and the Spirit of God, but not the Father of God, because the Father is God! Hence nearly all (except a few) of Paul’s epistles beginning with “God our Father.”

this is an interesting statement you made. not for an argument, ok, but consider this,
James 1:27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world".

you said, "because the Father is God". in James 1:27 is God here this the SAME Person the Father".

the thing I'm concern with is the conjunction "and" that separate the two, "God" and "Father".

or this,
1 Thessalonians 3:11 "Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you". are these one Person?

or this,
Colossians 3:17 "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

but the bible clearly say God is the Father, right?

knowing that, this,
Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God".

"I" here is a single designation, but let's seeif this is so,
Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Revelation 1:18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death".

this is the Lord Jesus, right.

but there is something else,
Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

here the first is "WITH" the last. is this one person or two.

but wait, one more,
Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last".

here, the First is "ALSO" the Last, is this two person or one person, because "I" is a single designation.

what you think?. one person or two?

one might want to re-read this post for clarity

 

[Helen]

No one is saved by grace through faith without receiving certain essential doctrines.
Perhaps why Jeremiah 29:13, Matthew 7:13-14 are so important to our understanding.

Cannot go there with you at all.
Now that is one of the most bizarre thing that I have heard you say yet!
Now you are "adding to" the finished work of Christ. Wow. and again
WOW!!
..

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Cannot go there with you at all.
Now that is one of the most bizarre thing that I have heard you say yet!
Now you are "adding to" the finished work of Christ. Wow. and again
WOW!!
..View attachment 5089

When Christ called over the little children to bless them, He didn't start with "hey- stop, we need to make sure you pass this theology test first".
Likewise, when a little child today expresses their love of Christ and acceptance of Him, I don't see any people saying "stop right there- please explain homoousios to me before you can be saved."

Learning about God and gaining knowledge is a GOOD thing-- don't get me wrong about that. But it's not what our salvation comes from.

 

[Helen]

@Jane_Doe22

...

 

[mjrhealth]

Therefore the Spirit is the Lord is the God.

and which God might that be,???

 

[mjrhealth]

No one is saved by grace through faith without receiving certain essential doctrines. Perhaps why Jeremiah 29:13, Matthew 7:13-14 are so important to our understanding.

Saul falls down to the ground, Christ Says hey Paul you are mine, go..., Paul responds, sorry Jesus i never read the bible so how can you save me....

 

[justbyfaith]

I believe this passage to be one of others that demonstrates Jesus being the complete representative of the Father, because "in Christ
dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Col 2:9). I see it that Jesus is the revelation and full representation of His Father, thus in representation only, for He and the Father are separate Deities, as is Their Holy Spirit (Spirit of Christ - Rom 8:9; 1Pet 1:11).

Blessings!

You are a Tritheist and not a Trinitarian. The doctrine of the Trinity states that the members of the Godhead are distinct, not separate.

Have you considered that Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in Him (John 14:7-11)? God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24), even the Spirit of Jesus (understand Ephesians 4:4 in the light)

Cannot go there with you at all.
Now that is one of the most bizarre thing that I have heard you say yet!
Now you are "adding to" the finished work of Christ. Wow. and again
WOW!!

That is an interesting argument. But no, I am not adding to the finished work of Christ. I am saying that it is essential that you believe that He died for you if you are going to enter heaven, among other things. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 makes that abundantly clear. And you should also consider John 3:36...if we do not believe the Son then the wrath of God abides on us...to me that means that if we reject the words of Jesus we may think we are a Christian but we really are not.

Jesus said that He wouldn't be the judge of those who rejected His words, but that rather His words themselves will be the judge. Therefore if we do not hearken and heed the words of Jesus, we will be judged by them to be weighed in the balances and found wanting.

In Hebrews chapter 3 and 4 we find that we are supposed to Take heed lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God. And also, in three places we are told, Today if you will hear His voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the day of provocation.

Therefore I think that this is saying that we need to be receptive to the words of Jesus and His apostles if we are going to finish the race.

 

[justbyfaith]

and which God might that be,???

Are you kidding with me? YHWH of course.

 

[justbyfaith]

Saul falls down to the ground, Christ Says hey Paul you are mine, go..., Paul responds, sorry Jesus i never read the bible so how can you save me....

Are you kidding me again? Paul was a Pharisee of the Pharisees before converting...and therefore He knew the Bible of his day better than the back of his hand.

 

[justbyfaith]

I would say, however, that an encounter with Jesus is enough; and that anyone who encounters Him will get to know Him better through His love letter to them afterwards. And that no one who believes in Jesus through an encounter will contradict within their own belief system anything that He has said (or His apostles for that matter).

 

[mjrhealth]

Are you kidding me again? Paul was a Pharisee of the Pharisees before converting...and therefore He knew the Bible of his day better than the back of his hand.

which part of the new tesatament he wrote 14 letters in it....

 

[justbyfaith]

which part of the new tesatament he wrote 14 letters in it....

You mean epistles? abcdefghijklom is fourteen letters.

Also, see my clarification in the next post (post #398 (Proof of the Trinity. No takers?)).