Proof: You were only forgiven of your past sins!

[Dave L]

you posit God as our judge now, see, when i suggest that that is not the case at all, even if it is easy to get that impression from Reading poorly. Imo the "punishment" comes from "you reap what you sow," when you follow your father's sin rather than turning from it; is what i am reading in the passage, i'm pretty sure i could even dig up the v, it will say something along the lines of "when you ____" or "but if you _______" i bet

I'm not sure what you are saying, but the human race is a corrupt species. So God owes death to all or he cannot continue to be good. But in his love, he became Christ and took his own wrath for all who believe in Christ. Those who reject Christ die not atoned for.

 

[bbyrd009]

"i don't understand you, so i'll just talk over you" ok Dave tks
wadr plenty of posts you are skipping that are completely understandable i guess Dave

So God owes death to all or he cannot continue to be good.

priceless Dave, Love dispensing death now, go with that

But in his love, he became Christ and took his own wrath for all who believe in Christ.

and then forsook Himself, right

have a nice day

 

[justbyfaith]

and next thing you know, see, you are Quoting Paul as having said "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"

Isn't that what it does say in 2 Corinthians 5:8 (kjv)? I'm not sure what it is that you think is wrong with quoting Paul as saying that, since Paul did say that.

God did not have to specifically harden Pharaoh's heart in a conscious action of retribution like we might read

Yet God did harden Pharaoh's heart if you do read the story.

It appears to me that you are suggesting that we not accept the authority of the holy scriptures, but should go with our own beliefs that we establish out of thin air.

 

[Dave L]

"i don't understand you, so i'll just talk over you" ok Dave tks
wadr plenty of posts you are skipping that are completely understandable i guess Dave

priceless Dave, Love dispensing death now, go with that

and then forsook Himself, right

have a nice day

So you think crime without punishment is OK? What kind of mind would think this?

 

[Helen]

hey, make mine as small as you like, make Him Unknown even, fine with me, but see that i am the one saying everyone's sins have been forgiven here, yet i am getting accused of having a small god. So then tell me about your big God, Who is Love, not forgiving...some one of His children, who is that guy, that God is not forgiving.

does God judge us now?

I agree...God has forgiven all because of the Lamb slain...He was reconciling the world to Himself. We agree on that!
I am one of the few , if not the only one here who believes in the salvation of ALL men. "Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." I have never hidden that.

What I still don't get is the snippet of text that you use saying no man can die for the sins of another. What has that Got to do with Jesus Christ ..He came and did what His Father asked. He was not under any OT law.

And "Does God judge now"...my answer is NO, all judgement was poured out upon the Son. What we do now is reap what we sow.
We cause our own problems...but God in His mercy will still deliver us from ourselves when we call upon Him.
We we foolishly choose our flesh over His Spirit...we get burned.
The greed of man causes problems on this earth...not God.

Just my two cents...

 

[bbyrd009]

I agree...God has forgiven all because of the Lamb slain...He was reconciling the world to Himself. We agree on that!

well, we agree on some language, but i am not UR in the sense that "all men will be saved," bc Adam and Eve were totally forgiven even hiding behind that tree imo, and we can see that it did not save them at all right

What I still don't get is the snippet of text that you use saying no man can die for the sins of another. What has that Got to do with Jesus Christ ..He came and did what His Father asked. He was not under any OT law.

i should prolly sleep on this, tired now, but my initial response is that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, yet we believe "Jesus died for your sins," when no son of man may die for another's sins. So yes, Christ died for us, but this is not being read in the way...this can be read as a believer, or a follower, and they are two different interpretations that do not agree.

Jesus' death did not 'cover' your sins; following Christ will tho, or since part A there will be misunderstood, God did not need a sacrifice to make you acceptable to Him, or visible to Him, or allow Him to be in the same place that you are, none of that stuff
imo

 

[bbyrd009]

all judgement was poured out upon the Son

and being as how there was no judgement, that becomes a rather nuanced perspective, that we cannot ever quite Quote from Scripture see, we can only like dance around it?
25God presented Him as a •propitiationbc,bd through faith in His blood,be to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint Godbf passed overthe sins previously committed.bg
26God presented Him to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteousbh the one who has faith in Jesus.

see, when we go looking for all this judgement and sacrifice that God supposedly required, what we find instead is God's restraint, and God "presenting" stuff to us that had already occurred before the foundation of the world! And further seeking reveals "I desire mercy, not sacrifice," and "No Son of Man may die for another's sins."

And even "don't be killing the scapegoat, you bloodthirsty little sh@ts" lol

 

[bbyrd009]

John 5:22 Lexicon: "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,

 

[Helen]

well, we agree on some language, but i am not UR in the sense that "all men will be saved," bc Adam and Eve were totally forgiven even hiding behind that tree imo, and we can see that it did not save them at all right

Well I can't "see" what you think you can see! lol
We have not seen the 'end of the story'...so we cannot say that they were not saved!

I quiet expect to see them there in the kingdom.
Punishment fell upon them...they were driven out of the Garden.
But, as for salvation in the kingdom...only God knows that.
I do not for one moment believe they were "Lost."

"The day that you eat you will surely die"...and they 'died' to being one with God....out of the kingdom realm..."and their eyes were opened" They now saw good and evil ...and we blind to the spirit world. Punishment fits the crime.
By the death of Jesus " our eyes were opened" and we can see the good things of God...and we can "see" the City who's maker and builder is God.
Our vision is not fully restored yet...because we see in part, we understand in part...but, when that which is perfect has come...

As for the other part of your post...
Jesus was indeed Son of man...but firstly Son of God.
In your reference back to the OT verse...this is not so for - "no son of man"...no man was also Son of God. So no, Jesus is not included in that... So if I were you, I'd let go of that concept...not true.

"Sleep on it" well Mark.

 

[bbyrd009]

Well I can't "see" what you think you can see! lol

"Hey, where are you sinning little monkeys at, as if I didn't already know"
"we're hiding behind this tree bc your Love illuminates our sin, not bc we are worried about your judgement"
"here, have a skin then--that I made, I did not kill--and be as separate as you wanna be, no skin off My nose"

We have not seen the 'end of the story'...so we cannot say that they were not saved!

I quiet expect to see them there in the kingdom.
Punishment fell upon them...they were driven out of the Garden.
But, as for salvation in the kingdom...only God knows that.
I do not for one moment believe they were "Lost."

they were driven out bc they were driving lol
imo
as to the lost/saved thing, this means possible immortality to you still so we are no longer discussing the same thing i guess. The kingdom is with you, it is not existing anywhere else

 

[bbyrd009]

As for the other part of your post...
Jesus was indeed Son of man...but firstly Son of God.
In your reference back to the OT verse...this is not so for - "no son of man"...no man was also Son of God. So no, Jesus is not included in that... So if I were you, I'd let go of that concept...not true.

i'm thinkin Jesus called Himself "Son of Man" for a good reason, i'll stick with that.
When you do greater things than He did, shall i admit you to my pantheon too or what exactly

 

[lforrest]

i'm thinkin Jesus called Himself "Son of Man" for a good reason, i'll stick with that.
When you do greater things than He did, shall i admit you to my pantheon too or what exactly

Works can not elevate someone... The best you can hope for is a well done good and faithful servant.

 

[Phoneman777]

At the moment you were born-again …
you were only forgiven of the sins you had committed up to that point in time!

“For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness,
and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his OLD sins.
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call
and election sure, for IF you do these things you will never stumble;
for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting
kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” (2 Peter 1:9-11, NKJV)
“OLD sins” is also in the KJV, RSV, NLT, AMP

“having forgotten his purification from his FORMER sins.” (2 Peter 1:9, NASB)
“FORMER sins” is also in the ESV

“forgetting that they have been cleansed from their PAST sins.” (2 Peter 1:9, NIV)
“PAST sins” is also in the HCSB

Now for some confirming NT passages …

Paul wrote this to the Corinthian church concerning his words of rebuke
in 1 Corinthians that he had sent to them concerning some particular sin(s).
They really needed to be sorrowful and repent.
“… the pain (from his rebuke) caused you to repent and change your ways.
It was the kind of sorrow God wants His people to have, so you were not
harmed by us in any way. For the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience
leads us away from sin and results in salvation. … worldly sorrow, which lacks
repentance, results in spiritual (eternal) death.” (2 Corinthians 7:8-10, NLT)

“Yes, I am afraid that when I come again, God will humble me in your presence.
And I will be grieved because many of you have not given up your old sins.
You have not repented of your impurity, sexual immorality,
and eagerness for lustful pleasure.” (2 Corinthians 12:21, NLT)

Peter is warning believers about God’s destruction of all ungodly and unholy people:
“Then he used the water to destroy the ancient (ungodly) world … the day of judgment,
when ungodly people will be destroyed. … He is being patient for your sake. He does not
want anyone to be destroyed (perish spiritually), but (he) wants everyone to repent.
… what holy and godly lives you should live … (you) make every effort to be found living
peaceful lives that are pure and blameless in his sight. … I am warning you ahead of time
… Be on guard so that you will not be carried away by the errors …” (2 Peter 3:6-17, NLT)

John gives the condition for the Lord to forgive believers’ present sins:
“But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
and to cleanse us from all wickedness (unrighteousness).” (1 John 1:9, NLT)
“This is an extremely important verse … all men need to be repeatedly purified from all
unrighteousness – from all their sins … We must confess our sins and turn from them
… We must also confess them with our actions … (John) is talking here about repentance
… we must hate our sins and turn from them. This is true repentance.”
(The Applied New Testament Commentary; Dr. Thomas Hale)

2 verses later, John reminds believers to ask Jesus to plead our case before the Father:
“My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin.
But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before
the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous.” (1 John 2:1, NLT)

Believers are responsible for repenting of their sins after they are born-again!
They have been given the Holy Spirit, a totally new nature, and God’s word.
So, they have been enabled to be victorious overcomers over sin, the world,
and the devil. They have no excuse for failing to do this.

So true. To argue to the contrary is to claim the moment one becomes a saint, he's issued a license to sin - a very appealing doctrine to the enumerable pew-warming multitudes who are on their way to the everlasting destruction of the Second Death.

I can't understand why people can read the Proverbs 28:13 and not get that the only recipients of mercy are those who "forsake" their sins - which doesn't mean to "fornicate - forget - repeat" but "cease and desist".

 

[Nancy]

It makes me think that a duck is going to hand me some money...

I have no idea what it stands for and would love it if you would educate us.

AFLAK-LOL!! afaic = as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Nancy]

NO!! You are getting much too clever.
View attachment 4464

Hahaha...... as far as I'm concerned. I wonder if Mark got it

 

[Nancy]

A person can believe and sincerely repent and receive the Holy Spirit.
His life will eventually change ... bearing the fruit of salvation.
Then, lo and behold, because of His free will, he can go back to some of his old sins.
Result: falling away, falling from grace, drawing back unto perdition, etc.
Then later, he can repent again.
I won't be discussing this topic with you any more.
God bless!

I agree with both you and @ScottA - in part. I do believe a Christian (usually ones still on the milk) can fall away before the the seed can take root...weak Christians. I can only speak for myself as I did WALK away after 4 years in the 1990's. I do not believe I was truly saved then...there was something I could not let go of and did not understand how His grace is sufficient for ANYTHING! He never stopped calling me back in the many years I walked away from Him. I guess it's all in how much of ourselves are we willing to empty, so He can fill us? How diligently do we seek Him?
The second time around, when I came back in full surrender-that is when the changes began. And I am talking big changes. I don't think one who says they are a Christ follower but, is still comfortable living in sin can have a true saving grace. JMHO. ♥

 

[ScottA]

I agree with both you and @ScottA - in part. I do believe a Christian (usually ones still on the milk) can fall away before the the seed can take root...weak Christians. I can only speak for myself as I did WALK away after 4 years in the 1990's. I do not believe I was truly saved then...there was something I could not let go of and did not understand how His grace is sufficient for ANYTHING! He never stopped calling me back in the many years I walked away from Him. I guess it's all in how much of ourselves are we willing to empty, so He can fill us? How diligently do we seek Him?
The second time around, when I came back in full surrender-that is when the changes began. And I am talking big changes. I don't think one who says they are a Christ follower but, is still comfortable living in sin can have a true saving grace. JMHO. ♥

Good comments, and helpful because it is so often misunderstood.

It is best and accurate to say that one must "lose his life" (die) before gaining his life in Christ, which is the proper definition of salvation. So, just as it is not possible to partially die and partially live or go to and from the grave, it is not possible to be partially saved. We die, and then are saved from death.

Thus, that walk which you made to and from following Christ, was only through "the valley of the shadow of death." Even though you were learning of Him, you had not yet left the valley, you had not yet risen from death into life.

There is no place in between life and death.

 

[Nancy]

Good comments, and helpful because it is so often misunderstood.

It is best and accurate to say that one must "lose his life" (die) before gaining his life in Christ, which is the proper definition of salvation. So, just as it is not possible to partially die and partially live or go to and from the grave, it is not possible to be partially saved. We die, and then are saved from death.

Thus, that walk which you made to and from following Christ, was only through "the valley of the shadow of death." Even though you were learning of Him, you had not yet left the valley, you had not yet risen from death into life.

There is no place in between life and death.

Yep, no gray areas, lol.

 

[Phoneman777]

Works can not elevate someone... The best you can hope for is a well done good and faithful servant.

In the mind of someone who views "works" as "a means to an end" (the "end" being "salvation"), your argument makes perfect sense, but there's only one problem: the Bible doesn't present that view.

The Biblical view of "works" is not "a means to an end", but simply "evidence". It's not a "means", but a "measure" of whether the profession of the mouth is in harmony with the condition of the heart. (1 John 2:3-4)

Apple trees and pear trees can resemble each other so closely that only after the fruit is visible can a layman have the necessary proof to tell which tree is which.

You are essentially arguing that others claim apple trees obtain "apple-hood" by producing apples, afterwhich you deny the logic in that. Textbook Straw Man, friend. We who disagree with you rightfully argue that apple trees produce apples, period, and if no apples are present, they are simply not apple trees, they are something else. Christians produce Holy Spirit empowered obedience and those who do not are going to the Lake of Fire, regardless of their profession.

 

[justbyfaith]

We who disagree with you rightfully argue that apple trees produce apples, period, and if no apples are present, they are simply not apple trees, they are something else.

Of course, if the tree is not bearing fruit yet because it is not yet time, it is still a tree according to its kind.

Thus salvation is through faith alone (an apple tree is still an apple tree even without its fruit being evident). It is only when it becomes the time for bearing fruit that the tree is in danger if it doesn't (see Luke 13:6-9).