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Proof that Jesus is God

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by robert derrick, Apr 29, 2021.

  1. Cooper

    Cooper Well-Known Member

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    I thought Unitarians gave Christ little or no credit for anything. They worship Yahweh.

    As a Christian, I give Christ all the honour and glory.
    .
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2021 at 12:30 PM
  2. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Of course it is not necessarily the actual words spoken as it is what is in our heart that causes the words to be spoken. God knows and won't judge us too harshly if we are sincere and working at it... but we must be working at it. I cannot work at it for anyone else.

    "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
    For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Matt 12:36-37
     
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  3. NayborBear

    NayborBear Active Member

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    The way I sees it? Believing in and accepting Christ is the only CORRECT starting point of proceeding unto the Father in Heaven!

    So, in my reckoning? Giving all credit to the Son, or to the Father is unitarian!

    By giving honor unto the Father by honoring His Only begotten?
    Is doing just that! Giving honor. Which is a very good thing to do! To be certain!
    Is not the same as coming or going unto the Father!
     
  4. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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  5. robert derrick

    robert derrick Active Member

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    Yeah, just tweaking the Jehovaites who worship their title 'Jehovah', and don't want Jesus anywhere near Him. Not even Jesus' name. That would be blasphemy. But He's already been crucified for that once, so you don't get a2nd shot at it.

    Jehovah Jesus. Jesus Jehovah. Jesus the true Jehovah.
     
  6. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    What Scriptural passage is that?
     
  7. Cooper

    Cooper Well-Known Member

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    If I praise the name of Jesus, guess who I am worshiping...

    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6 KJV)

    God with us.
    .
     
  8. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    You know Is 9:6 is referring to someone around the time of Isaiah and not the Messiah, right?
     
  9. Cooper

    Cooper Well-Known Member

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    That is Isaiah 7:14. The usual culprits tried to make out the prophecy was about Ahaz, but he was not born of a Virgin.
    .
     
  10. tigger 2

    tigger 2 Active Member

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    There are at least two other ways this personal name has been interpreted by reputable Bible scholars. (1) The titles within the name (e.g., “Mighty God”) are intended in their secondary, subordinate senses (e.g., “a mighty god”). (2) the titles within the name are meant to praise God the Father, not the Messiah.
    ....

    And second, another way competent Bible scholars have interpreted the meaning of this name is with the understanding that it (as with many, if not most, of the other Israelites’ personal names) does not apply directly to the Messiah (as we can see with “Elijah,” “Abijah,” etc.) but is, instead, a statement praising the Father, Jehovah God.

    Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today. The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as “my,” “is,” “of,” etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.

    For instance, two of the best Bible concordances (Young’s and Strong’s) and a popular trinitarian Bible dictionary (Today’s Dictionary of the Bible) differ greatly on the exact meaning of many Biblical personal names because of those “minor” words which must be added to bring out the intended meaning.

    Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, for example, says the name “Elimelech” (which is literally just “God King”) means “God of (the) King.” Young’s Analytical Concordance says it means “God is King.” Today’s Dictionary of the Bible says it means “ God his king” - p. 206, Bethany House Publ., 1982.

    Those missing minor words that the translator must supply at his own discretion can often make a vital difference! - For example, the footnote for Gen. 17:5 in The NIV Study Bible: The name ‘Abram’ “means ‘Exalted Father,’ probably in reference to God (i.e., ‘[God is the] Exalted Father’).” - bracketed information is in the original.

    This is why another name the Messiah is to be called by at Jer. 23:6 is rendered, `The LORD [YHWH] IS Our Righteousness' in the following Bibles: RSV; NRSV; NEB; NJB; JPS (Margolis, ed.); Tanakh; Byington; AT; and ASV (footnote). Of course other translations render it more literally by calling the Messiah "The LORD [YHWH] Our Righteousness" to help support a `Jesus is God' doctrine. Some of these (such as the NASB) actually render the very same name at Jer. 33:16 as "The LORD [or Jehovah] is Our Righteousness"! - [bracketed information is mine].

    (Unfortunately for "Jesus is Jehovah" advocates, the very same name given to the Messiah at Jer. 23:16 is given to a city at Jer. 33:16.)

    Therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated in the footnote as:

    “And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace” - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.)

    to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

    Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith & Goodspeed) says:

    “Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.”

    From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:

    ".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"

    And The Leeser Bible has:

    “Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

    Of course it could also be honestly translated:

    “The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Everlasting Father of the Prince of Peace.”

    And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

    [a] “The Mighty God is planning grace;

    The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.”

    This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism (“Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz” means [a]“quick to the plunder; swift to the spoil” - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself a parallelism: [a]“For unto us a child is born; unto us a son is given.” It would, therefore, be appropriate to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.

    So it is clear, even to a number of trinitarian scholars, that Is. 9:6 does not imply that Jesus is Jehovah God.
     
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  11. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    Virgin or young women?
     
  12. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    Those who do not differentiate between an explicit teaching from ‘support’ of doctrine already held do not care how weak the ‘support’ is.
     
  13. Cristo Rei

    Cristo Rei Well-Known Member

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    If Jesus is God then who is Jesus praying to in the garden of Gethsemane before he got arrested???

    And who is he speaking to on the cross when he says "why have you abandoned me?"???

    And the countless other times that he refers to God as his Father???

    Many question marks indeed... Metaphorical??? Literal???

    So God makes man infected with sin.
    Then he has to send himself or his son to die for our sins.
    Thats never made sense to me.

    And why does God only appear for such a short time to one small group of people, the Jews???
    What about the other 99% of earths population???

    Many unanswered questions
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021 at 4:54 AM
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  14. ByGraceThroughFaith

    ByGraceThroughFaith Active Member

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    explain John 1:1
     
  15. Cooper

    Cooper Well-Known Member

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    In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God and Jesus was God.
    .
     
  16. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    I've explained it dozens of times AND provided a video. If you want to pretend John 1:1 supersedes the Sh'ma and the 1,000's of times God is identified as singular pronouns, bless your heart.
     
  17. Cooper

    Cooper Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't take much working out once you know Jesus was God with us. Sometimes he spoke as a man and sometimes as the Almighty.
    .
    .
     
  18. ByGraceThroughFaith

    ByGraceThroughFaith Active Member

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    TWO Who are GOD, and yet DISTINCT!
     
  19. ByGraceThroughFaith

    ByGraceThroughFaith Active Member

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    Ecclesiastes 12:1, "Remember also אֶת־בּוֹרְאֶיךָ your CREATORS", masculine PLURAL

    Job 35:10, "But none saith, Where is God עֹשָׂי my MAKERS", masculine PLURAL

    Isaiah 54:5, "For עֹשַׂיִךְ your MAKERS is thy husband", masculine PLURAL

    Genesis 1:26, "And God said,נַעֲשֶׂה let US make man בְּצַלְמֵנוּ in OUR image, כִּדְמוּתֵנוּ after OUR likeness" masculine PLURAL

    Isaiah 6:8, "And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go לָנוּ for US?" masculine PLURAL

    THIS is what the Holy Bible clearly Teaches!
     
  20. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    Does not refute one thing I wrote.

    I speak English. I am Groot. In English, Hebrew and Greek, 1,000's of times God is referred to using the singular pronoun.
     
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