Prophethood

[Amy]

Dear All

To the best of my knowledge God chose pious people in past to be his messangers. Such a Messager is a Prophet by Definition. On serveral occassions God communicated with mankind through these prophets. They were under God's influence since God was using them for communication. They have to be special for God to chose them !My one million dollar question:1. Can a pious prophet, that God chose Himself as a messanger, be influenced by Satan to say something that is NOT from God, under the Holy Covenant? My answer is NO. In case yours is Yes, then I have two more questions for you:2. Can you trust such a prophet then?3. Isn't he a false prophet?Note: Yes, and No answers are highly appreciated before giving your reason and please stick to the exact sequence of question. Welcome to the conversation

 

[ammuslim]

Bismillah: Assalamo Aliklum.
Dear All To the best of my knowledge God chose pious people in past to be his messangers. Such a Messager is a Prophet by Definition. On serveral occassions God communicated with mankind through these prophets. They were under God's influence since God was using them for communication. They have to be special for God to chose them!My one million dollar question:1. Can a pious prophet, that God chose Himself as a messanger, be influenced by Satan to say something that is NOT from God, under the Holy Covenant?
The question is not that easy to be answered by YES or NO, it is “a one million dollar question” as you have rightly said, and so it needs further clarification in order to be properly answered. You have to identify who is that messenger that you are talking about who was influenced by Satan? Do you know of any? Please mention the names and the exact incidents in which they were influenced, controlled by Satan, and said something that was not from God. Clarifying the above mentioned point, would help us insh a Allah to provide a satisfactory answers to your questions.
My answer is NO. In case yours is Yes, then I have two more questions for you:2. Can you trust such a prophet then?3. Isn't he a false prophet?
If you mean by your question, that this messenger was influenced by Satan to say for example, “do not worship God Almighty and worship Satan instead”, or “disobey the commandments of God and follow Satan’s”, then I will definitely don’t pay heed to such messenger, in fact, in this case we should not call him a messenger at all.
Note: Yes, and No answers are highly appreciated before giving your reason and please stick to the exact sequence of question.
As I mentioned earlier, questions that contains false or uncertain statements, cannot be answered by YES or NO, we must first clarify the statements in your question before providing the answer. (i.e. If you ask me “when your mother went to jail, was she guilty or no? YES OR NO )… but she didn’t go to jail in the first place, and yet you still insist that my answer should be Yes or No. I hope you got my point.
Welcome to the conversation
Thanks and I hope we can get the maximum benefits of our discussions. Insh a Allah.Salamammuslim.

 

[Faithful]

Amy My one million dollar question:1. Can a pious prophet, that God chose Himself as a messanger, be influenced by Satan to say something that is NOT from God, under the Holy Covenant? My answer is NO. In case yours is Yes, then I have two more questions for you:2. Can you trust such a prophet then?3. Isn't he a false prophet?Note: Yes, and No answers are highly appreciated before giving your reason and please stick to the exact sequence of question.
Jeremiah 1:5-6 (King James Version)King James Version (KJV)Public Domain 5.Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. 6.Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.Clearly nothing to do with being pious, simply as with Jacob and Esau, chosen before birth like believers before the foundation of the earth. God is not a respector of persons. Jonah shows us that when the word comes to a person they do not lose their choice but that knowing God one would not fear death and would certainly be brought around by him. Look at Balaam whos donkey had to speak to correct him in Numbers 22-25.Peter teaches in 2 Peter 1:19-21 (King James Version)19.We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20.Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21.For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.I think it is fairer to use Gods distinction of a false prophet.Deuteronomy 18:20-22 (King James Version)20.But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 21.And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22.When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.The understanding of prophets has to come from what the word teaches it is.It is not so much about understanding why or how God choses them which is not of their own merit. But that we understand how know the difference between true and false ones.Love Faithfu.xx:)

 

[Amy]

(ammuslim;16326)
Bismillah: Assalamo Aliklum.The question is not that easy to be answered by YES or NO, it is “a one million dollar question” as you have rightly said, and so it needs further clarification in order to be properly answered. You have to identify who is that messenger that you are talking about who was influenced by Satan? Do you know of any? Please mention the names and the exact incidents in which they were influenced, controlled by Satan, and said something that was not from God. Clarifying the above mentioned point, would help us insh a Allah to provide a satisfactory answers to your questions.If you mean by your question, that this messenger was influenced by Satan to say for example, “do not worship God Almighty and worship Satan instead”, or “disobey the commandments of God and follow Satan’s”, then I will definitely don’t pay heed to such messenger, in fact, in this case we should not call him a messenger at all. As I mentioned earlier, questions that contains false or uncertain statements, cannot be answered by YES or NO, we must first clarify the statements in your question before providing the answer. (i.e. If you ask me “when your mother went to jail, was she guilty or no? YES OR NO )… but she didn’t go to jail in the first place, and yet you still insist that my answer should be Yes or No. I hope you got my point. Thanks and I hope we can get the maximum benefits of our discussions. Insh a Allah.Salamammuslim.
I know exactly why it is so difficult for you to give a straight answer. Their is only one prophet in history that was influenced by satan during his prophethood

Stay tuned as I will for sure bring forth the name of the prophet shortly after I have few more opionions in this thread :shepard:

 

[Amy]

(Faithful;16343)
Jeremiah 1:5-6 (King James Version)King James Version (KJV)Public Domain 5.Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. 6.Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.Clearly nothing to do with being pious, simply as with Jacob and Esau, chosen before birth like believers before the foundation of the earth. God is not a respector of persons. Jonah shows us that when the word comes to a person they do not lose their choice but that knowing God one would not fear death and would certainly be brought around by him. Look at Balaam whos donkey had to speak to correct him in Numbers 22-25.Peter teaches in 2 Peter 1:19-21 (King James Version)19.We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20.Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21.For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.I think it is fairer to use Gods distinction of a false prophet.Deuteronomy 18:20-22 (King James Version)20.But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 21.And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22.When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.The understanding of prophets has to come from what the word teaches it is.It is not so much about understanding why or how God choses them which is not of their own merit. But that we understand how know the difference between true and false ones.Love Faithfu.xx:)
I agree that there is no merit to be influenced by the Holy Ghost except sin. To get rid of the sin one needs to repent and sin no more. Thus we have reached the state of piousness. God cares for sinners but he can not live with sin. Please correct me if I am wrong

Having said that my question or focus is, can anyone who is influenced by Holy Ghost to prophecy in His name also be influenced by satan during that phase? Can a prophet during his prophethood, prophecy in God's name and later amend it saying he was under the influence of satan?

 

[Faithful]

Amy I agree that there is no merit to be influenced by the Holy Ghost except sin. To get rid of the sin one needs to repent and sin no more. Thus we have reached the state of piousness. God cares for sinners but he can not live with sin. Please correct me if I am wrong Having said that my question or focus is, can anyone who is influenced by Holy Ghost to prophecy in His name also be influenced by satan during that phase? Can a prophet during his prophethood, prophecy in God's name and later amend it saying he was under the influence of satan?
I am not clear to the meaning of this sentence
I agree that there is no merit to be influenced by the Holy Ghost except sin.
Whilst the flesh=sin and the Spirit are opposed to each other and the fruit of the spirit is self-control I fail to see clearly what you could mean with the above. After Christ was baptised the Spirit led him out into the wilderness where Satan tempted him. Everyone will be fighting the forces of darkness who belongs to Christ, Ephesians 6, it is the truth that conquers for Christ says, " I have given you authority over all the power of the enemy and so nothing will hurt you." The person like our Lords example uses the sword which is the word of God which the Spirit gives.Turn these bread into stones and eat if thou be the Son of God.Jesus was the Son of God and he says, the word says, " Man shall not live by bread alone." To do the will of God is food to him. Jesus clearly speaking that spiritually thw will and work of God should be more than food and rainment to us, it should be more important than our own lives.David sinned whilst he had the Holy Spirit. Psalm 51:9-12.9.Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10.Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11.Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12.Restore unto ]me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. Even today the word warns us not to grieve the Holy Spirit.The strongest and best gift anyone can have is Love, because in love all things work together perfectly.Love Faithful.

 

[Amy]

(Faithful;16350)
I am not clear to the meaning of this sentence Whilst the flesh=sin and the Spirit are opposed to each other and the fruit of the spirit is self-control I fail to see clearly what you could mean with the above. After Christ was baptised the Spirit led him out into the wilderness where Satan tempted him. Everyone will be fighting the forces of darkness who belongs to Christ, Ephesians 6, it is the truth that conquers for Christ says, " I have given you authority over all the power of the enemy and so nothing will hurt you." The person like our Lords example uses the sword which is the word of God which the Spirit gives.Turn these bread into stones and eat if thou be the Son of God.Jesus was the Son of God and he says, the word says, " Man shall not live by bread alone." To do the will of God is food to him. Jesus clearly speaking that spiritually thw will and work of God should be more than food and rainment to us, it should be more important than our own lives.David sinned whilst he had the Holy Spirit. Psalm 51:9-12.9.Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10.Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11.Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12.Restore unto ]me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. Even today the word warns us not to grieve the Holy Spirit.The strongest and best gift anyone can have is Love, because in love all things work together perfectly.Love Faithful.

YES Jesus was tempted but HE did not sin and remained pious. Let me make it simple, in David's case he sinned on a personal level which made him Un-Holy for which he repented and the connection was mended. David, however did not twist words of God. He did not give a prophecy and later claimed it to be from satan and amended it. As for sin every man is a sinner that includes pious also because we are born of sin. The sin of Adam and Eve. But I am not discussing the issue of being pious or not. Probably, you and me are saying the same thing from different angles. We can discuss this issue in a seperate thread

What I wonder is, do you think a prophecy can be made by a prophet in God's name while under the influence of satan and later to be amended?

 

[Ricky W]

A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiimAmy, correct me if i'm wrong, i'm just guesing where you are trying to point at. Is it the matter of 'Satanic Verse' ?If thats a true, I think it is good for you to read this link http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/sverses.html, perhaps that would giving you the answer

.Wallahu a'lam

 

[Amy]

(Ricky W;16362)
A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiimAmy, correct me if i'm wrong, i'm just guesing where you are trying to point at. Is it the matter of 'Satanic Verse' ?If thats a true, I think it is good for you to read this link http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/sverses.html, perhaps that would giving you the answer

.Wallahu a'lam
Ricky, there's a famous saying, ''if you can't convince them, confuse them''

So are muslims denying the very of stanic verses to which muhammed accepted himself were sent to him by satan and then later amended them? How can you reject what muhammed said? Or is it the translation? Then can we say that quran has changed? Because different translators, translate it differently.In addition can you also explain why is it forbidden to say Bismillah (in the name of Allah) before reciting sura najam? Probably the only sura that has this special exception

 

[Amy]

Perhaps first step is to get muslims out of this deny-phase of stanic verses being part of quran, and that too with a reference

http://muhammadanism.org/Quran/SatanicVerses.htm

 

[Ricky W]

A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(Amy)
Perhaps first step is to get muslims out of this deny-phase of stanic verses being part of quran, and that too with a reference

http://muhammadanism.org/Quran/SatanicVerses.htm
Amy, have you read the answer on the link that i gave you regarding on the satanic verse that you are trying to point at ?Best regards,Ricky wWallahu a'lam.

 

[Ricky W]

A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(Amy)
Ricky, there's a famous saying, ''if you can't convince them, confuse them''
What do you mean by this word ? Are you trying to accusing me again ?Oh God, may Your Guidence be upon him

.
So are muslims denying the very of stanic verses to which muhammed accepted himself were sent to him by satan and then later amended them? How can you reject what muhammed said? Or is it the translation? Then can we say that quran has changed? Because different translators, translate it differently.
Have you readed the link that i gave you ?Are this the result of yours from learning Islam for 12 good years :

?The source of which you got the info of 'Satanic Verse' was from the hadith, and if you are reading the link that i gave, most of all the Islamic scholars has agree that what you call with the 'satanic verse' hadith was rejected from Sahih Hadith. And one another think the hadith cannot be considered as a sahih if against what has been foretold in Quran.
In addition can you also explain why is it forbidden to say Bismillah (in the name of Allah) before reciting sura najam? Probably the only sura that has this special exception

I never know that forbidden to say Bismillah before reciting sura An Najm, can you give me where i can get those information ?Best regards,Ricky WWallahu a'lam

 

[ammuslim]

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.(Amy;16345)
I know exactly why it is so difficult for you to give a straight answer. Their is only one prophet in history that was influenced by satan during his prophethood

Stay tuned as I will for sure bring forth the name of the prophet shortly after I have few more opionions in this thread :shepard:
I was actually surprised when I read your reply. Your first post shows that you are trying to ask some honest questions, but it seems that you are not seeking answers at all, you already know the answer.Of course I am aware of Non Muslims’ allegations against Muhammad pbuh, and one of them is that he was influenced by Satan in the message that he brought, and that’s why I asked you to mention the incidents that could back up your claims so that I can deal with it. Anyway, the so called satanic verses were refuted many times by other Muslims but you guys keep on repeating the same questions over and over again and unwillingly, you have refused to listen to our explanation and answers, and so i have nothing new to add to this topic, the internet is full of Islamic websites that refuted this lie. YOU SAID:
YES Jesus was tempted but HE did not sin and remained pious.
If you are talking about the Biblical Jesus, then I would have to respectfully disagree with you. Because first of all, according to the Bible, Satan’s temptation is a result of man’s evil desire, and Jesus was a man.James 1:13-15When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire he is dragged away and enticed.Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full -grown, gives birth to death.So Amy, as you can clearly see, temptation normally take place under one condition only, and that is when you have an evil desire, and so Jesus too plainly as explained in the above verses had evil desires when he was tempted by the devil. Jesus pbuh not only was tempted by Satan, but he was also suffering when he was tempted according to Hebrews 2:17-18 Now you ask yourself a question, during those 40 days when Jesus was tempted, controlled by Satan in suffering, was he able to utter God’s words as revealed to him, or the revelation that he delivered during those days were Satan’s words? Salamammuslim

 

[Jordan]

(ammuslim)
(Amy)
I know exactly why it is so difficult for you to give a straight answer. Their is only one prophet in history that was influenced by satan during his prophethood

Stay tuned as I will for sure bring forth the name of the prophet shortly after I have few more opionions in this thread :shepard:
I was actually surprised when I read your reply. Your first post shows that you are trying to ask some honest questions, but it seems that you are not seeking answers at all, you already know the answer.Of course I am aware of Non Muslims’ allegations against Muhammad pbuh, and one of them is that he was influenced by Satan in the message that he brought, and that’s why I asked you to mention the incidents that could back up your claims so that I can deal with it.Anyway, the so called satanic verses were refuted many times by other Muslims but you guys keep on repeating the same questions over and over again and unwillingly, you have refused to listen to our explanation and answers, and so i have nothing new to add to this topic, the internet is full of Islamic websites that refuted this lie.YOU SAIDAmy)
YES Jesus was tempted but HE did not sin and remained pious.
If you are talking about the Biblical Jesus, then I would have to respectfully disagree with you. Because first of all, according to the Bible, Satan’s temptation is a result of man’s evil desire, and Jesus was a man.James 1:13-15When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire he is dragged away and enticed.Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full -grown, gives birth to death.So Amy, as you can clearly see, temptation normally take place under one condition only, and that is when you have an evil desire, and so Jesus too plainly as explained in the above verses had evil desires when he was tempted by the devil.Jesus pbuh not only was tempted by Satan, but he was also suffering when he was tempted according to Hebrews 2:17-18Now you ask yourself a question, during those 40 days when Jesus was tempted, controlled by Satan in suffering, was he able to utter God’s words as revealed to him, or the revelation that he delivered during those days were Satan’s words?SalamammuslimWhat a way to twist scriptures to your own desire. Lord Jesus was tempted by the Devil (Matthew 4:1-11, Luke 4:1-13) It also say that he has no sin in Him. (I Peter 2:21-22, II Corinthians 5:20-21, Hebrews 4:14-15)And He also said this, Dost thou believe in the Son of God? (John 9:35, John 10:36)And God can not sin. He can not lie.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.

 

[tim bennett]

i never saw the name muhammed in my bible, you?

 

[ammuslim]

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.(thesuperjag;16436)
What a way to twist scriptures to your own desire. Lord Jesus was tempted by the Devil (Matthew 4:1-11, Luke 4:1-13) It also say that he has no sin in Him. (I Peter 2:21-22, II Corinthians 5:20-21, Hebrews 4:14-15)And He also said this, Dost thou believe in the Son of God? (John 9:35, John 10:36)And God can not sin. He can not lie.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
My intention was not to twist anything in your Bible, this is my own understanding, you may swallow it, or just leave it. James 1:13-15 says that any MAN was tempted by Satan, it is due to his own evil desires, now you don’t want to connect those verses to the temptation of Jesus who was a man, this is your own problem, but this is how I understand the plain English of your Bible.Now, the term Son of God as mentioned in the quotation you gave, does not mean God Himself. I don’t know how did you come up with this conclusion. Salamammuslim

 

[Jordan]

(ammuslim)
(thesuperjag)
What a way to twist scriptures to your own desire. Lord Jesus was tempted by the Devil (Matthew 4:1-11, Luke 4:1-13) It also say that he has no sin in Him. (I Peter 2:21-22, II Corinthians 5:20-21, Hebrews 4:14-15)And He also said this, Dost thou believe in the Son of God? (John 9:35, John 10:36)And God can not sin. He can not lie.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
My intention was not to twist anything in your Bible, this is my own understanding, you may swallow it, or just leave it. James 1:13-15 says that any MAN was tempted by Satan, it is due to his own evil desires, now you don’t want to connect those verses to the temptation of Jesus who was a man, this is your own problem, but this is how I understand the plain English of your Bible.Now, the term Son of God as mentioned in the quotation you gave, does not mean God Himself. I don’t know how did you come up with this conclusion.SalamammuslimI John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.John 1:1-3 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.So what the scriptures are saying that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, these three are one. And they are not three Gods but only one God.The personal name of God the Father is YHWH. The personal name of God the Son is Yahshua. Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.God can not lie. (Hebrews 6:18, I Peter 2:22, Romans 3:4)

 

[ammuslim]

Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
I John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Apparently you are using the KJV of the Bible, but if you open the RSV, you wont find that verse.
John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.John 1:1-3 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
well, the above 2 verses are open to a different interpretations, but I don’t intend to argue with you about this matter, you believe that Jesus is God, and that he is one with other personalities of the Trinity, its fine, but I don’t and I’ve got my reasons. Salamammuslim

 

[Amy]

This is funny indeed Ricky. Ofcourse I read you Link and asked you questions regarding the information provided in your link. Answer them first, otherwise consider our discussion done here

For your convenience I am repeating the most important one here:1. So are muslims denying the very of stanic verses to which muhammed accepted himself were sent to him by satan and then later amended them? For your very information, stanic verses are part of Shia belief though Sunnis have rejected them. Which makes me think:1. Dose that mean that a muslim can pick any hadith and reject any?2. If yes, then what is the importance of hadiths left in your religion?

 

[Amy]

(ammuslim;16429)
Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.I was actually surprised when I read your reply. Your first post shows that you are trying to ask some honest questions, but it seems that you are not seeking answers at all, you already know the answer.Of course I am aware of Non Muslims’ allegations against Muhammad pbuh, and one of them is that he was influenced by Satan in the message that he brought, and that’s why I asked you to mention the incidents that could back up your claims so that I can deal with it. Anyway, the so called satanic verses were refuted many times by other Muslims but you guys keep on repeating the same questions over and over again and unwillingly, you have refused to listen to our explanation and answers, and so i have nothing new to add to this topic, the internet is full of Islamic websites that refuted this lie.
Since you knew where I was coming from, how come you think I didn't know where you are coming from

(ammuslim;16429)
YOU SAID: If you are talking about the Biblical Jesus, then I would have to respectfully disagree with you. Because first of all, according to the Bible, Satan’s temptation is a result of man’s evil desire, and Jesus was a man.James 1:13-15When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire he is dragged away and enticed.Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full -grown, gives birth to death.So Amy, as you can clearly see, temptation normally take place under one condition only, and that is when you have an evil desire, and so Jesus too plainly as explained in the above verses had evil desires when he was tempted by the devil. Jesus pbuh not only was tempted by Satan, but he was also suffering when he was tempted according to Hebrews 2:17-18 Now you ask yourself a question, during those 40 days when Jesus was tempted, controlled by Satan in suffering, was he able to utter God’s words as revealed to him, or the revelation that he delivered during those days were Satan’s words? Salamammuslim
This is off topic, if you want to discuss this open a new thread, which would be invain though as you muslims '' have refused to listen to our explanation and answers''