Protestant Apostasy Pending?

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Taken

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Of course you are correct. It cannot be Trump alone, just as it wasn't Constantine alone. What I am hoping to reveal are the dangers inherent in any religion having too much say in politics. Paganism has as one of its characteristics a union of the priesthood with the state power which then implements the laws upholding the religion. This we saw in a marked way throughout the dark ages with Roman Catholicism, and then with Protestantism also with the Church of England as well in Germany with the Lutheran church, although in somewhat of a different fashion.
But one thing I love about the founding fathers of your nation is there determination to break free from having a government ruled by royalty, and a religion ruled by the papacy. They and their forbears had just endured centuries of papal tyranny and did not want it repeated. But even then, it took a rebel by the name of Roger Williams to finally establish religious freedom...the type envisioned by such as Madison and Thomas Jefferson.

The danger I see in the religious right having so much influence in American politics today is that through their influence legislation shall be introduced to enforce Christian principles.

THAT is what our Nation was FOUNDED on, and it is a worry that Gods precepts may be a basis for legislation?

That my friend is a disaster waiting to happen.

Totally disagree. No, I do not believe, invoking Gods principles, precepts into legislation is a problem.

Just look at these forums. Are we all in unison when it comes to Christian doctrine?

No.
Basic, believe in God, believe Jesus is the Son of God, died, rose, was sent by God? Yes.

Believe Jesus' Doctrine, Trust all Scripture true? No

What would happen to the minority of the majority manage to implement a certain Christian doctrine that favours the majority? Imagine if 20% of the people on this board suddenly found themselves to be criminals. When one looks at the mark of the soon coming beast, that is the scenario that an American government will soon find itself enmeshed in. And by 'Christian' legislators. Was not the republic designed to protect minorities?

Spiritually God provides a Way for all men to become Equally Acceptable to Him.

American Governments provide all men to have Equality under the Law.

Nothing provides that ALL men shall be EQUAL in position, their station in life, their wealth, their possessions, their knowledge, their wisdom, etc.

Republic Governments are designed that:
1) with very few qualifications, one can become a Government Servant.
2) that with very few qualifications, everyone can participate in deciding who shall become a Government Servant.

Protect the minorities?
Actually it is to Serve all people, majorities and minorities equally under the law.
And PROTECT the Nation (Jurisdictionally) from invasion.

A Democracy, favors Majority Rule, without consideration of the minorities.

Funny how the minorities, often on the low end scale of wealth, overwhelmingly favor, Majority Rule.

God Bless,
Taken
 

aspen

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Is it a Cross that irks you or Free that irks you or Masonry (builders) that irks you?

Because neither a Remembrance of Christ or Free or Mansonry bothers me, and seems to have suited such a young and highly prosperous Nation as the US.

Perhaps some of the ancient Nations, even mentioned in Scripture, should have considered the Cross, Free, Building....instead of thousands of years later generationally walking about starving to death.

God Bless,
Taken

I am not irked. I am disagreeing with you that the US was built on Christian principles
 
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Taken

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I am not irked. I am disagreeing with you that the US was built on Christian principles

And based on what information do you conclude your position?

God Bless,
Taken
 

aspen

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And based on what information do you conclude your position?

God Bless,
Taken

I gave you my reasoning - the founding fathers built the US on freemasonry principles, which is evident in the architecture, enlightenment ideas within the constitution, and freedom of religion.
 
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Taken

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I gave you my reasoning - the founding fathers built the US on freemasonry principles, which is evident in the architecture, enlightenment ideas within the constitution, and freedom of religion.

That is a generalization.
I base my understanding on actually reading Scripture and actually reading enacted laws of American Statesmen.

Also the 68 references to God in the US Code.

The signing of Our US Constitution in the year of our Lord.

The Ten Commandments in numerous US Federal Buildings.

Engravings of Moses, in the USSC, the House of Representatives.

In God we trust on our money.

Personal letters of the Founders themselves.

God mentioned in our National Anthem.

Presidents swearing their oath of Service to the US, with their hand resting on a Bible.

Prayers opening Sessions of the USSC.

All 50 States mention God or a higher power in their Constitutions, preambles and or laws.

Numberous Christian symbols on and in US Federal Buildings and Monuments. A Bible encapusalated in a wall of a Federal building.

As a US citizen, you appear to not be to keen on the foundational history of the US.

However it's not too late to learn the truth.

God Bless,
Taken
 
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brakelite

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That is a generalization.
I base my understanding on actually reading Scripture and actually reading enacted laws of American Statesmen.

Also the 68 references to God in the US Code.

The signing of Our US Constitution in the year of our Lord.

The Ten Commandments in numerous US Federal Buildings.

Engravings of Moses, in the USSC, the House of Representatives.

In God we trust on our money.

Personal letters of the Founders themselves.

God mentioned in our National Anthem.

Presidents swearing their oath of Service to the US, with their hand resting on a Bible.

Prayers opening Sessions of the USSC.

All 50 States mention God or a higher power in their Constitutions, preambles and or laws.

Numberous Christian symbols on and in US Federal Buildings and Monuments. A Bible encapusalated in a wall of a Federal building.

As a US citizen, you appear to not be to keen on the foundational history of the US.

However it's not too late to learn the truth.

God Bless,
Taken
While these and other circumstantial evidence may be produced as evidence that in the main, despite the religious affiliations , whether to secret societies, or to institutional Christianity, the principles as espoused in the founding documents cannot be denied as brilliant and revolutionary in their concepts. I believe that God had His hand in this, providing a way of escape and freedom from the persecutions, both religious and civil, so recently enshrouding the nations of Europe, thus giving His people an opportunity to prosper and settle unopposed in a land free of despotism.
However, deep in the dark tunnels and recesses of power are clues that not everything was hunky dory. Satan is never far behind when it comes to where God is operating. Connecting the dots is not a difficult task when Satan's pride demands that he leaves behind him evidence of and clues to his accomplishments. Thus as Aspen said, the design and architecture of Washington is a brazen declaration of power...albeit temporary and transitory and somewhat overstated.
The choice of politicians today is much the same as it was 225 years ago. As Abraham Lincoln said (I am writing from memory) ...familiarise yourself again with the chains of bondage and you give the next man to take power the prerogative to chain you....or words to that effect. Sorry, probably a bad paraphrase, Abe said it much better than me.
 
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brakelite

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American Governments provide all men to have Equality under the Law.
Did you not a few posts back rightly denigrate the supreme court? Would that not be because they are accepting legislation that does not provide for all men equally under the law?
Back to religious legislation. I am sure you are familiar with the history of Europe, how that through various submissive kings and queens the Papal Antichrist managed to have enacted religious legislation which completely destroyed any and all vestige of religious liberty from the continent. Your government was established to protect the freedoms of the people, not impose upon them restrictions or prescriptions for Christian living. Even the irreligious have a right to their own destiny and to their own choices as to whether or not they choose to obey God's commandments. Should not governments, who are prone to error and rash judgement, be even more solicitous in abstaining from any legislation which can, and you know will be, used to bring disrepute...punishment...persecution and/or death to those who may disagree?
Further, to which branch of Christianity would you defer in relation to enacting legislation. I agree that we all have some things in common. But you can't legislate faith, only practice. So whose practice would you suggest? The Amish or SDA's? Catholic or Mormon? Hebrew Roots, Messianic, Methodist, Presbyterian, or maybe even an ecumenical compromise based loosely on those things upon which they can agree? Mmmm, sound familiar?
 

aspen

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That is a generalization.
I base my understanding on actually reading Scripture and actually reading enacted laws of American Statesmen.

Also the 68 references to God in the US Code.

The signing of Our US Constitution in the year of our Lord.

The Ten Commandments in numerous US Federal Buildings.

Engravings of Moses, in the USSC, the House of Representatives.

In God we trust on our money.

Personal letters of the Founders themselves.

God mentioned in our National Anthem.

Presidents swearing their oath of Service to the US, with their hand resting on a Bible.

Prayers opening Sessions of the USSC.

All 50 States mention God or a higher power in their Constitutions, preambles and or laws.

Numberous Christian symbols on and in US Federal Buildings and Monuments. A Bible encapusalated in a wall of a Federal building.

As a US citizen, you appear to not be to keen on the foundational history of the US.

However it's not too late to learn the truth.

God Bless,
Taken

Why is my list general, while your list (many references to God were added long after the founding of our country) is considered specific? Also, how do any of this references rule out Deism, which was much more popular than Christianity among the founding fathers?
 

Taken

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While these and other circumstantial evidence may be produced as evidence that in the main, despite the religious affiliations , whether to secret societies, or to institutional Christianity, the principles as espoused in the founding documents cannot be denied as brilliant and revolutionary in their concepts. I believe that God had His hand in this,

Agree

providing a way of escape and freedom from the persecutions, both religious and civil, so recently enshrouding the nations of Europe, thus giving His people an opportunity to prosper and settle unopposed in a land free of despotism.

I would lean also on providing opportunity.


However, deep in the dark tunnels and recesses of power are clues that not everything was hunky dory.

Well, I would simply say, establishing a Nation had input from many People, and was no easy task.

Satan is never far behind when it comes to where God is operating. Connecting the dots is not a difficult task when Satan's pride demands that he leaves behind him evidence of and clues to his accomplishments.

And like-wise; God.

Thus as Aspen said, the design and architecture of Washington is a brazen declaration of power...

The District was specifically established to be the Seat of the Federalist Government; or called the Seat of Power pertaining to the newly established Government, just as every individual State, Territory, Reseveration, has it's own Seat of Power.

So not sure why this is an issue.

The choice of politicians today is much the same as it was 225 years ago.

In some respect yes, in other respects no.

As Abraham Lincoln said (I am writing from memory) ...familiarise yourself again with the chains of bondage and you give the next man to take power the prerogative to chain you....or words to that effect.

Uh huh. Make no mistake. The Nation was founded on Liberty. Liberty is not FREE. It comes with a PRICE, and no doubt MANY do NOT choose to pay the PRICE. They who do not choose to pay the Price, become the burden on others, AND the Seat of Power, does hold the bonds/chains; the consequences, for those who elect to reject Liberty.

Not unlike, God provides the choice of Liberty, OR the consequence for choosing to Reject Liberty. God Himself, has the final say, of what shall become of the Rejectors.

God Bless,
Taken
 
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brakelite

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Uh huh. Make no mistake. The Nation was founded on Liberty. Liberty is not FREE. It comes with a PRICE, and no doubt MANY do NOT choose to pay the PRICE.
Mmmm. I think the greatest price to be paid for liberty is the constant vigilance required to maintain it. That saisd, it behooves to take care that in claiming liberty for ourselves, we aren't denying the same for others. That is where agape love enters the field. Self sacrificial love answers every quandary.
 

Taken

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Did you not a few posts back rightly denigrate the supreme court?

Sure did, and know why. Do you?

Would that not be because they are accepting legislation that does not provide for all men equally under the law?

No. Partly because they bench warrant MAKE legislation, on case Law.

Also because; The Law is SUPPOSED to be, clear and concise, that anyone can read it, and clearly comprehend its intent. (Or be repealed for vagueness).

When the USSC renders an Opinion, that is not Law.
When the USSC renders a Verdict, and it is NOT unanimous; HOW can that be? IF the Verdict was solely BASED on the LAW.
If there are split decisions on Opinions or Conflicting Laws; Opinions are irrelevant, and Conflicting Laws should be Repealled, VOID for vagueness.

Problem is: the USSC can not render a Law, UnConstitutional. That is the JOB of Congress, who is the culprit that enacts UnConstitutional Laws to begin with.

Persons seated in seats of power, ie House of Representives....were designed to take turns with other People from the public at large, as Servants to Protect the People's Rights. Today, Reps, main goal is to Keep "THEMSELVES" glued to seats of power, and use the People's Liberty (behind closed doors), as bargaining chips among their colleagues. And the Ignorant people, clamor, all but demanding they make more and more Liberty crushing Laws.

Back to religious legislation. I am sure you are familiar with the history of Europe, how that through various submissive kings and queens the Papal Antichrist managed to have enacted religious legislation which completely destroyed any and all vestige of religious liberty from the continent.

Your government was established to protect the freedoms of the people, not impose upon them restrictions or prescriptions for Christian living. [/QUOTE]

The US Government was established, to PROTECT "rights" of the People at large, by the Same Principles and Standards as God.

It is God WHO established Liberty, and those who established the US, acknowledged it was God WHO established Liberty.
The People have a right to secure their own Liberty.
The People WHO do not choose to secure their own Liberty, become the Burden of the Government, and thus the Thorny Burden of the People.

Even the irreligious have a right to their own destiny and to their own choices as to whether or not they choose to obey God's commandments.

Sure. No one said otherwise. And had the US been established WITH a National Religion called Christianity, True Liberty, would prevail.
And those who REJECT enjoying Liberty and taking care of their own, WOULD NOT, be the burden of the Government or the People at large.


Should not governments, who are prone to error and rash judgement, be even more solicitous in abstaining from any legislation which can, and you know will be, used to bring disrepute...punishment...persecution and/or death to those who may disagree?

Not sure your implication of error, as if any government governed by men making decision is perfect.
Not sure your implication of rash, as if there is disregard of examining ideas and backlash.

Sounds like you are challenging the Penal Code.
That's the beauty of a Federation. Very few are subject to the big scheme of the Federation, and otherwise subject to the Goverence and Laws of the sovereign individual States.
Every State has it's own Governance, and Laws. And All Laws are expressly written, available for public view. If one does not like the Governance or Laws, they have 49 other choices to reside in the jurisdictional boundaries of such other places, that they do agree with their laws and Governance.

Some States reject the Death Penalty; while other States invoke the Death Penalty and have an Express Lane to carry out the Sentence.

Some people of one State criticize the Laws of other States. So what? Their right to criticize, but not their right to have a say in the conduct of the matters of the State they criticize.

Like California for example. I have been there, obeyed their laws while traveling there;
But would never live there and subject myself to their Governance.

Further, to which branch of Christianity would you defer in relation to enacting legislation.

Not sure what you mean. There is an established body, that holds the power to enact Legislation.

I agree that we all have some things in common. But you can't legislate faith, only practice.

Who said Faith can be legislated?

What I said was the US was established on the Principles and Standards of God.

Are you challenging, such Principles and Standards of what is RIGHT, should be questioned, because it stems from Religious precepts of Christians whose precepts are "supposed" to be Godly "precepts" of what is RIGHT?

So whose practice would you suggest? The Amish or SDA's? Catholic or Mormon? Hebrew Roots, Messianic, Methodist, Presbyterian, or maybe even an ecumenical compromise based loosely on those things upon which they can agree? Mmmm, sound familiar?

Basis is one thing, for which I already expounded on.

Practice is another thing, for which I said nothing that requires anyone to Practice any particular religion.

To ask me WHICH practice I would suggest;
Would be for men to practice being free to take care of themselves, their own families, and not infringe on others.

God Bless,
Taken
 

Taken

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Why is my list general,

You mention freemasonry, but what about it?

Am I supposed to guess, you favor or do not favor such organization, and why?

while your list (many references to God were added long after the founding of our country) is considered specific?

The FOUNDERS, left behind their personal information, Via, written letters and records.

Adding structures and monuments, were planned, discussed, designed and oh ya.....the $$$$ funding raised to accomplish.
How silly they didn't first plant a money tree!

Also, how do any of this references rule out Deism, which was much more popular than Christianity among the founding fathers?

Well there are over 50 founding fathers, and perhaps you would like to share your knowledge of just 50 of the founding fathers and their religous beliefs, which I'm sure would be quite provoking to support your claims and an interest to us all.

As well perhaps you could expound on your favor or objection to Deism.

God Bless,
Taken
 

Taken

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Mmmm. I think the greatest price to be paid for liberty is the constant vigilance required to maintain it.

Sure. It is EASY, to forever be a burden at an others expense. It is HARD, for one to be responsible for themselves.

That saisd, it behooves to take care that in claiming liberty for ourselves, we aren't denying the same for others.

Claiming Liberty for ones self, is not the same as Exercising Liberty for ones self.

Denying Liberty? How so?

That is where agape love enters the field. Self sacrificial love answers every quandary.

How does the question of Love enter the equation?

God Bless,
Taken