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Prophecy Fulfilment in Revelation; relative to the Old Testament Prophecies.

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Floyd, May 30, 2014.

  1. RANDOR

    RANDOR Fishin Everyday

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    Nope...................doesn't help me at all................I still have many bills to pay, the car won't start, the kid needs clothes.....and I have a family of skunks living in the wall behind my headboard.

    DaDad.....................what are ya gettin at ? :)
     
  2. DaDad

    DaDad Member

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    To All,

    1 Cor. 3;2
    I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready,

    Hebrews 5:13
    for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.


    At some point in time, we need to put on our big boy pants.

    Hebrews 5;12
    For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food,





    Or...

    Rent a Wet nurse today! Hire a Wet nurse now!
    PeopleYouWant.com Is The Largest Database of Wet nurses For Rent and Hire!


    http://www.peopleyouwant.com/Wet-nurse.html



    Goodluck,
    DD
     
  3. RANDOR

    RANDOR Fishin Everyday

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    DaDad...................are you OK?...or are ya just havin fun?
    Me don't understand one thing you are sayin today.........................You should really lay off the Peyote for awhile.
     
  4. shturt678

    shturt678 New Member

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    Thank you folks for caring!

    I think it has more to do with becoming like that little child that wades across a stream where an elephant drowns, ie, don't put on those 'big boy pants' (Math.18:4-6).

    Old Jack that never grew up, and doesn't want to,

    only agreeing to disagree.
     
  5. RANDOR

    RANDOR Fishin Everyday

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    I'm a big boy............so my pants..............must be.......

    Old Jack..............don't you ever grow up...............
     
  6. Floyd

    Floyd Active Member

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    Could we please get back to the original Post points?
    Floyd.
     
  7. DaDad

    DaDad Member

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    Hi Floyd,

    We left the conversation at Post #26:



    The point being, -- if you don't understand the Book of Daniel, you will not be able to resolve Revelation Chapters 12, 13 & 17 heads, horns, diadems, mountains, & kings. And thus far, you still don't accept Scripture for the plain text it presents:


    Dan. 2
    41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom
    45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold ... = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE


    ... and so I gave you ANOTHER plain text to see if you could accept that one:


    Daniel 1:21
    And Daniel continued until the first year of King Cyrus.

    Daniel 10:1
    In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a word was revealed to Daniel, who was named Belteshaz′zar.


    ... but I'm not having much success on that query either.



    If someone asked you what time it is, would you have to find it in a book before you'd answer?!?

    With Best Regards,
    DD
     
  8. Floyd

    Floyd Active Member

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    Your comments are noted!
    Floyd.
     
  9. DaDad

    DaDad Member

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    Your response is absent!


    DD
     
  10. shturt678

    shturt678 New Member

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    Since I happen to have a few fig trees on my property, let's look at prophecy fulfillment in light of a sadly still veiled parable, ie, "Parable of the Fig Tree" in Matt.24:32-35. btw still trying to grow up without getting old, yet trying to fit into the shoes a that little child wading across a streem - what a conundrum? Let's start by undressing the former parable.

    V.34, "shall this generation" does not contextually or grammatically refer to the contemporary generation at that time. This "generation" consists of the types of Jews whom Jesus contended with during this Tuesday, Matt.21:33-23:39. Prophecy fulfillment (Matt.24:15-28) of the destruction of the Jews as a nation which came to pass in 70 A.D. ie, there will be a remnant of Jewish Christians upon the "1" future Return of the Godman Jesus, however this type of Jew will continue till this "1" future Parousia.

    btw there are more than a remnant of Jewish Christians in the man made nation of Israel today.

    Old Jack

    btw no prophecy in Daniel governs any prophecy in the N.T., however does add depth to the N.T. interpretations.
     
  11. RANDOR

    RANDOR Fishin Everyday

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    HUH?
     
  12. Floyd

    Floyd Active Member

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    RANDOR, on 09 Jun 2014 - 02:58 AM, said:[​IMG]
    Randon; there is a book in print called "Far from Rome, Near to God".
    This is about 50 RC Priests; men of considerable learning; who the Holy Spirit reached, they responded; and found Christ Jesus.
    This a worthy and moving read!
    Another is the account of David Ginsburg, a foremost Jewish scholar, who was considered the world top Jewish language expert in approx. 1870+.
    This a brief on his life, but you can get more if you wish. Dr. David Ginsburg: (Hebrew scholar, Jewish academic, Jewish language scholar for the British Library, and Museum.)
    Floyd.
     
  13. RANDOR

    RANDOR Fishin Everyday

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    Thanks Floyd
     
  14. Floyd

    Floyd Active Member

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    You are welcome.
    Floyd.
     
  15. shturt678

    shturt678 New Member

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    Thank you folks for caring again!

    Only a head's up that the OP had also to do with the "fig tree," and not content with this parable remaining veiled in light of Matt.13:11, etc.

    Old popular Jack
     
  16. Floyd

    Floyd Active Member

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    [SIZE=28pt]The Fig[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=16pt]Gen. 3:7. The first reference to the fig in Scripture, is to the covering of Adam and Eve, when "they knew they were naked", when they moved from innocence to "knowledge as gods".[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=16pt]Deut. 8:8. Shows the full fruiting of Israel, (in Millennial).[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=16pt]1Chron.12:40. This when David made King of Israel. All the fruits are produced. This will be the case when the "Greater Son", appears for Israel.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=16pt]S. of Sol. 2:13. "The fig tree putteth forth her green figs", this love song or poem corresponds with Christ's comments in Matt. 24:32. Jehovah in Christ shows His love for Israel in Song of Solomon 2:13 and the culmination starts in Matt. 24:32. This speaks of re-adoption of the nation, as the chosen people, and eventually leads to the marriage supper.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=16pt]Jer. 8:13. Here, the figs (and grapes) are removed due to the sin of Israel. So temporarily the nation is brought low (70 years in Babylon). However the fig and grape are not restored at the restoration. That event awaits Messiah's return.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=16pt]Jer. 24. This account of the good and bad figs deals with the immediate exile to Babylon, and the yet future Millennium. Verse 5 shows a definite selection, verse 6 a re-establishment in the land, and no plucking out (Millennium); verse 7 a change of heart in Israel, and an irreversible reuniting of Jehovah and Israel (Millennial), verses 8-10, the dispersion after AD 70.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=16pt]Jer. 29:17. Here is definition and judgement of "bad figs". All that lead the people of Israel astray, diviners, false prophet, Kings etc. There is the counter part today in the false teaching, non-teaching etc. in Christendom.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=16pt]Prov. 27:18. Here speaks of Israel honouring Jehovah, and the fig tree flourishing, and the fruit produced and eaten.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=16pt]Hos. 9:10. A summary of the first condition of Israel (fig fruit), but the eventual sin and degradation (Baal-peor).[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=16pt]Joel 1:7. A lament on guilty Judah. (Joel sent to Judah, Hosea sent to Israel).[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=16pt]Joel 2:22. The future (Millennial) re-established fig and vine.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=16pt]Habb. 3:17- 19. Although Israel desolate, the eventual outcome is Joy in Jehovah.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=16pt]Hagg. 2:19. Although Israel has not yet fruited, the eventual blessing will be absolute (in Millennial).[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=16pt]Matt. 7:16 & Luke 6:44. Warning against false prophets. Look at the fruit.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=16pt]Matt. 21:19-20 Mk.11:13 & Luke 13:6-9. The Lord shows His power over all things, but figuratively this represents[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]Jehovah's near discarding of Israel, due to no fruit, (Lo-Ammi).[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=16pt]Matt. 24:32 Luke 21:29 & Mk.13: 28. Here the Lord uses the fig tree to represent Israel in the Tribulation period, (i.e. 70th week of Daniel’s vision). "The putting forth of leaves", shows a re-emergence from dormant state (Ammi) and their re-adoption as Jehovah's people, and the imminence of Millennial.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=16pt]Luke 13:6-9. The Lord is describing Israel, (the fig tree), and the time mentioned in verse 7 is the Lord's ministry to them, prior to their demise. The extra year (time period) of fertilising and effort dunging and caring, was Paul's work with Israel prior to A.D 70.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=16pt]John 1:48-50. Here Christ shows that as creator God, He knew Nathanial (and His character) when born into Israel, (under the fig tree).[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=18pt]Conclusion[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]: [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=16pt]The fruit of the trees, fig, vine, and olive are what Scripture concentrates on. The fact that the Holy Spirit in Scripture uses these three symbols relative to Israel, is due to there well known use in the area of the Promised Land. When a tree did not fruit after due care and attention by its keeper, it was and is destroyed. The use of the fruits, vine - grapes - wine, olive - oil, fig - food, and the many variations thereof, are all for food, healing, light, anointing, gladness etc. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=16pt]All these were promised to Israel and if they kept themselves to Jehovah, to His commands and away from the Caananite peoples and their pagan gods and ways. The fact that Israel was not faithful led to their demise (Lo-Ammi) until a yet future date (Millennial), and the fruits of their blessing could not flow out to the nations. When they are re-adopted, (Ammi) their own true blessing and that of the surviving nations will begin.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=16pt]Judges 9:8-14[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=16pt]The Fig tree in Scripture represents “The National Privilege of Israel”.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=16pt]The Olive tree in Scripture represents “The Religious Privilege of Israel”.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=16pt]The Vine in Scripture represents “The Spiritual Privilege of Israel”.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=16pt]Bramble Isa. 9:14. This they chose.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=16pt]This is prophetic of the false nation under the rule of the Antichirst, which will devour the Nation.[/SIZE]
     
  17. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shabbat shalom to all.

    Sheesh! What a glaring error! It should read,

    "It was NOT that he (Daniel) only existed until the first year of King Koresh...."

    I could have SWORN I "tied a NOT in that sentence!" See? We ALL make errors!

    Now,...

    Shabbat shalom, DaDad.

    You said, "Per the above, I cannot attribute how the "expositors" attributed the text "היה, "as 'to be “broken;'", but if "Retrobyter" wishes to infer that Daniel continued in his services PAST the First year of Cyrus, whereupon Daniel continued in another capacity, -- I would suggest that this presumption is faulty:"

    First of all, your "Blue Letter Bible" didn't give you any information on the words "continued even unto the," only on the word "first" which is "echad" meaning "one." It missed a few words, probably because of the Hebrew order of the words. The Masoretic text (transliterated) reads:

    Daniel 1:21
    21 Vayhiy Daaniyee’l `ad shnat achat l-Kowresh hamelekh:
    JPS Hebrew-Engish TANAKH

    Here's the breakdown of the words:

    Va- = connective conjunction; "And"
    yhiy = 3rd person singular of hayah; "he-existed"
    Daaniyee'l = proper name; "Daniel"
    `ad = adverb; "to; unto; toward; until"
    shnat = noun; "year"
    achat = adjective number; "one; first"
    l- = prefixed adverb = "to; for"
    Kowresh = proper name; "Koresh; Cyrus"
    ha- = prefixed definite article = "the"
    melekh = noun; "king."

    Thus, the straight translation of this sentence is "And he existed, Daniel, to year one for Koresh the king." For English's sake, we should add a word or two for clarification:

    "And he existed so, Daniel, to year one for Koresh the king."

    or

    "And he thus existed, Daniel, to year one for Koresh the king."

    or

    "And he existed this way, Daniel, to year one for Koresh the king."

    One should NOT add "only" to this sentence and assume that he only lived that long when he clearly lived longer than that!

    So, you then asked (generally to all instead of to me), "1. If this is so obvious to 'Retrobyter' that anyone who can't perceive this 'fact' is dense, then does 'Retrobyter' accuse the expositors of incompetence? Certainly Calvin would have had ability to read Hebrew, and certainly Calvin's expositors certainly would have been as proficient if not more so than Calvin. So who is it that slanders Calvin and his expositors?!?"

    Well, if they missed so obvious a meaning in translating Hebrew, then YES! There would be some incompetence in that omission, even if it was the great Calvin who missed it! Who was Calvin? Wasn't he just a man like you? Do you so revere the man that he could do no mistakes?! Be careful that you're not WORSHIPPING the man!

    Then, you asked "2. If 'Retrobyter' wishes to presume additional responsibilities subsequent to the 'first year of King Cyrus,' then why does Dan. 10:1 suggest otherwise?"

    Daniel 10:1 does NOT "suggest otherwise." I'm going to use the NIV for this answer:

    Daniel 10:1-3
    1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, a revelation was given to Daniel (who was called Belteshazzar). Its message was true and it concerned a great war. The understanding of the message came to him in a vision.
    2 At that time I, Daniel, mourned for three weeks. 3 I ate no choice food; no meat or wine touched my lips; and I used no lotions at all until the three weeks were over.
    NIV


    Verses 2 and 3 clearly show that Daniel is STILL ALIVE in the third year of Koresh! Otherwise, it would make no sense for him to avoid "choice food," "meat," "wine," or "lotions!" That's my POINT! Daniel didn't "survive" until just the first year of Koresh; he "lasted as Nebuchadnezzar's chief advisor, his vizier" until the first year of Koresh! He "survived" LONG after that!

    Then, you asked (stated), "3. If Dan. 10:1 were written during Cyrus' dominion, then how is it that the presumed ~victorious Darius~ needed to be 'strengthened'? Did the United States need strengthening in the post WWII era? Did Tiger Woods need strengthening after each of his golf titles? -- I would propose that the victor DOES NOT need strengthening, but the LOSER DOES:
    Proverbs 31:6
    Give strong drink to the one who is perishing, ..."

    This is when it dawned on me that you were confusing Daniel 10:1 with Daniel 11:1! (See? We ALL make mistakes! EVEN YOU!)

    I'm going to risk being a "Scripture monkey" again and give you the whole context to run into and beyond Daniel 11:1. Again, I'm going to use the NIV for its clarity:

    Daniel 10:4-11:4
    10:4 On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river, the Tigris, 5 I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of the finest gold around his waist. 6 His body was like chrysolite (gold stone), his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.
    7 I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision; the men with me did not see it, but such terror overwhelmed them that they fled and hid themselves. 8 So I was left alone, gazing at this great vision; I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale and I was helpless. 9 Then I heard him speaking, and as I listened to him, I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground.
    10 A hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees. 11 He said, "Daniel, you who are highly esteemed, consider carefully the words I am about to speak to you, and stand up, for I have now been sent to you." And when he said this to me, I stood up trembling.
    12 Then he continued, "Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. 13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. 14 Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come."

    15 While he was saying this to me, I bowed with my face toward the ground and was speechless. 16 Then one who looked like a man touched my lips, and I opened my mouth and began to speak. I said to the one standing before me, "I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my lord, and I am helpless. 17 How can I, your servant, talk with you, my lord? My strength is gone and I can hardly breathe."
    18 Again the one who looked like a man touched me and gave me strength. 19 "Do not be afraid, O man highly esteemed," he said. "Peace! Be strong now; be strong."
    When he spoke to me, I was strengthened and said, "Speak, my lord, since you have given me strength."
    20 So he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; 21 but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince. 11:1 And in the first year of Darius the Mede, I took my stand to support and protect him.)
    2 "Now then, I tell you the truth: Three more kings will appear in Persia, and then a fourth, who will be far richer than all the others. When he has gained power by his wealth, he will stir up everyone against the kingdom of Greece. 3 Then a mighty king will appear, who will rule with great power and do as he pleases. 4 After he has appeared, his empire will be broken up and parceled out toward the four winds of heaven. It will not go to his descendants, nor will it have the power he exercised, because his empire will be uprooted and given to others. ..."
    NIV


    According to what we know of history and what this messenger tells Daniel, this "Darius the Mede" is Daryavesh (Darius) the SECOND who reigned from 424 to 404 B.C! The "three more kings" and "then a fourth" are Artachshashta (Artaxerxes) the second (404-358 B.C.), Artachshashta (Artaxerxes) the third (358-338 B.C.), Artachshashta (Artaxerxes) the fourth (338-336 B.C.), and Daryavesh (Darius) the third (336-330 B.C.) The "mighty king" who appears is Alexander (the third) the Great (330-323 B.C.) That pinpoints verse 11:1 occurring in 422 B.C. Notice this too:

    This prophecy is NOT CONNECTED to the first three verses of chapter 10! That's a short and different prophecy of which we are not told much except that it occurred and that it was about a coming "great war."

    This is the great problem with chapter and verse divisions in the Bible. Often, they were made with precision, but all too frequently, they were made arbitrarily and at the worst possible points! Chapter and verse divisions ARE NOT INSPIRED!!!

    So, this tells us also that Daniel was alive until 422 B.C!

    Wikipedia has this to say about Daniel's lifespan:

    Daniel's final days
    The time and circumstances of Daniel's death have not been recorded. However, tradition maintains that Daniel was still alive in the third year of Cyrus according to the Tanakh (Daniel 10:1). He would have been almost 101 years old at that point, having been brought to Babylon when he was in his teens, more than 80 years previously. Rabbinic sources indicate that he was still alive during the reign of the Persian king Ahasuerus (Babylonian Talmud, Megillah 15a based on Book of Esther 4, 5). Some say he was killed by Haman, the prime minister of Ahasuerus (Targum Sheini on Esther, 4, 11). Many[who?] posit that he possibly died at Susa in Iran. Tradition holds that his tomb is located in Susa at a site known as Shush-e Daniyal. Other locations have been claimed as the site of his burial, including Daniel's Tomb in Kirkuk, Iraq, as well as Babylon, Egypt, Tarsus and, notably, Samarkand, which claims a tomb of Daniel (see "The Ruins of Afrasiab" in the Samarkand article), with some traditions suggesting that his remains were removed, perhaps by Tamerlane, from Susa to Samarkand (see, for instance, Itinerary of Benjamin of Tudela, section 153).


    (Emphasis mine.)

    Several people in the Bible were people of great longevity. Of course, the antediluvian society reported ages greater than 700 years old, but even Noach (Noah) AFTER the Flood survived an additional 350 years to 950 years total (Gen. 9:28-29). Shem lived for a total of 600 years (Gen. 11:10-11); Arpakhshad (Arphaxad) lived for a total of 438 years (Gen. 11:12-13); Shelach (Salah) lived for a total of 435 years (Gen. 11:14-15); Eever (Eber) lived for a total of 464 years (Gen. 11:16-17); Peleg lived for a total of 239 years as did his son Reu (Gen. 11:18-21). Avraham (Abraham) lived to 175 years old (Gen. 25:7); Yitschaq was 180 years old when he died (Gen. 35:28), and Mosheh (Moses) lived to 120 years old (Deut. 34:7), and we learn that, if it hadn't been for his sin, he may have lived longer:
    Deuteronomy 34:4-7
    4 And the LORD said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither.
    5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
    6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
    7 And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.
    KJV


    So, it shouldn't be any great stretch of the imagination to recognize Daniel living so long. N'vukhadne'tsar (Nebuchadnezzar) II reigned from 605-562 B.C. and Daniel was probably first taken captive as a teenager in the 605 B.C. captivity. This means that he could have been between 195 and 200 years old in Daniel 11:1.

    You simply MUST quit looking at all prophecies as though they are yet to be fulfilled! Some have ALREADY been fulfilled and won't be fulfilled again!
     
  18. shturt678

    shturt678 New Member

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    Thank you folks for caring!

    Although we nomally have to agree to disagree Retrobyter, I'm unable to find error in your last work.

    Old Jack,

    Kickstarted my day, thank you.
     
  19. Floyd

    Floyd Active Member

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    I say it again; You are not the Headteacher; there is Truth and non-Truth.
    Floyd.
     
  20. shturt678

    shturt678 New Member

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    Thank you again for your response!

    Let's not make this a habit of agreeing to agree, ie, two posts in a row agreeing to agree??? :mellow:

    I'm even the lowest of the teachers over here with the small group I have. Recently entered from the back of a classroom and overheard my best student say "the drill sergeant should be coming back soon." "Driller" yes, "Headteacher" no, maybe "headacher," yes?

    Old truthful, bottom of the heap, ie, lowest paygrade, Jack :)
     
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