Proof that Jesus is God

[Cooper]

I mean, I did not know yet, after receiving a down payment of the Holy Spirit, that Jesus WAS God. So I was not godless, without God at the time. He just hadn’t shown me yet.

OK, trouble is, I do not know what you mean by 'down payment' and neither do I know what is difficult about the Trinity.

We are flesh, soul and spirit. There is nothing hard there.
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[theQuestioneer]

I can grasp it that when God took on a human form, He...ah, well, I can grasp a binity anyway. But honestly, I can’t even really do that either, lol! To me, God is God, He is spirit, and Jesus was God. Talk about stooping down to help someone, man oh man...

God said he sent SOMEONE ELSE. (John 3:16)

 

[Wrangler]

neither do I know what is difficult about the Trinity.

The trinity is nonsense (like square circles), inherently contradictory, goes against Scripture, logic, definition and language usage.

We are flesh, soul and spirit. There is nothing hard there.

Well, we are many things. You stop counting at a 1 = 3 convenience. 1 = 1; 1 <> 3. A is A. Apples are not <Apples and Oranges>. There is nothing hard here.

 

[Cooper]

The trinity is nonsense (like square circles), inherently contradictory, goes against Scripture, logic, definition and language usage.

Well, we are many things. You stop counting at a 1 = 3 convenience. 1 = 1; 1 <> 3. A is A. Apples are not <Apples and Oranges>. There is nothing hard here.

It is more like a three legged stool or a tricycle.

One is a stool, and you know what a tricycle is. They are both One, and you seem incapable of understanding something so simple.
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[Wrangler]

you seem incapable of understanding something so simple.

I've been told this for decades. Trinitarians confuse <not understanding> with <rejecting as invalid>, e.g., flat Earth.

 

[Cooper]

I've been told this for decades. Trinitarians confuse <not understanding> with <rejecting as invalid>, e.g., flat Earth.

The Jews wrote the Bible, and they tell us Jesus is God with us.
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[Wrangler]

The Jews wrote the Bible, and they tell us Jesus is God with us.
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Cannot grasp figurative language, huh? The literal name of the son of God is not Immanuel.

Indeed, God is with us, through the man Jesus.


There is one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Hmmm. In the book When Jesus Became God, the author Rubenstein details how politically motivated even compiling Scripture was. For instance, there is very credible evidence that Matthew 28:19 was not in the original manuscripts but was a 4th century trinitarian corruption. Have you ever looked into that? See Why The Apostles Repeatedly Disobeyed the Risen Lord.

That verse always seemed out of place to me. While it appears important, Jesus never mentioned it in his life time, only when he was about to ascend to heaven - and then gives no clarification.

Some years ago I became aware that there is not 'one' Bible. EOC (77) > RCC (73) > Protestants (66). (The number in parenthesis is the number of books each denomination holds as part of the word of God.) Up until then, I thought there was universal agreement on what the word of God even was. While I don't know all the details of this, I find the topic fascinating.

Since the 3 denominations hold different doctrines, you might imagine how they reconcile verses that MUST fit together by excluding or including what fits their doctrine, right?

No, I’ve never looked into that! I mostly read an NLT, but I’ve found some places I think could have been translated better or that I understood better by looking at different translations, but God seems able to make verses come together for me no matter my translation. I’d have a hard time changing translations altogether at this pointbecause I wouldn’t be able to easily find what I remember the wording to be...

What amazes me is I know a man who speaks Hebrew and he finds mistakes in translation all the time that have helped me understand something that was hanging for years. It’s like...it’ll be one word off a bit and it pulls something together for me where I can suddenly see the spirit of something I never had before. For instance, he thinks a life for a life actually more accurately translates as a life in a life. I’m grateful for people who study and know Hebrew. They can even break down each actual LETTER and help my understanding of the spirit of the word. It’s kind of like when the one apostle said, or do you think God was really talking about OXEN there?? It’s like one of those pictures where you see one thing if you look at the black blobs of ink but you see a totally different thing if you look at it as a black page with white ink on it! Truly amazing.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I've been told this for decades. Trinitarians confuse <not understanding> with <rejecting as invalid>, e.g., flat Earth.

haha, that they thought the earth was flat amazes me because I’ve found it said to be round in two different places in the Bible,

 

[Cooper]

Cannot grasp figurative language, huh? The literal name of the son of God is not Immanuel.

Indeed, God is with us, through the man Jesus.


There is one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5

Before Cliff Richard was Harry Web. They are One.
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[Cooper]

haha, that they thought the earth was flat amazes me because I’ve found it said to be round in two different places in the Bible,

A sphere which is what it is.
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[Wrangler]

I mostly read an NLT, but I’ve found some places I think could have been translated better or that I understood better by looking at different translations, ... I’d have a hard time changing translations altogether at this pointbecause I wouldn’t be able to easily find what I remember the wording to be...

I like the NLT also, along with CEV & VOICE and sometimes ESV. No one translation always impacts me the most.

If you read through Why The Apostles Repeatedly Disobeyed the Risen Lord you'll see a bizarre rationalization that when the Apostles only baptized in no name or the name of Jesus, it meant the same as 3. There is harmonizing and there is rationalizing. That thread demonstrated some of the most powerful rationalizing I've ever come across.

Can you admit there are verses that undermine trinitarianism - or at least, appear to?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I like the NLT also, along with CEV & VOICE and sometimes ESV. No one translation always impacts me the most.

If you read through Why The Apostles Repeatedly Disobeyed the Risen Lord you'll see a bizarre rationalization that when the Apostles only baptized in no name or the name of Jesus, it meant the same as 3. There is harmonizing and there is rationalizing. That thread demonstrated some of the most powerful rationalizing I've ever come across.

Can you admit there are verses that undermine trinitarianism - or at least, appear to?

I guess I could admit that but I wouldnt get into an argument over it. I wouldnt even really seek out to talk about it as I would if a conversation was about Jesus not being Lord. And even then, I wouldnt argue but would just present that it isnt one or two verses that show Jesus is Lord but is rather many, many verses. As long as someone has a downpayment of the Spirit, I just present the verses that are being ignored to their being held back or held in stasis. Other than that, and then just leaving them with God, the only other thing I could do to help them and encourage them is to build up their trust or to show them where they have done an end run around trust that they havent seen for what it is.

But if someone thinks of God as 3 but 1, well, NONE of us can grasp all of God, and I think it wont harm them. But a discussion on if Jesus is Lord or not, I think that could hold them back unnecessarily, so I WILL jump into that conversation.

 

[Wrangler]

But if someone thinks of God as 3 but 1, well, NONE of us can grasp all of God, and I think it wont harm them.

Violating

• Scripture (1C, Sh'ma @ Deut 6:4, Is 45:5)
• Logic
• Definitions
• Language Usage

is always harmful. God put the 1C first; it must be important! What is more important:
A. Following Jesus
B. Believing in the trinity


I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
Galileo Galilei

(to His disciples) If you want to follow Me, you must deny yourself the things you think you want. You must pick up your cross and follow Me. 25 The person who wants to save his life must lose it, and she who loses her life for Me will find it.
Matthew 16:24-25 (Voice)

 

[kcnalp]

The Hebrew and Greek languages often use feminine nouns to point to a creation. According to the strong concordance theos can be rendered two ways. One way, is in the Masculine sense as in the first instance of (John 1:1) But what about in the second instance as in John 1:1c? Isn't that scripture describing his qualitative sense? His divinity in being divine?


Strong's Concordance
theos: God, a god
Original Word: θεός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine; Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: theos
Phonetic Spelling: (theh'-os)
Short Definition: God, a god
Definition: (a) God, (b) a god, generally.

Many Scholars know this, but withhold the fact that theos can be rendered (a god) as it was with Paul and Moses. Other variations of rendering John 1:1 also exist:

1808: "and the Word was a god" – Thomas Belsham The New Testament
1822: "and the Word was a god" – The New Testament in Greek and English
1829: "and the Word was a god" – The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists
1863: "and the Word was a god" – A Literal Translation (Herman Heinfetter)
1879: "and the Word was a god" – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (J. Becker, 1979)
1885: "and the Word was a god" – Concise Commentary on The Holy Bible (R. Young, 1885)
1911: "and the Word was a god" – The Coptic Version of the N.T. (G. W. Horner, 1911)
1935: "and the Word was divine" – The Bible: An American Translation, by John M. P. Smith and Edgar J. Goodspeed, Chicago
1955: "so the Word was divine" – The Authentic New Testament, by Hugh J. Schonfield, Aberdeen.
1958: "and the Word was a god" – The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Anointed" (J. L. Tomanec, 1958);
1975 "and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word" – Das Evangelium nach Johnnes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany
1975: "and the Word was a god" – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (S. Schulz, 1975);
1978: "and godlike sort was the Logos" – Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin

When trinitarians can't show a scripture of three separate persons make up one God, they switch to Modalism, saying 'Jesus is God'. The trinity is like a three legged stool. Remove one leg and the trinity comes tumbling down. When the teaching of demons get expose they tend to taunt, scream, and hurl accusations. But very soon they will be abyssed. So now let's carry on to John 1:1c.


Other translations:

• 1808: "and the Word was a god" – Thomas Belsham The New Testament
• 1822: "and the Word was a god" – The New Testament in Greek and English (A. Kneeland, 1822.)
• 1829: "and the Word was a god" – The Monotessaron;
• 1863: "and the Word was a god" – A Literal Translation of the New Testament (Herman Heinfetter [Pseudonym of Frederick Parker], 1863)
• 1864: "and a god was the Word" – The Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London (left hand column interlinear reading)
• 1867: "In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God" – The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible
• 1879: "and the Word was a god" – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (J. Becker, 1979)
• 1885: "and the Word was a god" – Concise Commentary on The Holy Bible (R. Young, 1885)
• 1911: "and the Word was a god" – The Coptic Version of the N.T. (G. W. Horner, 1911)
• 1935: "and the Word was divine" – The Bible: An American Translation, by John M. P. Smith and Edgar J. Goodspeed, Chicago
• 1955: "so the Word was divine" – The Authentic New Testament, by Hugh J. Schonfield, Aberdeen
• 1956: "In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity" – The Wuest Expanded Translation
• 1958: "and the Word was a god" – The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Anointed" (J. L. Tomanec, 1958);
• 1970, 1989: "...and what God was, the Word was" – The Revised English Bible 1975 "and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word" – Das Evangelium nach Johnnes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany
• 1975: "and the Word was a god" – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (S. Schulz, 1975);
• 1978: "and godlike sort was the Logos" – Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin
• 2017: “In the origin there was the Logos, and the Logos was present with GOD, and the Logos was god;” - The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart

Let me guess, you're citing JW's, Mormons, SDA's, Unitarians, Muslims, etc.

 

[Cooper]

Violating

• Scripture (1C, Sh'ma @ Deut 6:4, Is 45:5)
• Logic
• Definitions
• Language Usage

is always harmful. God put the 1C first; it must be important! What is more important:
A. Following Jesus
B. Believing in the trinity


I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
Galileo Galilei

(to His disciples) If you want to follow Me, you must deny yourself the things you think you want. You must pick up your cross and follow Me. 25 The person who wants to save his life must lose it, and she who loses her life for Me will find it.
Matthew 16:24-25 (Voice)

It would not matter if you followed Cliff Richard or Harry Web. They are One. In fact, Harry Web preexisted Cliff Richard who came later. Only the name is different.
.
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[BroRando]

When trinitarians can't show a scripture of three separate persons make up one God, they switch to Modalism, saying 'Jesus is God'. The trinity is like a three legged stool. Remove one leg and the trinity comes tumbling down. When the teaching of demons get expose they tend to taunt, scream, and hurl accusations. But very soon they will be abyssed. So now let's carry on to John 1:1c.


Other translations:

• 1808: "and the Word was a god" – Thomas Belsham The New Testament
• 1822: "and the Word was a god" – The New Testament in Greek and English (A. Kneeland, 1822.)
• 1829: "and the Word was a god" – The Monotessaron;
• 1863: "and the Word was a god" – A Literal Translation of the New Testament (Herman Heinfetter [Pseudonym of Frederick Parker], 1863)
• 1864: "and a god was the Word" – The Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London (left hand column interlinear reading)
• 1867: "In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God" – The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible
• 1879: "and the Word was a god" – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (J. Becker, 1979)
• 1885: "and the Word was a god" – Concise Commentary on The Holy Bible (R. Young, 1885)
• 1911: "and the Word was a god" – The Coptic Version of the N.T. (G. W. Horner, 1911)
• 1935: "and the Word was divine" – The Bible: An American Translation, by John M. P. Smith and Edgar J. Goodspeed, Chicago
• 1955: "so the Word was divine" – The Authentic New Testament, by Hugh J. Schonfield, Aberdeen
• 1956: "In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity" – The Wuest Expanded Translation
• 1958: "and the Word was a god" – The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Anointed" (J. L. Tomanec, 1958);
• 1970, 1989: "...and what God was, the Word was" – The Revised English Bible 1975 "and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word" – Das Evangelium nach Johnnes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany
• 1975: "and the Word was a god" – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (S. Schulz, 1975);
• 1978: "and godlike sort was the Logos" – Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin
• 2017: “In the origin there was the Logos, and the Logos was present with GOD, and the Logos was god;” - The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart

 

[BroRando]

"In the Beginning the Word was Begotten by the One who Always Existed which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

 

[Cooper]

When trinitarians can't show a scripture of three separate persons make up one God, they switch to Modalism, saying 'Jesus is God'. The trinity is like a three legged stool. Remove one leg and the trinity comes tumbling down. When the teaching of demons get expose they tend to taunt, scream, and hurl accusations. But very soon they will be abyssed.

You should hear yourselves.
.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Violating

• Scripture (1C, Sh'ma @ Deut 6:4, Is 45:5)
• Logic
• Definitions
• Language Usage

is always harmful. God put the 1C first; it must be important! What is more important:
A. Following Jesus
B. Believing in the trinity


I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
Galileo Galilei

(to His disciples) If you want to follow Me, you must deny yourself the things you think you want. You must pick up your cross and follow Me. 25 The person who wants to save his life must lose it, and she who loses her life for Me will find it.
Matthew 16:24-25 (Voice)

Mmm...not sure what point you’re trying to make...
I’ve met many people with a down payment of the Spirit who think of God as 3 parts, but all one.
But I’ve yet to meet anyone who has been, or is being perfected, (to whatever degree), who doesn’t say Jesus is Lord.