Proselyting Techniques of Mormon Missionaries

[The Learner]

(b) August 20, Orson Pratt, one of the original Twelve Mormon Apostles, is excommunicated for apparent disagreements with Joseph Smith over polygamy and Smith's sexual advances to Sarah Pratt, Orson's wife (Nauvoo: Kingdom on the Mississippi, pp. 269-70).

1843 (a) Orson Pratt reinstated January 20 as member of the Twelve Apostles (Deseret News Church Almanac, 1979, p. 104) (See 1842b and 1875.)

(b) Revelation recorded July 12, 1843, authorizes eternal, plural marriage. As noted in current editions of the Doctrine &Covenants, "it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831." That is, historical records show Joseph Smith was sexually involved with women other than his legal wife Emma, long before this revelation is written, despite published denials. (See 1835c, 1838c, 1844b.) Revelation makes eternal and plural marriage essential to exaltation (see 1852b, 1855b, 1866b). It is also called an "everlasting covenant," leading later Mormon prophets and apostles to frequently claim its practice was protected by God and could never be stopped (see 1856c, 1866c, 1879b). (See also 1829, 1844c, 1876, 1887a, 1890a, b, 1898b, 1906.)

1844 (a) In April, Joseph Smith preaches perhaps his most famous sermon. "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil so that you may see...He was once a man like us; yea that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did...Here, then is eternal life...you have got learn how to be Gods yourselves,...the same as all Gods have done before you" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46). (See 1829, 1842a, 1844c, d.)

(b) May 26, Smith again denies polygamy: "What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 411). (See 1838c cross-dates.)

(c) June 7, first and only copy of the Nauvoo Expositor published. Accuses Smith of practicing polygamy and teaching polytheism. (See 1838c cross-dates.)

(d) June 16, Joseph Smith preaches on the plurality of Gods: "I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 474) (See 1829, 1842a, 1844a.)

 

[The Learner]

(e) June 27, mob attacks jail in Carthage, Illinois, where Joseph Smith and others are being held on charges of treason. Overwhelmed in an obviously unfairly matched gunfight, Joseph Smith nevertheless kills two men and wounds a third with a small pistol previously smuggled into the prison. Both Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum are killed (History of the Church, Vol. 7, p. 103). The mob's action is inexcusable. But fighting for his life with an illegally obtained weapon, Joseph cannot legitimately be called a martyr in the sense with which that word has been applied down through the centuries to Christian martyrs who were willing to suffer death for their faith.

(f) Several splinter groups break off from main group in Nauvoo during the next few years (see Shields, Divergent Paths of the Restoration).

1845 Brigham Young, who will become the second Mormon prophet, seems to teach against Blood Atonement. "When men have come into our midst who were as corrupt as the devil himself, many have supposed it would have been better to have cut their throats with a feather and exposed their sins of corruption, and let them go to hell where they belonged, than to have borne with them as Brother Joseph Smith did; but this course would meet with a conflicting argument" (History of the Church, Vol. 7, p. 366). (See 1856a, 1977a.)

1846 (a) Nauvoo Temple dedicated.

(b) The Oath of Vengeance is implemented into the Temple ceremony. This is an oath against the killers of Joseph Smith (Diary Journal of Abraham H. Cannon; as quoted in Tanner, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality?, p. 475). (See 1926.)

(c) Brigham Young guides the majority of the people left in Nauvoo in move to Utah (Nauvoo: Kingdom on the Mississippi, p. 306).

1847 (a) Mormons reach the Salt Lake Valley.

(b) Brigham Young officially becomes the second Prophet of the Mormon church (Deseret News Almanac, 1079, p. 92).

1851 The first edition of the Pearl of Great Price, including the "Book of Moses" and the "Book of Abraham," is printed (see 1835d cross-dates). Moses 7:8 and Abraham 1:21-27 become "scriptural basis" for denying priesthood to Blacks of African descent (see 1854b cross-dates).

 

[The Learner]

1852 (a) Young teaches Adam-God doctrine. "When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken - He is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do" (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, p. 50). (See 1854a, 1856b, 1873, 1903, 1912a, 1976, 1981a.)

(b) Polygamy is openly taught in specially convened conference in Salt Lake City. Revelation dated July 12, 1843, which teaches, even commands, plural marriage to be practiced, is publicly read, then expounded on by Apostle Orson Pratt and President Brigham Young (Smith, Essentials in Church History, p. 394). The revelation is incorporated twenty-four years later (see 1876) into the Doctrine &Covenants. (See 1838c cross-dates.)

1853 Mormon apostle and later counselor to Brigham Young in Church's First Presidency Jedediah M. Grant quotes with approval pagan philosopher Celsus, "The grand reason why the gentiles and philosophers of his school persecuted Jesus Christ, was because he had so many wives; there were Elizabeth, and Mary, and a host of others that followed him." He goes on to say, "The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing crucifixion, was evidently based upon polygamy, according to the testimony of the philosophers who rose in that age. A belief in the plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were 'Mormons'" (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, p. 345-46; see 1854c, 1963a). (See also 1838c cross-dates.)

1854 (a) Orson Pratt vehemently disagrees with Brigham Young concerning the Adam God doctrine. "But behold ye, there were some that did not believe the sayings of the Prophet Brigham. Even our beloved brother Orson Pratt told me that he did not believe it. He said he could prove by the scriptures that it was not correct. I felt sorry to hear Professor Orson Pratt say that" (Diary of Joseph Lee Robinson, pp. 102-03 as quoted in Joseph Musser, Michael Our Father and Our God, p. 23 ftnt.). (See 1852a cross-dates.)

 

[The Learner]

(b) Brigham Young speaks on those with a Black skin, the descendants of Cain, and the priesthood. "When all the other children of Adam have had the privilege of receiving the Priesthood...and have received their resurrection from the dead, then it will be time enough to remove the curse from Cain and his posterity" (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 143). (See 1851, 1866a, 1945c, 1954b, 1958, 1978b, c, 1979a, b.)

(c) Orson Hyde, one of the LDS Twelve Apostles, explains the marriage at Cana found in the biblical account of John 2: "Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana.... Now there was actually a marriage; and if Jesus was not the bridegroom on that occasion, please tell who was.... We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into the relation whereby he could see his seed, before he was crucified....efore the Savior died, he looked upon his own natural children, as we look upon ours;..." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 82; see 1853, 1963a). (See also 1838c cross-dates.)

1855 (a) New First Vision information given by Brigham Young. "The Lord did not come with the armies of heaven.... But he did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun.,...and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong" (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 171). (See 1820 cross-dates.)

(b) Brigham Young preaches a sermon on polygamy in which he explains, "Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned; and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given, and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned" (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 266). (See 1838c cross-dates.)

1856 (a) Brigham Young teaches doctrine of Blood Atonement. "There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would atone for their sins,.... It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet man can commit sins which it can never remit" (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 53-54). (See 1845, 1977a.)

(b) Orson Pratt's disagreement with Brigham Young on Adam-God continues. "A very serious conversation took place between President B. Young and Orson Pratt upon doctrine. O.P. was directly opposed to the President's view and very freely expressed his entire disbelief in them after being told by the President that things were so and so in the name of the Lord. He was firm in the position that the President's word in the name of the Lord, was not the word of the Lord to him" (History of Samuel W. Richards, p. 15; as quoted in Musser, Michael Our Father and Our God, p. 23 ftnt.). (See 1852a cross dates.)

(c) October 12, in a Sunday afternoon address in the Bowery on Temple Square, Mormon Apostle Heber C. Kimball declares, "You might as well deny 'Mormonism,' and turn away from it, as to oppose the plurality of wives. Let the Presidency of this Church, and the Twelve Apostles, and all the authorities unite and say with one voice that they will oppose that doctrine, and the whole of them would be damned" (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 5, p. 203; see 1843b, 1866c, 1879b). (See also 1838c cross-dates.)

 

[The Learner]

1857 (a) Heber C. Kimball, First Counselor to Brigham Young in the First Presidency exclaims, "Wake Up, Ye Elders of Israel, and live to God and none else; and learn to do as you are told, both old and young: learn to do as you are told for the future. And when you are taking a position, if you do not know that you are right, do not take it - I mean independently. But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong" (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 32). (See 1945b.)

(b) Mountain Meadows Massacre. Of the more than 100 people in the Fancher party passing through Utah, only a few of the children are not slaughtered. (See 1877a.)

1860 Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints officially organized in Amboy, Iowa. This is the largest of the many groups into which Joseph Smith's church has splinterd. Joseph Smith III is called as their Prophet (Shields, Divergent Paths of the Restoration, p. 65).

1866 (a) Brigham Young reiterates his stance on the Blacks gaining the Priesthood. "And when all the rest of the children have received their blessing in the Holy Priesthood, then that curse shall be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to" (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 272). (See 1854b cross-dates.)

(b) Brigham Young states, "The only men who become Gods, even the sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy" (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 269; see 1852b, 1855b). (See also 1838c cross-dates.)

(c) Heber C. Kimball exclaims, "It would be as easy for the United States to build a tower to remove the sun, as to remove polygamy, or the church and kingdom of God" (Millenial Star, Vol. 28, p. 190; see 1843b, 1856c, 1879b). (See also 1838c cross-dates.)

1867 Brigham Young publicly ridicules Orson Pratt's concept of God. "They appear to be bound in their capacity for acquiring knowledge, as Brother Orson Pratt, has in theory, bound the capacity of God. According to his theory, God can progress no further in knowledge and power; but the God that I serve is progressing eternally, and so are his children" (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 286).

1870 Brigham Young explains one of the purposes of the sun. "So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain" (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 271).

1871 Orson Pratt, in General Conference, discusses Joseph Smith's Independence Temple revelation. "Here then we see a prediction, and we believe it. Yes! The Latter-day Saints have as firm faith and rely upon this promise as much as they rely upon the promise of forgiveness of sins...a temple will be reared on the spot that has been selected, and the corner-stone of which has been laid, in the generation when this revelation was given; we just as much expect this as we expect the sun to rise in the morning...But says the objector, 'thirty nine years have passed away.' What of that? The generation has not passed away; all the people that were living thirty-nine years ago have not passed away; but before they do pass away this will be fulfilled" (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p. 275). (See 1832b, 1996b.)

1873 Despite opposition, Brigham Young continues to teach the Adam-God doctrine. "How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me - namely that Adam is our Father and God -.... He was the first man on the earth and its framer and maker....he said, 'I want my children who are in the spirit world to come and live here. I once dwelt upon an earth something like this, in a mortal state. I was faithful, I received my crown and exaltation....I want my children that were born to me in the spirit world to come here and take tabernacles of flesh...'" (Deseret News, June 14, 1873; see Mormonism: Shadow or Reality, p. 175, for photo-mechanical reproduction). (See 1852a cross-dates.)

 

[The Learner]

1875 Orson Pratt's seniority as one of the Twelve Apostles is stripped from him by Brigham Young. Pratt would have been third prophet had he retained his status (Deseret News Church Almanac, 1979, p. 104). (See 1842b, 1843a.)

1876 First edition of Doctrine & Covenants without revelation prescribing monogamous marriage is published. Section 132 (current editions) which authorizes polygamy is added (Temple Lot Case, p. 309). (See 1838c cross-dates.)

1877 (a) March 23, John D. Lee is executed for his part in the Mountain Meadows Massacre (Confessions of John D. Lee, p. 383) (See 1857b.)

(b) St. George, Utah, temple dedicated.

(c) Brigham Young dies.

1879 (a) New First Vision information given by John Taylor, who will become the third prophet. "None of them was right, just as it was when the Prophet Joseph asked the angel which of the sects was right that he might join it. The answer was that none of them are right....the angel merely told him to join none of them that none of them were right" (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 20, p. 167; emphasis added). (See 1820 cross-dates.)

(b) Mormon Apostle George Q. Cannon declares, "If plural marriage be divine, as the Latter-day Saints say it is, no power on earth can suppress it, unless you crush and destroy the entire people." At the October General Conference Apostle Franklin D. Richards declares, "...the government has determined that polygamy shall be abolished, but the government of heaven had previously determined that polygamy should be established..." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 20, pp. 276, 314; see 1843b, 1856c, 1866c). (See also 1838c cross-dates.)

1880 John Taylor becomes third Mormon prophet.

1884 Logan, Utah, temple is dedicated.


1887 (a) The Edmunds-Tucker Act is passed in Congress. This legislation "sought to facilitate conviction of polygamists by permitting exceptions to standard judicial and law enforcement procedures" (B.Y.U. Studies, Vol. 26, No. 4, p. 117; see 1890a). (See also 1838c cross-dates.)

(b) Mormon prophet John Taylor dies.

1888 Manti, Utah, temple is dedicated.

1889 Wilford Woodruff becomes fourth Mormon prophet.

1890 (a) "The final blow for Mormon polygamy was the Supreme Court's decision in The Late Corporation of the Church of Jesus Christ vs. United States which upheld the seizure of Church holdings by the federal government" (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Vol. 21, No. 1, p. 120; see 1887, 1890b). (See also 1838c cross-dates.)

(b) Wilford Woodruff issues the Manifesto in which it is stated, "We are not teaching polygamy or plural marriage, nor permitting any person to enter into its practice ... Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages ... I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws ... And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land" (Doctrine &Covenants, "Official Declaration-1", 1981 ed., p. 291-92). Following Joseph Smith's earlier example (see 1835c, 1838c, 1844b), Church leaders continued to practice polygamy for many years after the manifesto, while lying about the subject to the government, the public and even church members (see 1898b, 1906). (See also 1838c cross-dates.)

1893 Salt Lake City, Utah, temple dedicated.

1895 December 9, "At a special conference held at Colonia Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico, the settlement of the Saints in Mexico were organized as the Juarez Stake of Zion by Apostles Francis M. Lyman and George Teasdale; Anthony W. Ivins, president; Henry Eyring and Helaman Pratt, counselors" (Jenson, Andrew, Church Chronology, 1899 ed., p. 210). This community is known for its polygamist activity.

1898 (a) Wilford Woodruff dies. Lorenzo Snow becomes fifth Mormon prophet.

(b) October 17, "The Presbyterian synod of Utah, at its closing session in Ogden, passed resolutions declaring that polygamy was still practiced by the 'Mormons' in Utah" (Jenson, Church Chronology; see 1890b, 1906). (See also 1838c cross-dates.)

1901 Lorenzo Snow dies. Joseph F. Smith becomes sixth Mormon prophet.

1903 Mormon historian and member of the First Council of the Seventy, B.H. Roberts declares, "Some of the sectarian ministers are saying that we 'Mormons' are ashamed of the doctrine announced by President Brigham Young to the effect that Adam will thus be the God of this world. No, friends, it is not that we are ashamed of that doctrine" (The Mormon Doctrine of Deity, 1903 ed., p. 42). (See 1852a cross-dates.)

1906 The Congressional Committee on Privileges and Elections issues report on testimony taken in the Reed Smoot Case, stating, "A sufficient number of specific instances of the taking of plural wives since the Manifesto of 1890, so called, have been shown by the testimony as having taken place among Officials of the Mormon Church to demonstrate the fact that the leaders in this church, the first presidency and the twelve apostles, connive at the practice of taking plural wives, and have done so ever since the Manifesto was issued..." (Reed Smoot Case, Vol. 4, p. 476). There followed a long list of cases, including apostles of the church, of plural marriages contracted after the Manifesto. (See 1838c cross-dates, esp. 1890b, 1898b.)

1912 (a) In a letter to Central States Mission President Samuel O. Benion, dated February 20, 1912, the First Presidency officially renounces Brigham Young's Adam-God doctrine. Restricting their response to only one of the many places where Young taught the doctrine, they attempt to explain the whole thing away as a misunderstanding or misinterpretation (Messages of the First Presidency, Vol. 4, pp. 266-67). (See 1852a cross-dates.)

(b) Headlines on the December 29 New York Times concerning Joseph Smith's "Book of Abraham" (found in the Mormon scripture The Pearl of Great Price) reads, "Sacred Books Claimed to Have Been Given Divinely to the First Prophet Are Shown to be Taken from Old Egyptian Originals, Their Translation Being a Work of Imagination." (See 1835d cross-dates.)

1916 The Father and the Son: A Doctrinal Exposition by the First Presidency and the Twelve, standardizes Mormon usage of terms Elohim and Jehovah, applying them to God the Father and God the Son, respectively. Previously, Jehovah had been used to refer to God the Father by Brigham Young, John Taylor and others. Bulk of the exposition given to explaining why the Son can be called the Father.

 

[The Learner]

The last group of posts are a LDS timeline

 

[The Learner]

@The Learner, I ask you a VERY specific question:



You totally ignored it, addresses a completely different area, and spammed many posts of links.

This is literally a straw man: rather than addressing what I say, you go off an argue against some other point. You aren't talking to me, your "friend", you're spamming at some imaginary doll you named "Jane". That's not how actual conversations work.

I've spoken repeatedly about how Jesus Christ is divine Son of God.

ME: If you mean he is the spirit offspring of a "father god" We disagree, because that is as far from the truth one can get.

He is God.

Me: If you mean fully G_d and fully Man in the historical Christian understanding, we agree. If you mean the way LDS understand this we completely disagree.

He has a have a spirit (a divine one) which dwells in a physical body
Colossians 2:9
Darby Translation
9 For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily;

Me if you mean all three members of the Trinity are inside him, we agree.

(was mortal and flawed,
Jesus is Fully Man and Fully God, he was in a physical body. The Bible does not apply the word mortal to his body. BibleGateway - Keyword Search: mortal

flawed
/flôd,fläd/
adjective
blemished, damaged, or imperfect in some way.
"flawed crystals"
Similar:
unsound
defective
faulty
distorted
inaccurate
incorrect
erroneous
imprecise
fallacious
wrong
impaired
weak
invalid
Opposite:
sound
(of a person) having a weakness in character.
"a flawed hero"

Me the Bible does not apply the word flawed to Jesus. In fact, The Bible says he is without blemish.

1. Ephesians 5:27
   That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. 1 Peter 1:19
   But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

now ressucected and glorified).

Me I already covered this with I cor 15.

Bottomline, I do not think we believe in the same Jesus. I know the Jesus of the Bible.

 

[The Learner]

1. Matthew 24:24
   For there shall arise false Christs, and falseprophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Mark 13:22
   For false Christs and falseprophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. 2 Corinthians 11:13
   For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

4. 2 Corinthians 11:3-5
   
   King James Version
   
   ​

   3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
   4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
   5 For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I've spoken repeatedly about how Jesus Christ is divine Son of God.

ME: If you mean he is the spirit offspring of a "father god" We disagree, because that is as far from the truth one can get.

He is God.

Me: If you mean fully G_d and fully Man in the historical Christian understanding, we agree. If you mean the way LDS understand this we completely disagree.

He has a have a spirit (a divine one) which dwells in a physical body
Colossians 2:9
Darby Translation
9 For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily;

Me if you mean all three members of the Trinity are inside him, we agree.

(was mortal and flawed,
Jesus is Fully Man and Fully God, he was in a physical body. The Bible does not apply the word mortal to his body. BibleGateway - Keyword Search: mortal

flawed
/flôd,fläd/
adjective
blemished, damaged, or imperfect in some way.
"flawed crystals"
Similar:
unsound
defective
faulty
distorted
inaccurate
incorrect
erroneous
imprecise
fallacious
wrong
impaired
weak
invalid
Opposite:
sound
(of a person) having a weakness in character.
"a flawed hero"

Me the Bible does not apply the word flawed to Jesus. In fact, The Bible says he is without blemish.

1. Ephesians 5:27
   That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. 1 Peter 1:19
   But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

now ressucected and glorified).

Me I already covered this with I cor 15.

Bottomline, I do not think we believe in the same Jesus. I know the Jesus of the Bible.

If you want to say that, the please point out disagreements on what I actually say. Not the continuous straw mans-- literally the only thing you are doing with continual straw man (like the one quoted here) is convincing me you don't love Truth, Christ, and your heart is far from Him. I reckon that's not your intention.

 

[The Learner]

Amazon.com

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V27N01_103.pdf

The New Mormon History — Signature Books

The New Mormon History: Revisionist Essays on the Past edited by D. Michael Quinn The New Mormon History is the banner under which many professional historians today approach Latter-day Saint historiography. Scholars who embrace this term attempt to put significant events into context rather than

www.signaturebooks.com

The Importance of History – Mormonism Research Ministry

www.mrm.org

https://www.abaa.org/book/834812540

Ep 55 - Joseph’s Historical Revisionism

Skepticize Everything

scripts.nakedmormonismpodcast.com

When History Fails: Mormon Origins and Historical Revisionism | International Network for Theory of History

www.inth.ugent.be

 

[Jane_Doe22]

@The Learner, is there some reason you refuse to talk to ME about what I ACTUALLY believe?

 

[The Learner]

If you want to say that, the please point out disagreements on what I actually say. Not the continuous straw mans-- literally the only thing you are doing with continual straw man (like the one quoted here) is convincing me you don't love Truth, Christ, and your heart is far from Him. I reckon that's not your intention.

Not strawmen lol I gave my answers.

In fact, Jesus was witout sin.

Luke 1:35

The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

Source: 10 Bible verses about Jesus Christ, Sinlessness

1 John 3:5
Verse Concepts
You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.

Source: 10 Bible verses about Jesus Christ, Sinlessness

 

[The Learner]

Hebrews 4:15 ESV / 24 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful​

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

 

[The Learner]

Jesus was sinless, and it is because Jesus was sinless that we have hope of an eternity in heaven. If Jesus were not sinless, there would be no sacrifice for sin. Adam and Eve’s disobedience to God in the Garden of Eden ushered sin into this world (Genesis 3:6). With their sin came death, just as God had warned (Genesis 2:17). As a result, mankind is now born with a sin nature (Romans 5:12–19), and it is with us from the time we are conceived (Psalm 51:5). The Bible makes it clear, however, that Jesus Christ, though tempted in every way just as we are (Hebrews 4:15), never committed a sin (2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 John 3:5). The apostle Peter stated it clearly: “He committed no sin and no deceit was found in His mouth” (1 Peter 2:22). Indeed, as Jesus Christ is God, He has no capacity to sin.

In addition to putting a barrier between us and our Creator, our inherited sinful nature subjected all of us to physical and eternal death because “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). Now, to be reconciled with God there needed to be forgiveness, and “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness” (Hebrews 9:22). After Adam and Eve sinned, God clothed them with “garments of skin” (Genesis 3:21) by shedding the blood of an animal. However, the many subsequent animal sacrifices, although perfectly illustrating that sin requires death, provided only a temporary covering of sins, as the blood of those animals could never completely take away sin (Hebrews 10:4, 11).

The Old Testament sacrifices were a foreshadowing of the perfect, “once for all” sacrifice of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 7:27; 10:10). The only way we could be reconciled to a holy and perfect God was with a holy and perfect offering, which we would not have had if Jesus Christ was not without sin. As Peter declared, “For you know that it is not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed . . . but with the precious blood of Jesus Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect” (1 Peter 1:18–19). Indeed, it was the sinless blood of Christ alone that was able to bring peace between God and mankind (Colossians 1:20). And with this reconciliation, we can be “holy in [God’s] sight, without blemish and free from accusation” (Colossians 1:22).

The sinless Christ’s death on the cross at Calvary paid the full penalty for the sin of all who believe in Him. Thus, what was lost at the fall was given back at the cross. Just as sin entered the world through one man (Adam), God was able to redeem the world through one man—the sinless Jesus Christ.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Here's what I believe about Christ. If you want to disagree with any part, then highlight it and we can talk about it. I will not read or respond to any links you post, or things not directly referencing what I wrote here.

Jesus Christ is the everlasting Son of God. Divine. He is God. He's always been, always will be. He created the Earth, was born of the Virgin Mary, lived 33 perfect years-- no blemish of sin. Perfectly living His Father's will. As a sacrifice for MY sins (+ everyone else's) He was tortured and died on a cross. He rose again on the third day, so that I too can live again. Live both physically, and spiritually as He is the way in which my wretched filthy self can be cleaned to pure white and stand with God, celebrating. He is my Lord, Savior, and King. My hope, salvation, in whom I put total faith into.

 

[The Learner]

Here's what I believe about Christ. If you want to disagree with any part, then highlight it and we can talk about it. I will not read or respond to any links you post, or things not directly referencing what I wrote here.

Jesus Christ is the everlasting Son of God. Divine. He is God. He's always been, always will be. He created the Earth, was born of the Virgin Mary, lived 33 perfect years-- no blemish of sin. Perfectly living His Father's will. As a sacrifice for MY sins (+ everyone else's) He was tortured and died on a cross. He rose again on the third day, so that I too can live again. Live both physically, and spiritually as He is the way in which my wretched filthy self can be cleaned to pure white and stand with God, celebrating. He is my Lord, Savior, and King. My hope, salvation, in whom I put total faith into.

If you were not LDS, I would agree. I do not know how much their corrupt theology you believe.

Doublespeak is language that deliberately obscures, disguises, distorts, or reverses the meaning of words.

doublespeak
noun
dou·ble·speak ˈdə-bəl-ˌspēk
: language used to deceive usually through concealment or misrepresentation of truth

 

[Jane_Doe22]

If you were not LDS, I would agree. I do not know how much their corrupt theology you believe.

Doublespeak is language that deliberately obscures, disguises, distorts, or reverses the meaning of words.

doublespeak
noun
dou·ble·speak ˈdə-bəl-ˌspēk
: language used to deceive usually through concealment or misrepresentation of truth

If you have any questions about what I believe about Christ, then ask. I answer directly. To dismiss me "well you're LDS so you can't really love Christ" is simple blind bigotry. We are not saved/unsaved by the label on the pews.

Note: what I ACTUALLY believe and the straw man you've been spamming are two entirely different things. It's not apples and oranges, it's apples and clouds.

 

[The Learner]

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/xa39pm The Problem of Mormon Double Talk
Post date:
March 19, 2012
It is not uncommon for people who are seriously investigating the LDS Church or those who are newly baptized members to be confused by conflicting statements made by the LDS Church leaders.

On the one hand Mormons claim to have much in common with evangelical, biblical Christianity. This is especially evident when LDS missionaries are talking to potential converts who come from a strong Christian background, or when LDS Church leaders are speaking in a public forum or giving an interview. This theme (of being just as Christian as any other denomination) has been emphasized to the point that the great majority of Mormons are extremely offended if it is even suggested they are not “Christians” in every sense of the word. They will mention the name of their church, the emphasis they put on Christ, their recognition of the Bible as one of their scriptures, and their strong moral and spiritual commitment as evidence of this point. They also use common theological terms like atonement, redemption, grace, baptism, salvation, eternal life, God, Christ, and Holy Spirit as examples of how “Christian” they are. This appeal has been emphasized to the point that many people, including many Latter-day Saints, fail to understand the historical and doctrinal distinctiveness of Mormonism. This emphasis on commonality can be heard in the question “But Mormons believe almost exactly the same things your church teaches, why can’t you accept us as brothers and sisters?”

On the other hand members of the LDS Church are taught within their own circles that they are part of the only one true church. The LDS Church also teaches that all other churches are part of the great and total apostasy, and that only LDS Church leaders have the priesthood power necessary to perform the ordinances necessary for eternal life. So, for Mormons within the LDS Church system, church ordinances such as baptism, communion, and the laying on of hands to receive the Holy Ghost, when they occur in any place other than the LDS Church, are lacking in spiritual value and can only be rightly done by members of the LDS Church. Therefore, the teaching of the LDS Church leaders has been that there is no salvation outside of the LDS Church. The following is an example of the rhetoric found internal to the Mormon system. It comes from the now deceased Mormon apostle Bruce R. McConkie, who in his doctrinal work on the life of Christ titled The Millennial Messiah writes:

“What is the church of the devil in our day, and where is the seat of her power?... The church of the devil is every evil and worldly organization on earth. It is all of the systems, both Christian and non-Christian, that have perverted the pure and perfect gospel; it is all of the governments and powers that run counter to the divine will; it is the societies and political parties and labor unions that sow strife and reap contention. It is communism; It is Islam; it is Buddhism; it is modern Christianity in all its parts. It is Germany under Hitler, Russia under Stalin, and Italy under Mussolini” (Bruce R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1982, 6th printing 1986], pp. 54-55).

So, a religious organization that simultaneously assumes postures of both inclusivity and exclusivity is bound to send confusing and mixed messages to both its members and those investigating it. I’ve found that many Mormon people, albeit unconsciously or unwittingly, tend to adopt whatever posture is most convenient at the time, and best serves the purpose of the moment.

Many people who are investigating the LDS Church wonder what happens after being baptized into the LDS church. After baptism there is no graceful way back out of theLDSChurch. Once you become a member, should you leave, you do so with the label of apostate—one who has known the truth and turned your back on it. The fact that you may want to continue your spiritual growth and pursue a relationship with Jesus Christ in another church is largely irrelevant. Before joining, if you are a member of a non-LDS church you are likely to be called a “brother” or a “sister” by LDS people. However, if you join the Mormon church through baptism and then decide on down the road that the many non-Christian doctrines of Mormonism are not for you, and subsequently leave, do not expect the “brother” and “sister” titles to remain in use.

After you join you will be expected to affirm the LDS Church is true, the Book of Mormon is true, and that Joseph Smith is a true prophet, and to develop a growing allegiance to the LDS Church and the men who lead it. You will begin to see that what is of utmost importance is that you remain faithful to the church, and that as long as you are happy and supportive of the organization you are free to hold a fairly wide range of beliefs. However, if you begin to doubt the organization is all that it claims to be, and if you talk with others about those doubts, you will tend to be viewed with suspicion regardless of how strongly you hold to other spiritual beliefs. Should you voice doubts you will likely be reminded that “the Lord will never allow the [Mormon] prophet to lead his church astray,” meaning what the church leadership teaches, all are to follow unquestioningly.

It is unlikely you will find much emphasis on developing a close, personal intimate relationship with Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord. Nor is it likely you will be encouraged to develop an awareness of areas of internal sin in your life or be encouraged to expose your struggle with sin to others – things like jealousy, pride, manipulation, lust or malice. So, even though these things keep us from achieving a deep relationship with God and other people, the focus will tend to be more on all the external things (tithing, daily prayers, church attendance, charitable deeds) you need to do to be worthy of eternal life and work your way to exaltation in the celestial kingdom, which is synonymous with godhood.

If there is any one point that sets Mormonism apart as non-Christian it is its unbiblical doctrine of God. The God of the LDS Church, according to Joseph Smith and all subsequent LDS Church leaders, was once a man just like us. He continues to have a body of flesh and bones. Jesus Christ is the literal firstborn son to God the Father (Elohim) and a goddess wife, as were we all. God the Father and Jesus Christ both worked their way to godhood in the same way the LDS Church expects its members to do so. On the other hand, the God of the Bible has always existed as God, and has never been a man with a wife or a physical body. You can find other important points of distinction in our “Mormon Belief” article.

Feel free to contact us with any further questions. Mormons are sincere, dedicated, kind people, but the belief system and historical foundations of this organization show it to be unbiblical and therefore not true at its very core.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Laughing emojis are mocking.

No Christian has need of such behavior. Cut it out.