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Prophecy Fulfilment in Revelation; relative to the Old Testament Prophecies.

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Floyd, May 30, 2014.

  1. Floyd

    Floyd Active Member

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    Although many Christians don't agree, there is clearly a link between Old Testament prophecy, and New Testament fulfilment.

    Some prominent teachers state that the events of Revelation have already been fulfilled .A Church of England Bishop recently said that was the case, (this same Bishop teaches at a very prominent UK University).

    His comments were made in response to a TV interviewers question re. the "Rapture"; and the "Left Behind" book and series of the USA.

    The Bishops comment was designed to "put to rest" fears express by some people regarding the events of Revelation, and the Book of Daniel in the Old Testament; which clearly to many Christians are linked.

    It is the writers opinion that all of Scripture is linked, with the main purpose of the salvaging of humankind by the death on the cross of Calvary of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.; both for the Jewish people, and Gentiles in the world.

    It is the writers contention that there is yet much to happen on the world scene, With much/all detail given in OT prophecy; and expressed in detail in Revelation.

    Matt.24, and corresponding references in the Gospels give much detail from our Lord's own words; which are future in context to AD 30!

    Daniel's detailed information was started in approx. BC 497; and our Lord referred to him and Isaiah frequently in His comments on future events.

    Regarding the timing of the future events; Jesus referred to the "fig tree", relative to Israel; and commented that "when it puts forth leaves, know that summer is nigh".

    Israel has been putting forth leaves for some time since 1948; so it would be reasonable to assume a near fulfillment; especially when considering that in 2018, they will have been a nation again for 70 years!

    Their nationhood was extinguished in AD 70; approx 70 after our Lord's birth!

    Floyd.
     
  2. RANDOR

    RANDOR Fishin Everyday

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    Why of course there is a link :)

    God is the same yesterday, today and forever......

    But man......can't remember yesterday much less today and forget forever.

    Good job Floyd
     
  3. DPMartin

    DPMartin Well-Known Member

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    Hay I resemble that remark ;)

    Some things that you might find of interest floyd.
    I do believe the united nations referred to the new state of Israel as the Fig Tree state, when it was agreed to support the establishment of the nation state of Israel.

    Also I do believe during the same year of the six-day war, Jerusalem became the property of the Israeli state, a result of the war, and Russia removed its embassy from Israel.

    There is a whole lot that seems to be coming to a head. Syria of course is decomposing as and entity that Israel should be concerned about. I can’t remember where I have read it in the OT prophets but there is a statement by the Lord that Damascus will become destroyed to the point that it will be uninhabitable forever. This could be that on its way. Those people have a very strange use and view of political power and how to hold it, they are capable of blowing the place up before they give it up. Also Russia has to deal with the situation in the Ukraine, because they are heavily invested into pipe lining their oil through there.


    Another thing you might want to consider when thinking about biblical prophesy. All the Bible is written by Jews to Jews in the Jewish view, looking from Jerusalem, in most cases. Though there is some arguments about the book of Job.
     
  4. shturt678

    shturt678 New Member

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    Thank you folks for caring!

    Matt.24:32-35 deals with unbelievers as well as the type of Jews that will continue to the very end, ie, nothing to do with Israel as a nation (1948) sort of thing.

    Old Jack's opinion
     
    RANDOR likes this.
  5. DaDad

    DaDad Member

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    Hi Floyd,

    Dr. John Walvoord, of Dallas Theological Seminary, titled his book: "Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation". As such I would argue that the Books of Daniel and Revelation are intimately intertwined to the point where the FIFTH "divided" empire of Clay 3-superpowers are represented by the Lion/Eagle, Bear, and Leopard (actually a Tiger) both in Dan. 7 and in Rev. 13.

    Perhaps we could equally review the sequences of Daniel 2 & 7, in conjunction with Revelation 13 & 17 to see if these also align toward the Rev. 12 identity and significance of the seven heads & seven diadems.


    With Best Regards,
    DD
     
  6. Floyd

    Floyd Active Member

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    DaDad, on 31 May 2014 - 05:06 AM, said:[​IMG]
    Hello DD:

    I have followed your comments with interest; although not always understanding your points; as you clearly have an interesting approach to this subject. I look forward to seeing more of your thoughts here, as this subject develops.
    Floyd.
     
  7. shturt678

    shturt678 New Member

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    Thank you folks for caring again!

    I'm the antithesis of all them 'big boys' ergo from the 'grain of salt' factory: The Church (new Israel) has replaced Israel in God's plan, that is, "supersession" - Church supercedes Israel. Moderns like the word "Replacement Theology."

    Old school Jack
     
  8. Floyd

    Floyd Active Member

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    This Thread is for the OP subject!
    Floyd.


    Replacement Theology

    [SIZE=16pt]What does this term mean? When checking the word "Theology" the definition is given: "The study of theistic [knowledge from or of God] (esp. Christian) religion"; with variations on that theme. Theism, specifically: "belief in a God supernaturally revealed to humankind, who created and intervenes in the universe, and who relates personally to living creatures" (Oxford English Reference Dictionary).[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=16pt]From the above we have the key words and phrases:[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=16pt]"Theo" = God, in this case the one true God; Isa. 44: 6, 45: 5.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=16pt]"Theism", knowledge from God, supernaturally revealed to humankind.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=16pt]Who relates to His living creatures, (wishes to).[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=16pt]So, in short, God the Creator of all wishes to relate and communicate with His created human beings. What you may say is the problem? That is described in Genesis, when the entity called Satan misquoted what God had said to Adam[/SIZE] regarding one tree in Eden! See: Eve and Adam
    [SIZE=16pt]To begin to understand why Satan would misquote God, Who had created him earlier, one needs to know a little about the history of Satan: See: Satan's origins;[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] and Satan's Motivation: [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=16pt]So, we see that Satan's desire is to mislead people (lie to them), on any subject, but particularly in relation to God's message to His created beings as He has given it[/SIZE] in the Bible! The Bible is Almighty God's information to humans who will look at it, to find out what is true! It may not seem so to people when they first start to read it, but if their hearts are directed to Him to request in prayer His Truth, He will by His Holy Spirit give that Truth and understanding of it, s[SIZE=16pt]ee: Understanding Scripture: [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=16pt]Many people have said to the writers, "why has God made this process so complicated"? The fact is that He hasn't, Satan has,[/SIZE] by the use of that most valued facility we all possess, free will! Yes, Satan has free will, and he used it to rebel against His Creator, and as seen in the above Links, he fell from his position as "anointed Cherub that covered", to that of "adversary" in opposition to God, and now wishes to unseat Almighty God in such a way as to be acceptable to all heavenly creation!
    [SIZE=16pt]The first assault by Satan in this current Creation in the Garden of Eden produced the fall of Eve and Adam, and introduced death into the world as a consequence! God however has made a way out of that death trap by virtue of His promise embodied in Gen. 3:15![/SIZE] This is the promise of Messiah Christ Jesus given at that early stage of the entry of death into this present world. All that is needed is for a person to accept Jesus into their lives in the knowledge of His death and resurrection, which becomes theirs vicariously from that moment on, and they are sealed in heaven, awaiting the completion.
    [SIZE=16pt]What then is the problem if Salvation is so complete and completed in Jesus Christ? The answer to that is that Satan has not yet been "bound" or "destroyed" and will not be until the appointed times, and is as Peter describes on the rampage to distort truth and to destroy, 1Peter 5:8. He has that mandate up to the time when he will attempt to destroy Israel,[/SIZE] which if he succeeded would prove God a liar, as He has stated specifically that Israel (the Jewish people) will never be destroyed; Jer. 31:35-37!
    [SIZE=16pt]Satan's main tool in his attempts to confuse and delude people on earth is the Bible itself and peoples[/SIZE] interpretation of it! As is well known, and quoted above he was successful in Eden, and even attempted to use Scripture against the Lord Himself just after His water baptism.
    [SIZE=16pt]People will say that the question arises "who is to say your interpretation is the right one"?[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=16pt]This is easily answered to someone who is sincere in the question. Firstly, the statements made by Almighty God regarding Israel in the Old Testament (O.T.) must be accepted; especially all references to Israel's continuation (Jer. 31:31-37), and all related Scriptures! If that is disputed, then that person or group does not accept the infallibility of God's statements, and no further discussion will help! God's infallibility (as opposed to that of the R.C. Pope), is[/SIZE] beyond dispute, and therefore is a sure foundation for further study of Scripture.
    [SIZE=16pt]The writers have had the experience of an apparently sincere Christian wanting to know Truth of prophecy from O.T., but when it conflicted with his and his group's teaching he rejected the Truth; for that of the comfort of the group's fellowship. This is having dire consequences for his wife and children![/SIZE]
    [SIZE=16pt]This leads us to the main point of this paper, Satan's on-going attempts to eliminate the Jewish people Israel. Until a certain point in the future when certain nations are gathered against Israel and Jerusalem (see: www.revelationsmessage.co.uk[/SIZE]), he will use all methods available to him to diminish Israel in the eyes of the world. One of his most successful strategies so far, is to convince many parts of Christendom that they are the "new Israel" and that all the blessings and promises that are contained in Scripture apply to them, and not Israel! This leads to enormous distortions of Scriptural understanding and teaching, leaving many people (and teachers) confused and disillusioned as they try to reconcile Scripture, which conflicts with their Bible interpretations, with themselves as "the new Israel"! The simple fact is that nearly all of the Bible up to Acts 28:28 applies to Israel, and on from there to the beginning of Revelation applies to Gentiles and Jews, with Gentiles "first priority"!
    [SIZE=16pt]Israel are yet to be re-adopted by God (Hos. 1-2), and their future is to be glorious as a "Kingdom of Priests" to the world. Before that they must endure more persecution; See: Israel - Prophecy - The Last Days[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=16pt]The roots of Replacement Theology go back to the early Church, and became the seed bed of 'Christian anti-Semitism' to quote C.H. Wagner. The so-called Church[/SIZE] Fathers (all Gentiles) are initially responsible for this. The teaching that 'the Church had replaced Israel' has become pernicious, and in part is responsible for the Nazi Holocaust! The Pogroms of the last 2000 years are also of the same root! The declaration of Justin Martyr (AD 160) to a Jew "the Scriptures are not yours, but ours", together with others of his near contemporary's, give the total anti-God and anti-Christ flavour of this Satanic and erroneous teaching since the formation of the Gentile Church!
    [SIZE=16pt]The Roman Church, under Constantine and Helena his mother, solidified this Satanic error, and developed it to the point (together with many other well known deliberate mis-teachings) that even Martin Luther[/SIZE] did not differentiate between the Pharisees and Israel, which differentiation is critical to true understanding of our Lord's ministry and mission to His people, in the Gospels! See: Bible Text corruption:
    [SIZE=16pt]The lesson is clear! Do not take the Bible in small parts! Know its total content and purpose! Check what your Bible teachers and leaders are saying and teaching, against what the Bible says (the Word from God)![/SIZE]
    [SIZE=16pt]This negation of Israel in the teachings of some groups can have serious consequences for them in the future, as usually the same groups have a prejudice against[/SIZE] Israel, which in some cases could make them subject to the "judgement of Sheep and Goats", see: Sheep and Goat Judgement[SIZE=16pt]. That is not to say that all people in those groups are lost; but there is the constant danger of that and of further Satanic infiltration and wrong teaching by their leaders![/SIZE]
    [SIZE=16pt]This substitution of the Church for that of Israel[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] in the minds and teaching of these groups is a successful strategy at present of Satan, and stops them from understanding what is prophesied in the Bible for Israel and the world; and from understanding the News[/SIZE] regarding particularly Israel and the Middle east, which currently is looking very pertinent to Revelation 13 (13th March 2014)!
    [SIZE=16pt]It is easy to see how "Replacement Theology"[/SIZE] can blind people to what is happening in the world and lead them into wrong understanding and conclusions. One of the marks they display is an arrogance and deafness to the Truth. The Truth is that Israel means Israel, when the Bible says such, and not the Church. Israel has a glorious future on earth during the Kingdom of God on earth, called by some Christians "the Millennial".
     
  9. DaDad

    DaDad Member

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    Hi Floyd,

    I propose that if we see the Lion , Bear , & Leopard (actu ally a Tiger) in Revelation 13, that we MUST conclude that the foundation STARTS at the Book of Daniel. And if we don't understand the Book of Daniel, we cannot fully grasp the Book of Revelation.

    After all, are there not SEVEN heads/kings in both Rev. 13 & 17, and doesn't Daniel depict SEVEN world empire players?


    With Best Regards,
    DD
     
  10. Floyd

    Floyd Active Member

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    For "old Jacks" benefit:




    Although many Christians don't agree, there is clearly a link between Old Testament prophecy, and New Testament fulfilment.

    Some prominent teachers state that the events of Revelation have already been fulfilled .A Church of England Bishop recently said that was the case, (this same Bishop teaches at a very prominent UK University).

    His comments were made in response to a TV interviewers question re. the "Rapture"; and the "Left Behind" book and series of the USA.

    The Bishops comment was designed to "put to rest" fears express by some people regarding the events of Revelation, and the Book of Daniel in the Old Testament; which clearly to many Christians are linked.

    It is the writers opinion that all of Scripture is linked, with the main purpose of the salvaging of humankind by the death on the cross of Calvary of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.; both for the Jewish people, and Gentiles in the world.

    It is the writers contention that there is yet much to happen on the world scene, With much/all detail given in OT prophecy; and expressed in detail in Revelation.

    Matt.24, and corresponding references in the Gospels give much detail from our Lord's own words; which are future in context to AD 30!

    Daniel's detailed information was started in approx. BC 497; and our Lord referred to him and Isaiah frequently in His comments on future events.

    Regarding the timing of the future events; Jesus referred to the "fig tree", relative to Israel; and commented that "when it puts forth leaves, know that summer is nigh".

    Israel has been putting forth leaves for some time since 1948; so it would be reasonable to assume a near fulfillment; especially when considering that in 2018, they will have been a nation again for 70 years!

    Their nationhood was extinguished in AD 70; approx 70 after our Lord's birth!

    Floyd.

    Edited by Floyd, Today, 12:15 AM.


    Hi DD; thanks your comments.

    In the context of the following; which are my notes on Chapter 13 of Revelation; I would value your input (and others) as to alternative thinking, when you have absorbed them.
    The Bible used is AV 1611.
    Floyd.




    [SIZE=14pt]V.1[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=14pt]And (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]he [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]stood on the sand of the sea, and I saw a ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]wild beast [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]coming up out of the sea, having (c)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]ten horns[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] seven heads,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and on his horns[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] ten crowns, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and upon his heads (d)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]names of blasphemy.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=14pt]V.2[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=14pt]And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet as the feet of a bear its mouth as a lion’s[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] mouth, and the (e)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]dragon[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] gave it [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]this power, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]also [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]its throne, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]great authority.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt](a) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"He;"[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] this is translated in AV as "I." [/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]However, as this verse in the original undivided text follows V.17 of Chapter 12, the reference is almost[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] certainly to Satan. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] (Chapters and verses have only been inserted into the Bible in recent times.) Therefore [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Satan oversees (as the god of this world) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]as he stands on the edge of the sea the[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]rising of the beast.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]Sea is often used in Scripture as a metaphor for peoples / nations, so here "he," watched the rising of a particular grouping of peoples, or personage, or both! Satan oversees this birth, whereas [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Almighty[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]God oversaw the birth of Christ from Israel (12:1-5.)[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]( B) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"Wild beast;" [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]this is the first reference in Scripture to such since Daniel (B.C. 495.) In his day, the nation of Israel was in exile in Babylon from his youth for [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]70 years[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and he was a man (Prophet) much loved by God (Dan. 9:23,) (Dan. 10:19.) Daniel was given the ability to interpret dreams, in the Power and Permit of Almighty God, to which he always paid homage and witness to His power; and did so on a number of occasions in his early captivity. One of those dreams much troubled Nebuchadnezzar (Dan. 2) and concerned the image of a man. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Daniel, after witnessing to the source of the dream (Dan. 2:28)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]gave its meaning (Dan. 2:29-45.) The man's image represented 4 kingdoms.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt]1) The head of gold represented Babylonian empire, symbol [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]LION[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]B.C. 626 -539.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt]2) The chest and arms of silver, Medo - Persia,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] BEAR [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]B.C. 539 - 330.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt]3) Belly and thighs of bronze, Greek empire, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]LEOPARD[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]B.C. 330 - 63.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt]4) Legs of iron, Roman Empire, Eagle? (Terrifying beast) B.C. 63 - [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]to: (A.D. 70 as regards Israel!)[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]* Note: The feet are discussed in verse 8 notes.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]The important principle in the above for the purpose of the Almighty, and the record made by the Holy Spirit in the Bible, is not the kingdoms as such, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]but the[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] fact that they impinge on ISRAEL when the[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]history of Israel is current (defined as "Ammi", My people)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] as opposed to the history of mankind generally. Such is the present success of Satan, that mankind is blinded to the importance of the [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Divine Clock regarding Israel.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] Israel is special to God, and are called such on many occasions in Scripture, because [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]God chose Abraham, because He knew his heart, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]and that he would be prepared to stand against the Satanic idolatry around him, Abraham responded[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]in faith,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]all the[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] promises of God in the Old Testament relate to Abraham,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]and subsequently Israel.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] Because of this fact,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] only events affecting Israel [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]in human history, and the purposes of God[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] are the subject of prophecy and record in the Bible. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] For example; in item 4) above, the Roman Empire ceased to be important in the Divine Plan at A.D. 70,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] BECAUSE ISRAEL HAD BECOME "LO-AMMI," (NOT MY PEOPLE) (HOSEA 1:9,) and that was as a consequence of the rejection of Christ as their Messiah![/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt]At some stage in the future, Jewish history as defined above will re-commence. There is however only a short time left in the Divine prophetic time scale,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] as laid out to Daniel in Dan. 9:27; which gives only 7 more years of that prophecy to run. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]In between Dan. 9:26 and V.27, already approximately 1,930 years have elapsed. These however are not Jewish years of 360 days, but a mixture of Julian and Gregorian, which allows for lost and or gained time counting. In short it is probably not possible to know the exact Jewish year which we are now in, although some claim to know (i.e. on the 1/10/00, the Jewish new year of 5,761 begins according to Jewish "Rabbinical wisdom.") [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Even if it was known, it is irrelevant, as only God the Father knows the[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]time when the Jewish nation will become[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] "[/SIZE]AMMI" (MY PEOPLE,) [SIZE=12pt]again, (Hos. 2:23,) (Zech. 13:9,)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt](Rom. 9:26,) (1Peter 2:10.) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]In Dan. 9:27 the statement of [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"a covenant," [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]gives the probable clue as to commencement of the final 7 years of the prophecy,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] as that "covenant," will be for peace for Israel.[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] When they think they have "peace and safety;" Satan in the guise of the beast in V.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]will strike [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Ezk. 38:14,) (1Thess. 5:3,)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] for the last time against Israel, (prior to the Millennial Reign); "in the midst of the week,"[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]i.e. half way through the 7 year period described above. [/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]However, turning now to the beast described in V.1 and V.2; put into its context in chapter 13 of Revelation, and bearing in mind the above, a few comments can be made with some certainty.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]1) The symbols of empires, Leopard, Lion, Bear, are repeated from earlier empires, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]affecting Israel as a nation.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] I.e. there have been other empires in that area since, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]but Israel was not a Nation in their land, under Jehovah; when their, prophetic progress is current![/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt]2) Since 1948 Israel has officially been recognised as a nation (by the then League of Nations, now the U.N.) That was the first time since A.D. 70, and the Jews kept their unique identity wherever they were scattered, although very few know their tribe of origin,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] but their Jehovah God does![/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt]3) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The fact that they are now a Nation [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]in the eyes of the world,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]probably augers the re-commencement of their Divine History, i.e. the last 7 years of Dan. 9, in the near future.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt]4)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] The identities of the[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Leopard[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt], Lion[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Bear [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]are known from Dan. 2, and this last "beast" is certainly in the prophetic geographical area,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]and in characteristics shows an amalgam of these and the previous Roman Empire. These empires covered and overlapped each other, and in the crossroads to Asia, Africa and Europe in what was known as[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Palestine, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Israel is central.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]The yet future empire (beast) described in[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] this chapter has Israel at its focal point, and is further described in Dan. 2:41-44.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt]5) The specific nations involved are probably given in[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Ezk. 32, 38, and Psm 83, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]all of which fit the above criterion, and are in the "prophetic area,"[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] i.e. the known world of Old Testament prophecy,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]and directly affecting the chosen people, Israel.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt]6) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The animal symbols given probably show characteristics of this beast, again referring to Daniel 2:29-45. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The "Leopard;" speed,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Alexander's empire from Macedonia to the Indus river, was conquered and formed in 8 years! [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The "Bear;"[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]Medo-Persia, present day Persia (Iran,) Iraq, Caucuses peoples, and half of Turkey. These may be the "feet," of the beast, they bear the weight. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The "Lion;"[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]the Babylonian Empire, with the, now defunct ancient city of Babylon at the centre, is present day Iraq, of recent infamous history. This is possibly the head/ mouth of the beast, although there is much difference of opinion on this; see Chapter 18.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt] - To summarise; this beast will form very quickly, "Leopard."[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]It will also consist of part of ancient and modern Greece,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] part now Turkey, (the area of the 7 churches. "Ekkiesia".)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt] - Its extent will be roughly the area of the Medo-Persia Empire, "Bear."[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt] - Its head/ mouth will possibly be Babylon -[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]"Lion." (As mentioned this disputed idea may be as Chapter 18, but many think Babylon is to be rebuilt. At present, 2014 this is not our view!)[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt](c) "Ten horns and seven heads;" these are well described in Dan. 7:7-8, and Dan. 7:19-28. This end time empire Confederation (beast) will probably be of the nations described above. The horns are ten kings (Dan. 7:24,) three will be replaced by one who is more powerful (V.20.) They are located in 7 countries (or areas) of the above mix.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt](d) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]“Names of blasphemy;" this fact underlines him whose power reigns in this empire; Satan.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] His throne (power base) will be in [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Pergamum (ancient Greece) (Rev. 2:13,) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](i.e. in present day Turkey,) and [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]his whole effort will be to attempt to annihilate Israel with all the power available to him[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt].[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] The "names of blasphemy," will show in part in his attempt to persuade the people of Israel and the world [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]that he is God,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and he will show much power and wonders to that end, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]his is the unforgivable sin (Matt. 12:31) and those that follow him appear to suffer the same fate. See note [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]14:1(c.)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt](e) Satanic beyond all previous, with Satan's[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]power[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and authority beyond description. As we know from Rev. 12:12 Satan knows his time is short, and he will condense the evil and terror.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=14pt]V.3[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=14pt]And one (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]head slain;[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and its ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]death stroke was healed:[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt] and all the (c)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]world [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](earth)[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]marvelled and followed [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]after the beast (empire,) (person).[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt](a) [/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]"Head slain;"[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] this "head," (nation or geographical area or individual,) "slain," is certainly one member of the empire vanquished by "the little horn," (Dan. 8:9,) which may be equated to civil war in the Confederation, and / or its leader slain.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt]( B) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"Death stroke healed;"[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] whatever the actual event or detail, the nation and or individual is revived in such a way as to cause great admiration and wonder in the world,[/SIZE] and raises the status and standing of the [SIZE=12pt]"little horn." [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]It is notable that this supernatural event [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]which is surely counterfeit of Our Lord's work,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] draws such awe, praise and worship to the individual responsible, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]whereas the miracles of our[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]Lord were and are virtually ignored.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt](c) These events cause the world to adhere to and follow the empire's Confederation's leader.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=14pt]V.4 [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=14pt]And they (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]worshipped the dragon[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]because he gave ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]power to the beast [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](leader of the Confederacy:)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and they (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]worshipped[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]the beast[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] saying, (c)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]"Who is like the beast?[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and who is able to make war with (d)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]it?[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]The stage of [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"worship,"[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] is now reached, which has been and is Satan's purpose throughout his existence, since his rebellion against his Creator.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt]( B) The world's peoples see and know the beast (Confederation) has huge power both natural and supernatural. They have seen death defeated by him[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt](apparently,)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and as is the case now,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] are more easily disposed to the worship of anything but the One True God.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]Such is the lying skill of Satan (Dan. 8:23-24,) that even[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]usually Godly and true people will be led astray [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Matt. 24:24,) because they will not know Scripture, have been[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]taught wrongly by present day leaders and shepherds![/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] But we do know that at that time [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]some do see and hear,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Christ directly, see [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]1:20(a)(b.) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] As has been shown in the early chapters, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]this is the new description of the people of the Almighty, (for that time of the events of the 7 years especially the last 3½, Overcomers.)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt](c) The people know that at that moment in time the beast and its backer (Satan) have no equal on earth, and that no other power on earth can vanquish it, but they underestimate the power of Holy Spirit given to the Overcomers (Rev. 1:20,)[/SIZE] and the actions of God after the Seals release!
    [SIZE=12pt](d) Interlinear and J.N. Darby translate[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] "it."[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=14pt]V.5[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=14pt]And there was given to him a mouth speaking (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]great things [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]blasphemy; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] power [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]was given to him to continue ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]forty[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]two months.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt](a) See Daniel 7:25, and 14:1(c.)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt]( B) See Daniel 7:25, forty two months, 3½ years, this is the second half of the 7 years mentioned above (Dan. 9:27,)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] it is also the time of the worst ever tribulation for Israel, and the time that the two Witnesses of Jehovah are active in Jerusalem (Rev. 11:3-12.)[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=14pt]V.6[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=14pt]And he opened his mouth in (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and those that dwell in heaven.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] (Dan.7:25.) The anger of the beast/Satan at his defeat in heaven, his knowledge that his time is short on earth [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] if he cannot annihilate Israel, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]leads him to slander God Almighty (the unforgivable sin, Matt. 12:31, and 14:1c ) See: [/SIZE][SIZE=medium] Empire." [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Since then the two have established separate orthodoxies, i.e. Eastern Orthodox, and Roman Church, (two legs, left and right.) The feet of the dream (Dan. 2:41) and the toes, 5 from the left leg, and 5 from the right leg; (V.42) are the subject of our present study. Verse 1 describes it as having 7 heads and 10 horns (the horns are assumed to be the toes of the "image" Dan. 2:41.) Other references to it are in Dan. 7:7 "ten horns," and 7:20 "ten horns." In 7:20 and 7:24[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] another horn rises and subdues 3 of them, and becomes very powerful. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]It is that horn in its power base that "makes war with the saints," 7:21, 7:25.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]In Rev. 13, the beast has 7 heads. In Dan. 7:20 the ten horns are on one head, implying that the 7 nations have[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] become one power (Confederation,)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] under the most powerful horn 7:21. The identity of the little horn is the next concern. In Dan. 8:23 we are shown that he arrives out of the divided kingdom of Alexander the Great, (8:21-22,) which divided between his four Generals at the death of Alexander. We also have many Scripture references to him. I.e; in Dan. 8:23 the correct Hebrew shows that "the transgression," [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](against Israel) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]are to reach a peak, before "he," "shall stand up."[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]This clearly points to the Tribulation imposed on the Jews by him [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Satan)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] in the background, and almost certainly his full exposure ("standing up") will correspond with the[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] breaking of "the covenant," (Dan. 9:27.)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]His highest representative on earth is commonly called "Antichrist." Through the Ages he has had various roles on earth i.e. (Isa. 14:4,) (Isa. 14:12,) (Isa. 14:25,) (Dan. 7:8) (Dan. 8:23,) (Dan. 9:26,) (Dan. 11:36,) (Mic. 5:5,) (2 Thess. 2:3,) (2 Thess. 2:8,) (Rev. 13:1,) (Rev.13:18.) Some of the above apply to his future role as Antichrist.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]In summary, the "little horn," Antichrist emerges from the 4th beast (confederacy) as its leader. Initially magnanimous to Israel, there is a 3½ year period of peace for them. After the first 3½ years, he breaks the agreement with Israel and they enter persecution (Jer. 30:7,) known in prophecy as "Jacob's trouble," for 3½ years. [/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]However, this is the stage of the dramatic re-entry of the Christ of Jehovah onto the world stage for the first time in Power (Dan. 2:34-35, 44 and 45,) (Isa.) (Zech.) (Ezk.) etc.[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Simultaneously or partly simultaneously (apparently) much is happening to the nations of the world, which is not of Satan, but the[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"wrath of[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]God," (Rev. 16:1.)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] "Book of the life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world." [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] The word "foundation" in Greek is "Katabole," which means [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"overthrow."[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] This seems to have occurred at some stage between Gen. 1:1, and Gen. 1:2, see:[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]The Age of the Earth Controversy:[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] No information is given as to the reason, but is implicit in Almighty God's Plan of Redemption in Christ, as the Lamb's book of life started after that event! Much clarity is given by Paul and Peter regarding this juncture point. It is clear from Eph. 1:4, and 1 Peter 1:20 that some are "known," before the "overthrow," some after. Only Christ and His Body as shown in Eph. 1:4 and 1Peter 1:20 are "known" before the overthrow (foundation.)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]Those after are the Jew, and other groups, i.e. perhaps Christendom (religious but not of the Body of Christ,) Overcomers of Revelation, and all who must eventually stand before the Great White Throne for Judgement.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] Here those after are referred to. Those before are possibly, probably, in the opinion of the writers, no longer on earth as mentioned earlier, (see chp. 8:1(a,) last para.) Some opinions are that The Lamb's book of life started before the overthrow/foundation, which however is not the writers view, as that does not concur with Scripture's statements, (see ref. Rev.3:5(c).) What is clear is that The Lamb's Blood is retrospective from the overthrow/foundation, and that there are two groupings, those known before and those after.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]V.9 [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium](a)If any person have an ear, let them hear[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium](a) This form of words only ever used by [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Our Lord alone[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] (Matt. 7:29.) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] In Revelation the first usage was 2:7, this is the 8th and last in Revelation. The fact of its 8th position, indicates a new commencement, or new beginning (App. 10 Comp.) in the following chapters much detail is given on what has already been covered briefly. The pronouncement (or warning) to understand, clearly stands on the edge of the wrath of God, (Rev. 16:1.) Our Lord's use of the phrase 7 times in His earthly walk, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]was always used to draw special[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]attention to what He was saying,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]and to emphasise its crucial and eternal nature. The 7 occasions are; (Matt. 11:15,) (Matt. 13:9,) (Matt. 13:43,) (Mark 4:23,) (Mark 7:16,) and (Luke 8:8,) (Luke 14:35.) The fact of the number 7, puts the mark of the Holy Spirit onto the Lord's words, 7 denoting spiritual perfection, (App. 10 Comp.)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]V.10 [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium](a)He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patient endurance and the faith of the saints.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium](a) These are known as "Hebraisms," (or Hebrew idioms,) (sayings,) which when the Holy Spirit uses them in Scripture, have the meaning of inescapable inevitability. In this case meaning, "none will escape the meaning and the beast," (Comp.) but that patient endurance will[/SIZE] see the demise of the beast!, as he is the one being led into captivity eventually.
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]V.11[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]And I saw (a)another (b)east coming up out of the earth; and he had (c)two horns like a lamb[/SIZE], and he was (d)speaking as a dragon.
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium](a) "Another;" the Greek word (allos,) means [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"another of the same kind," (Comp. App. 124-1.)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]( B) "Beast;" (i.e. "wild beast," but distinguished from that of V.1.)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium](c) The fact of similarity to a [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"lamb,"[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] shows inescapable similarity to the [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"Lamb of God,"[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and is intended as such. The two horns speak of testimony (App. 10) or difference. When two testimonies agree, it is conclusive. Horns in Scripture always speak of kingships, or power (relative to earth.) So here two horns agree, (testimony,) conveyed by "a lamb," (spiritual or religious figure.)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium](d) "Speaking as a dragon;" in Scripture,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] only Satan.[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] So, after the first beast (political,) arises and is established, this second "beast," (religious) arises[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]which is empowered by Satan, and whose task is to bring about worship from the people (V.15,) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]and therefore remove worship and allegiance from the"One True God," Jehovah Zebaoth! [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] This beast is led by the false prophet of Chp. 16:13, 19:20, 20:10.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]V.12[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]And he exercised all the (a)power [/SIZE]of the first beast before him, and caused the earth and them that dwell therein to ( B)worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium](a) Here the 2nd "beast," shows itself to be similar to the first (V.11,) with the same power, but with a different emphasis.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]( B) The emphasis is [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"worship!"[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]The politics of the first beast brought about the attention and focus of the peoples, which is now to be turned further into "worship," (vicariously of Satan) which as stated previously is the motive force and objective of Satan from earlier ages.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]V.13 [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]And he doeth (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]great wonders[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] including making (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]fire[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] descend from heaven onto the earth in the sight of men,[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]V.14[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]And ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]deceived[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] them dwelling on the earth by means of those wonders, which it was given him to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an (c)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]image to the beast, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]which had the wound of a sword, and did live.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium](a) "Great wonders;" nothing impresses mankind more than demonstrations of power, especially when they lean to the mystery and charisma that only Satan can generate (i.e. towards darkness.) When[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Elijah [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]contended with the priests of Baal, (1Kings 18,) bringing [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]fire[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] down from heaven in the contest,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]defeating the Baal priests, slaying them and[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] winning the day for, and by Jehovah, he was not a popular man (1Kings 19.) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]When our Lord did the required miracles (signs) (Isa. 29:18,) (Isa. 35:5-6,) (Matt. 11:4-5,) (Rom. 15:8,) they were derided by the Pharisees and priesthood, and rejected by them,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] because they adhered to the 'Wisdom Writings' of their teachers, instead of the 'Bibical Torah,' given by Jehovah to Moses! This was derided by John the Baptist, Jesus and Apostle Paul! [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Here this beast (false prophet,) (2 Thess. 2:9,) (Rev. 16:13) does "great wonders," and is accepted, instantly.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]( B)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] Deceit is Satan's main method (Rev. 20:3,) (Rev. 20:8,) and with humans it started in the Garden of Eden with Eve.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium](c) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"Image;"[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] Almighty God expressly forbade Israel to make any image for worship (Lev. 26:1,) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]in that command, God states that He is their God (Jehovah.) In John's Gospel (4:23-24,) the mind of the Father is revealed, requiring only [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"worship in spirit and in truth."[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] Stating clearly that [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]He is "Spirit[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]," [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]and [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]requiring only sincere from the heart worship, as opposed to ritual and ceremony.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] The Enemy therefore, through the second beast requires the opposite, i.e. image, ritual and ceremony, (reminiscent of the Roman Church,) so as to maximise idolatry and worship of Satan.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]V.15 [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]And (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]it was given to him[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] to give ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]life unto the image of the beast,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] in order that the image of the beast should ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]speak,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast be ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]killed.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium](a) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"It was given him;" [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]this phrase occurs also in Vs. 5 and 7. The Greek (didomo) for "given," (Str. no. 1325,) has a wide definition, among which are; "to give, bestow, to bring forth, to deliver up, to grant, to minister, to have power, etc." The A.V. renders it, "he had power;" the Interlinear, "it was given to it;" the Companion Bible corrects the A.V. text to, "it was given him;" J.N. Darby "it was given to it;" the Revised Standard, "it was allowed." The obvious question is who is giving this power to the 2nd beast (like a lamb,) which of course can only be answered, by the great Enemy Satan (2 Thess. 2:9-10.) [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]However, we know from God's Word that all life is of Him (Job 1:21,) (Job 33:4,) (Ecc. 12:7,) (Isa. 37:16,) (Isa. 40:13,) (Isa. 44:6,) (Jer. 10:12,) (Heb. 3:4,) so that the ultimate source of the power is Almighty God, as He allows Satan to do his worst for a very specific reason, shown in Rev. 20:11-12. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Part of Jehovah's reasons are discussed in Chapter 12:V4, V.5, V12, and elsewhere.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]( B) This religious figure is "given," the power to put "life" into the image, causing it to speak, and be worshipped. The degree of power that will then reside with this 2nd beast is expressed in the ultimate earthly sanction; [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]physical death. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]For that to be possible, a very high level of physical and mental control will be established on earth (see note at the beginning of Chapter 9) over the population.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]V.16 [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]And he caused all, small and great, rich and poor, free and bond servant, to be [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]marked on[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]the right hand, or on the forehead:[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]V.17[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]So that no one may[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]buy or sell, except those with the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](c)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]mark, or the[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt](c)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]name of the beast, or the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](c)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]number representing his[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]name.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium](a) At the time the Holy Spirit penned these words via. John on Patmos, the world (then known) was a much smaller place than now. However, with modern communications and travel speeds some would say that in fact it is smaller in the sense of actions etc. Many commentators on Scripture cannot agree on who is marked, and many prefer to say [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Israel only[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] is involved. It is true that the meaning can seem ambiguous, but it is the opinion of the writers that possibly all peoples of the world are involved, where Jews of the Diaspora are living, but that the Jews are the primary target.[/SIZE] There are a number of compelling reasons for this conclusion. The debate hinges for some on the simple Greek translation of the word for "earth," (Ge) as in V.8 and in many places. The definition for (Str. 1093,) is wider than the Comp (App. 129:4,) but both generally agree. Verse 7 in this case supports the view of world-wide application, i.e. "over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." [SIZE=12pt]The fact is that there are many more Jews still dispersed throughout the world than in Israel, its present borders could not hold them! The present population of Israel is probably less than that of New York alone! All the Jews outside the focal point (Israel) of these future events will be affected and involved, because Antichrist will be seeking them out. That is the reason that our Lord is so emphatic in His statement regarding [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"His brethren," in Matt. 25:40[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt](see Matt. 25: 31-46,) and our Lord's comments and actions are internationally focused as is clear from His words in Matt. 25. This fact augers for the same emphasis in V 17 statement.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]God has sealed people in the forehead, prior to great trouble in the past, (Ezk. 9:4) (Rev. 7:3.) This marking by Satan is the anti-thesis, and is his promise of protection to his people.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]Summary: One of the possibilities of the "marking," of the Jews of Israel in and around Jerusalem, and also of the Diaspora spread around the world, is that in this case both "land" and "world" are intended. The focus in Revelation is "overcoming," but also the witness and fidelity to Christ as Messiah and Saviour. Not many Jews will refuse the "Mark" because of Christ, but because of their "Orthodox (Pharisaic) beliefs," and because the beast is demanding worship,V.15. These may well be the ones who "look on Him who they pierced," if they are of the[/SIZE] "Preserved Remnant". The fact of our Lord's emphasis on the judgement of the Gentile nations on "how did you treat my brethren?" (Matt.25:32-46,) obviously indicates the Gentiles who are sympathetic or not to the Jews world-wide during "Jacob's Trouble" period, and it is quite possible that Satan's tyranny (although focused on the Jews of Israel,) may extend to those who support the Jews. His power will be such at that time, that he will not be stopped by the rulers in individual countries from persecuting Gentile sympathisers, as the rulers of each nation will be in sympathy with his anti-Jewish actions, and will chime with the world-wide anti-Semitic atmosphere. This tentative comment may well be supported by the reference in Revelation 7:9-17, where the great multitude of people of all nations are shown to have come out of "the great Tribulation," and have washed their robes in the "blood of the Lamb." This latter comment if fact, supports the idea that the Lord's Body has been taken by that time!
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]( B) So the worshippers of this future Antichrist figure, are also marked to allow permit to "buy and sell," (trade etc.,) which will be strictly controlled, making life for those outside the favour of this Satanic system very hard. It has to be remembered that this state of affairs is only [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]3½ years in duration,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]however most people will not know this,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]and they will be controlled to such an extent that such information the Bible holds will not be easily available and in any case will not be understood, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]hence the special Holy Spirit upholding of the groups mentioned in the early chapters.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium](c) "Mark, name, or number;" these terrible symbols, will denote more than just permit, (to trade etc.,) but will also denote ownership! Satan will own these individuals in the same way, and to the same degree as the heavenly beings that are his. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Regarding the angels of heaven [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]that followed and belong to Satan, according to Rev. 5:11, the original Hebrew words mean "countless numbers," this means that as one third of heaven's angels that followed Satan cannot be numbered (by humans,) but the number almost certainly will be much larger than the human population that are marked. In the year 1999, the population of earth reached 6,000,000,000 (6 billion,) this number given by the U.N. If current projections are correct, by 2020 approx. 20 billion people may inhabit the planet (projections vary.) (In 2014, the number is just under 7.5 billion).[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] Numbers of people will be large, but compared with heaven's population the numbers are probably small. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]It is worth reiterating here the reason Satan will work so hard against Israel; his purpose is to annihilate Israel. [/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]If he were to succeed, the promises to Abraham by Jehovah would be null and[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]void, as Jehovah has promised that Israel will never cease to be a nation (Jer. 31:35-37) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]and Satan [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]would become ruler of the earth and will have successfully challenged Almighty God![/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] He will use all natural and supernatural means at his disposal, including the earth's population,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] of which he needs as many as he can get, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]as the human race is the [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]main target [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]after his success in heaven![/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]Therefore his methods are subtly tailored to try to entrap as many of the unwary as possible, to augment his success in heaven! As seen above, Satan has under his control countless angels, and also humans who are marked and [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]who worship him openly,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] to be able to live and trade during his power period on earth! Satan's people however have been converting to him since the flood, and prior to that since Eden. His methods are varied, some easy to see such as open pagan worship in its multitude of forms. However in these times, the methods blend into the credible, so that many so-called "christian" groups say they have the "truth," [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]but in reality are a perverted form of "christianity."[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]The many variations of these make listing impossible, but what they have in common is dominant leadership, which after a "honeymoon" period, demands that the individual's mind, will, actions, and often substance, come under their control! [/SIZE]Their teachings they demand, are the ONLY ones which are true! They will not allow open questioning of their teaching, or their interpretation of the Bible, (sometimes their own version,) their activities or their leadership, etc.! They demand mindless obedience. The Jehovah Witnesses are an obvious fit to the above, but also Charismatics, Pentecostals, Roman Church, The New Age Movement, and some parts of the Ecumenical Movement, etc. In these groups and their ilk, many humans are being trapped, and they will not question their controllers for fear of loss of favour and group! If they do not, they are in danger of not having the Truth, and being deceived.
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]The most precious organ the Almighty gives us is our brain,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] it should be abdicated to nobody! Bible revering Christian groups will never demand these things, and the best will post their list of Bible beliefs in a prominent position, so that a person knows what they are subscribing to before they join! They are also Christ centred in Truth, and are not deceived by the many different "christs" that our Lord warned about (Matt. 24:24, Mark 13:22 .)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]V.18[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]Here is (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]wisdom.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] Let him that hath (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]understanding [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]count the number of the beast: for it is the number [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]of a [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]man; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and his number is ( B)Six hundred threescore and six.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium](a) Not surprisingly this verse is the most widely known verse of Revelation, by many types of groups worldwide including those of the Enemy. "Wisdom, understanding;" the Greek (Sunesis = wisdom) renders; insight, understanding, capacity to comprehend, use of thought. These qualities are prerequisite to the task.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]( B) Here the beast equated to [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]a "man," and his "number," 666. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Much has been written on this subject, and will continue to be so. It is almost certain that [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]the identity of the man will not be known until the[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]time of the[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] events.[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] However, the principle of the calculation are already well understood. In ancient times letters of the alphabet served as numbers, and many and various devices ensued, i.e. riddles etc. Various attempts at naming 666 in the early church were attempted including Nero Caesar, by Gematria (substitution of numbers by letters of Hebrew alphabet.) In this process the 22 symbols of the Hebrew alphabet are numbered. The first ten, from 1-10. The next 8, from 20 - 90 in intervals of ten. The final 4 are 100, 200, 300 & 400. If any language can lay claim to valid use by Gematria, it is the original Hebrew. This is because the language in its original form was given by Almighty God to His people. Many will cry against that statement, but they are the same people who cannot understand the Holy Scriptures. The Bible cannot be understood unless a person:[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]1) Reveres God, and sincerely studies His Word, (Isa. 29:11-13.)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]2) Must want to know His Word, (Psm. 119:162), and rejoice in it.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]3) Must labour (work at) the Word, as a task (which becomes joyful) (2 Tim. 2:15.)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]The statement is made by the Holy Spirit in His Word that "it is perfect," (Psm. 12:6,) "and purified 7 times." For such a statement to be made by Almighty God, means He is using the perfect language (Hebrew) to convey His message. It is a fact that Daniel 2:4 to 7:28 is written in Aramaic/Chaldee, but that is to differentiate the Gentile historic section, and to compare it to the Jewish prophetic section (in Hebrew) regarding "the time of the end," (Comp. page[/SIZE] 1178.) The fact that the New Testament is in Greek, means the Holy Spirit has refined the use for His purpose, and that therefore the Greek possibly can be used also for Gematria. [SIZE=12pt]However; when the "time of the end," is reached, Hebrew and Greek Gematria can be cross checked! [/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]There has been recently a translation from Aramaic of the "Pshitta," which is reputed to have been held by the "Eastern church," unsullied by translation to "Western languages." This was/is being undertaken by an ancient languages scholar in the USA, and makes interesting reading. It can be used for comparison; See: [/SIZE] Ancient Aramaic Manuscripts, Pshitta O and A:[SIZE=medium] (Separate study.)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]The argument is presented by some scholars, that there are many errors in Scripture. By others that many parts are written after prophetic fulfilment. These are inevitable attacks. Those who are sincere go on to study the Word [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]with their minds and hearts stayed on Christ / Jehovah God,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]and come to realise that the so called errors are Satanically inspired and conspired over the centuries, by human and demonic interference.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]Where the Bible uses numbers therefore it is extremely important, and careful note must be taken as to meaning. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]It is noteworthy that SSS = 666 in this method[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] which forms the symbol of Isis, which derived from Egypt; which derived from Babylon; [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]and which the Roman church adopted; (Isis and Horus)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt](mother and child,) so as not to anger the Roman pagans. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]This has led to the major error/perversion in the Roman[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]church of "Maryology," (worship of Mary,) as intercessor for sinners to God,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] removing at a stroke the unique work of our Lord and Saviour on the cross.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] All of which together with the priestly confessional system totally undermines [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]the truth of access to God through[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]Christ our Lord (Acts 4:12.)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] SSS is also the secret symbol of the[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]"Old Mysteries[/SIZE]," [SIZE=12pt]all of which emanate from ancient Babylon. They spread across the world, to China and the Far East via. India; to Europe via. Egypt, and Greece; to South America via. the mid. - Atlantic islands. These carriers are now known by genetic testing to be Iberian, the same tests show Siberian and Polynesian genetics in the north and south American Indians, which according to archaeological dating is many thousands of years before Columbus! Also, in South America there is evidence of an African type "Civilisation," now apparently extinct which flourished thousands of years ago. The remaining ruins show prolific Negroid facial features! Latterly to the so called "new world countries," by emigration. In the case of Europe, the Greek teachings of Plato, Socrates and others entered the Christendom teachings, and have led to many errors now taught in official theology.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]Satan heads up all of these false ideas and religions, and in his final attempt on earth, will bring all of the above into play, as he captures the hearts and minds of people in each country.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]666 was the secret symbol [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]of the ancient pagan mysteries connected with the worship of the Devil,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and the number has some surprising meanings already known. For example, the Romans only used six of their letters as numbers i.e. D,C,L,X,V,I. As shown below they total 666![/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] D = 500) [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] C = 100) 600[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] L = 50) [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] X = 10) 60[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] V = 5) [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] I = 1) 6 [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] 666[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]When using the Greek language for Gematria, 666 becomes SSS, the ancient mysteries symbol, as S = 6. A special form of S was used called "STIGMA," which means [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]MARK, by branding!! [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] This was used on cattle, slaves, soldiers etc., by those that owned them. Some remarkable historic facts are: (Numbers in Scripture: Dr. E.W. Bullinger.)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]1) The duration of the old Assyrian Empire, 666 years.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]2) Jerusalem trodden down by Rome 666 years.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]3) Goliath was 6 cubits tall, had 6 pieces of armour, his spear 600 shekels of iron (1 Sam. 17:4-7,) (Goliath was considered Nephilim!)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]4) Nebuchadnezzar's "image," 60 cubits tall, 6 cubits broad (Dan. 3:1,) and was worshipped when music played on 6 specific instruments.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]5) 666 talents of gold brought to Solomon in a year (1 Kings 10:14.)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]The number of man in Scripture is 6,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and where it is at its maximum concentration is 666! (As 3 in Scripture denotes completeness.) Man has ruled the world disastrously since Adam. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] When the 666[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]is finished, God's rule on earth begins, and lasts 1000 years,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] prior to the new heaven and earth (Rev. 21:1.) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] The rule on earth will have Christ Jesus at the focal point of power and rule (Jerusalem,) (Zech.) etc. There is much that can be said about the number[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]888,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] but put simply it is the number of the name of Jesus in Greek Gematria.[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] The Hebrew (SH'MONEH,) from the root (SHAH'MEYN,) "to make fat," "cover with fat," "to super abound," is the Hebrew number 8 by Gematria. It also represents in Scripture, "resurrection," "regeneration," "a new beginning or commencement!" Hence the perfect completeness (3) of 8 = 888 = Jesus Christ in Millennial. The number 8 permeates the whole of Scripture, which speaks of CHRIST![/SIZE]
     
  11. DaDad

    DaDad Member

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    Hi Floyd,

    Not to be an offense, but the best way to shoot a bird is to aim at one at a time. As such please allow one aspect at a time, as excerpted above:


    The foundation Daniel 2 would appear to define FIVE world empires NOT Four:

    Dan. 2
    41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom
    45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold ... = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE

    Please note that verse 41 CALLS the "feet and toes" a "kingdom"; and verse 45 delineates a distinct empire of Clay , as separate from the Iron , by the insertion of the Bronze between them.
    Furthermo re, if one were to evaluate History against Scripture, I believe one should find that we are presently in a "divided" empire era where we have 3-superpowers, and a pending one-world-government.



    With Best Regards,
    DD
     
  12. Floyd

    Floyd Active Member

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    Yes DD, we agree.
    The 5th is alluded to in the comment re. the "feet", in V8.


    [SIZE=14pt]V.8[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=14pt]And all that dwell upon the earth shall (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]worship[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]him every one whose name is not written in the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](b)book of the life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt](a) Here is reached probably the highest point on earth (as opposed to heaven) for the beast/Satan who now has many of the earth's population openly worshipping him directly, and via. his[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] false messiah[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]and false prophet, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]some believing that he is the true God.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]It is quite possible that the charade of Satan is so convincing that the established religions will accept him as [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Messiah (in the case of the Jews,) the risen Christ (in the case of Christendom,) the hidden Imam (in the case of Islam,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]) the 5th Buddha (in the case of Buddhists,) and the Maitreya (in the case of the New Agers.) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]This especially so as the beast will "hate the whore," [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Rev. 17:16)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and appear to destroy her, which is clearly[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] false righteousness[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] for the effect of drawing their large groups together. The question arises, who is this entity described as[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]"the beast?"[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt](See 2:6 above.)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] Chapter 2 of Daniel describes the figure in Nebuchadnezzar's dream. When the legs are reached they are described as iron (V.33,) and from history are clearly military and religious Rome. The ending of the military phase of Rome started in the 4th century A.D.[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] under Constantine. [/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]He and his [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]very influential mother Helena,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] began the conversion of the empire [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]into a military and religious body,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]for many reasons, including the main one, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]effective control of the empire and people. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Constantine set up his own capital at Byzantium/Stambul (Istambul) which he re-named Constantinople. This alienated Rome, which by the 11th century A.D., split completely into the East and West of the original [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"Holy Roman[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]Empire." [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Since then the two have established separate orthodoxies, i.e. Eastern Orthodox, and Roman Church, (two legs, left and right.) The feet of the dream (Dan. 2:41) and the toes, 5 from the left leg, and 5 from the right leg; (V.42) are the subject of our present study. Verse 1 describes it as having 7 heads and 10 horns (the horns are assumed to be the toes of the "image" Dan. 2:41.) Other references to it are in Dan. 7:7 "ten horns," and 7:20 "ten horns." In 7:20 and 7:24[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] another horn rises and subdues 3 of them, and becomes very powerful. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]It is that horn in its power base that "makes war with the saints," 7:21, 7:25.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]In Rev. 13, the beast has 7 heads. In Dan. 7:20 the ten horns are on one head, implying that the 7 nations have[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] become one power (Confederation,)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] under the most powerful horn 7:21. The identity of the little horn is the next concern. In Dan. 8:23 we are shown that he arrives out of the divided kingdom of Alexander the Great, (8:21-22,) which divided between his four Generals at the death of Alexander. We also have many Scripture references to him. I.e; in Dan. 8:23 the correct Hebrew shows that "the transgression," [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](against Israel) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]are to reach a peak, before "he," "shall stand up."[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]This clearly points to the Tribulation imposed on the Jews by him [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](Satan)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] in the background, and almost certainly his full exposure ("standing up") will correspond with the[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] breaking of "the covenant," (Dan. 9:27.)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]His highest representative on earth is commonly called "Antichrist." Through the Ages he has had various roles on earth i.e. (Isa. 14:4,) (Isa. 14:12,) (Isa. 14:25,) (Dan. 7:8) (Dan. 8:23,) (Dan. 9:26,) (Dan. 11:36,) (Mic. 5:5,) (2 Thess. 2:3,) (2 Thess. 2:8,) (Rev. 13:1,) (Rev.13:18.) Some of the above apply to his future role as Antichrist.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=13.5pt]In summary, the "little horn," Antichrist emerges from the 4th beast (confederacy) as its leader. Initially magnanimous to Israel, there is a 3½ year period of peace for them. After the first 3½ years, he breaks the agreement with Israel and they enter persecution (Jer. 30:7,) known in prophecy as "Jacob's trouble," for 3½ years. [/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]However, this is the stage of the dramatic re-entry of the Christ of Jehovah onto the world stage for the first time in Power (Dan. 2:34-35, 44 and 45,) (Isa.) (Zech.) (Ezk.) etc.[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Simultaneously or partly simultaneously (apparently) much is happening to the nations of the world, which is not of Satan, but the[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"wrath of[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]God," (Rev. 16:1.)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt](b)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] "Book of the life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world." [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] The word "foundation" in Greek is "Katabole," which means [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"overthrow."[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] This seems to have occurred at some stage between Gen. 1:1, and Gen. 1:2, see:[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]The Age of the Earth Controversy:[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] No information is given as to the reason, but is implicit in Almighty God's Plan of Redemption in Christ, as the Lamb's book of life started after that event! Much clarity is given by Paul and Peter regarding this juncture point. It is clear from Eph. 1:4, and 1 Peter 1:20 that some are "known," before the "overthrow," some after. Only Christ and His Body as shown in Eph. 1:4 and 1Peter 1:20 are "known" before the overthrow (foundation.)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]Those after are the Jew, and other groups, i.e. perhaps Christendom (religious but not of the Body of Christ,) Overcomers of Revelation, and all who must eventually stand before the Great White Throne for Judgement.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] Here those after are referred to. Those before are possibly, probably, in the opinion of the writers, no longer on earth as mentioned earlier, (see chp. 8:1(a,) last para.) Some opinions are that The Lamb's book of life started before the overthrow/foundation, which however is not the writers view, as that does not concur with Scripture's statements, (see ref. Rev.3:5(c).) What is clear is that The Lamb's Blood is retrospective from the overthrow/foundation, and that there are two groupings, those known before and those after.[/SIZE]


    Floyd.
     
  13. DaDad

    DaDad Member

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    Hi Floyd,

    Actually, we do NOT agree. You present the Fourth Roman Empire in multiple contradictions with Scripture:


    #1.
    In fact, Scripture and simple physiology defines your purported "division"as in the "belly and thighs" if anywhere.


    #2.
    I would propose that before you start assigning any aspects, that you FIRST reconcile why Dan. 2 provides for a distinct FIFTH world empire and you ignore it:

    Dan. 2
    41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom
    45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold ... = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE



    Floyd, this is going to be a short discussion if we can't resolve the simple things. And the solution to the Rev. 12 seven heads/diadems versus the Rev. 13 ten horns/diadems will remain unsolved.


    With Best Regards,
    DD
     
  14. Floyd

    Floyd Active Member

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    The floor is yours DD.

    I am happy to listen to your formulations/alternatives.
    Please go ahead.

    Floyd.
     
  15. shturt678

    shturt678 New Member

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    Thank you folks for caring!

    Matt.24:34, "This generation" consists of the type of Jews whom Jesus contended with, that is, this is the only connection with the nation of Israel contextually. Jesus foretells the destruction of their nation (Matt.24:15-28). Yet even after the destruction of the nation Israel this type of Jew worldwide will continue to the very forthcoming "1" Parousia. It's continued to this very day. The voice of Jewish rejection rejection of the Godman Christ is as loud and as vicious as ever. This is the answer to those who expect a final national conversion of the Jews either with or without a Jewish millennium.

    Living in Hawaii, we have vicious termites living in the 'floor' thus recently fumigated.

    Old Jack that actually like the termites in the 'floor' for some reason.
     
  16. DaDad

    DaDad Member

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    Hi Floyd,

    First, GOD says: "come let us reason together". As such we need to resolve Daniel 2 as provided:

    Dan. 2
    41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom
    45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold ... = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE


    Per the above, is there any reasonable excuse for disallowing this FIFTH "divided kingdom", as deliberately separate from the Iron? Is there any way a person could make the mistake of assigning this empire of Clay as under the empire of Iron? -- Most certainly.

    Some would observe that there is a reside of Iron in the Feet of Clay, and presume there is a Scriptural contradiction, for which they IGNORE one aspect and "OBEY" the second aspect. But what is OBEDIENCE except that ALL Scripture be reconciled. Thus if BOTH aren't correct, then NEITHER are correct.

    So how do we reconcile the residue of Iron in the Feet of Clay? Simple, -- the Roman empire was never conquered and replaced. It simply dissolved into the dust bin of history. So the disparate kingdoms, fifedoms, and regions were no longer "Roman", but still used the Roman Republic model as there was no new model. Thus today in this empire of Clay, virtually all governments are REPUBLICS, -- the residue of Iron:

    ... and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation under GOD, indivisible ..


    And finally, I believe that history accounts that this FIFTH "divided" empire of Clay is realized in this 3-superpower era, with a 4th one-world-government on the horizon.



    Given my preference for a discussion one-point-at-a-time, I will look forward to continuing to the next aspect.

    With Best Regards,
    DD
     
  17. Floyd

    Floyd Active Member

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    You are dead wrong Jack; read Zech.12:10!
    Floyd.
    Your thoughts here are certainly interesting DD.
    I have heard similar ideas before, but not to the detail that you have given so far.
    You know my basic thinking on this subject, and the feet and toes of "baked clay" (NKJV) have been on my mind and heart for many years.
    As you know, in my basic thesis, (which as stated in the cover note) all my comments are speculative and open to question; which is why I welcome your thinking; and as many others here who will offer theirs.
    One direct question I have for you so far; regarding Dan.2:43; how do you interpret the comment "they will mingle with the seed of men" (NKJV)?
    Floyd.
     
  18. DaDad

    DaDad Member

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    Hi Floyd,

    Daniel 2:43 (RSV)
    43 As you saw the iron mixed with miry clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay.

    First of all we should consider what the Iron represents:
    [SIZE=12pt]The Senatus Populusque Romanus, the “Senate and the Roman People,” was comprised of a Senate which represented the wealthy class; and a Centuriate Assembly which provided representation for the commoners[/SIZE]

    Secondly, I would propose what the Clay represents:
    In 1919, the 17th Amendment was passed, which remove Senators from election by States, to election by populous, which is a deconstruct of the Republic model and a move toward a Democratic model.

    As such I would anticipate that these two models are not compatible and this verse depicts class warfare strife.


    With Best Regards,
    DD
    .
     
  19. Floyd

    Floyd Active Member

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    Thanks DD.
    I checked my old RSV, and it concurs.
    Your knowledge of American History is interesting, re this subject; presumably you feel it is valid to apply to ancient prophecy because of the shrinkage of the world in terms of information ,travel etc. (Dan. 12:4).
    However; you know my thoughts re "the prophetic area", at present.
    At present I am taking as much alternative info. as possible on this subject into my head, and look forward to more of the same.
    What is your opinion of the RSV, compared with the NKJV?
    I am very cautious re. some of the latest translations, with what has been called "liberal bias".
    Floyd.
     
  20. DaDad

    DaDad Member

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    Hi Floyd,

    I would argue that translations are inherently flawed because they are not the original text.

    Take for example the Daniel 9 "seventy weeks", which most commentators assign as 7x70 = 490 years. The literal "weeks" text is NOT the concise Feminine text* (i.e., sheba) which would support the 7x70, but the INCONCISE Masculine text (shibiym) which CANNOT be 7x70. -- This would be analogous to grabbing a hat, coat, and gloves before going for a ride in a "cool" car. Who would make that mistake except an English novice.

    Secondly, most translations contrive the seven and the sixty-two as though the author intended a duration of sixty-nine. However, Newton said this does "violence" to Scripture, -- and the RSV CORRECTLY presents the TRUE conveyance:

    Dan. 9 (RSV)
    25 Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off,

    Thus one should anticipate an anointed one after the seven, and a SECOND anointed one after the sixty-two.


    But where one should be cognizant of these errors, one should equally follow the simple text:

    Dan. 2
    41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom
    45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold ... = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE

    For if we can't grasp the simple, the difficult will be much more elusive.




    * Per Edward Young, in agreement with Keit and Kliefoth, as cited in John Walvoord's "Daniel The Key To Prophetic Revelation".


    With Best Regards,
    DD
     
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