Protestant Apostasy Pending?

[brakelite]

That's enough, to show you wrong.

To answer your question - Yes, that is exactly what we should understand.

Israel was a light unto the gentiles, which indeed established a moral ethic throughout the world based in their law. But it was their law, given only to them by God, and by covenant. You cannot add your own addendum to include the gentiles.

I would ask you to show scriptural proof that the gentiles were also under the law and the Old Covenant, but I know better - it's not there. So...now we are taking about you, not God, not Israel, but you...and it is not for you to say.

Perhaps I worded things a little wrongly...what I was saying is that murder is wrong for everyone...regardless of whether they have received a codified law or not...as was exemplified by the pagan king who came under a curse because he received Abraham's wife into his palace. Yes, Israel was to be a light to the Gentiles, which is why even Gentiles received a blessing when they joined Israel in keeping Sabbath.
As for the contention that the Sabbath today is only for Jews, I don't know about you, but I am a child of Israel...a child of the promise. The new covenant that speaks of the law being written upon the heart is actually the same covenant of grace that was promised to Adam and Eve, that Abel partook of, as well as Abraham, and all other in Hebrews 11 who by faith believed the promises and were accounted righteous. That same covenant of grace is for all mankind. That law written upon the hearts f those who accept this covenant by faith is the very same law that was written on stone. It hasn't changed. The only change between the two covenants is the means by which obedience is established. In the old, it was the fault of the people because they couldn't keep their promise to obey. In the new, the promise is solely and exclusively with God...all we need to do is believe it. That promise is that He would establish in us His righteousness...His law, through writing that law on our hearts and minds. He accomplishes this through abiding in us by His Spirit. As one poster previously said, He fills us with His love. Everything we then do is motivated by this love. Thus the law doesn't change, but no longer is it up to us to obey in our own strength and through our own effort, Israel has already proved that impossible...it is up to God to empower us to obey. Yes, Jesus is the end of the law to all them that believe. He was the goal...the final destination to which all the law pointed to.

 

[mjrhealth]

@brakelite If you want to keep the law fine, that is your own doing. Was Abraham before or after Moses, when was the sabbath instituted to the Israelites, did Noah keep the sabbath?? what about Enoch who was after and taken by God, did He keep teh sabbath, for them it was "faith" that was accounted to them for righteousness, while today men spend all there lives justifying works.

Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

how men love to boast, and pay for teh right to do so.

 

[bbyrd009]

You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; .... The contest has been maintained but feebly, for no blood has flowed in their struggle with temptation and sin; they have not deserted the arena, but have shrunk from the suffering which a determined struggle would have caused.

 

[ScottA]

Perhaps I worded things a little wrongly...what I was saying is that murder is wrong for everyone...regardless of whether they have received a codified law or not...as was exemplified by the pagan king who came under a curse because he received Abraham's wife into his palace. Yes, Israel was to be a light to the Gentiles, which is why even Gentiles received a blessing when they joined Israel in keeping Sabbath.
As for the contention that the Sabbath today is only for Jews, I don't know about you, but I am a child of Israel...a child of the promise. The new covenant that speaks of the law being written upon the heart is actually the same covenant of grace that was promised to Adam and Eve, that Abel partook of, as well as Abraham, and all other in Hebrews 11 who by faith believed the promises and were accounted righteous. That same covenant of grace is for all mankind. That law written upon the hearts f those who accept this covenant by faith is the very same law that was written on stone. It hasn't changed. The only change between the two covenants is the means by which obedience is established. In the old, it was the fault of the people because they couldn't keep their promise to obey. In the new, the promise is solely and exclusively with God...all we need to do is believe it. That promise is that He would establish in us His righteousness...His law, through writing that law on our hearts and minds. He accomplishes this through abiding in us by His Spirit. As one poster previously said, He fills us with His love. Everything we then do is motivated by this love. Thus the law doesn't change, but no longer is it up to us to obey in our own strength and through our own effort, Israel has already proved that impossible...it is up to God to empower us to obey. Yes, Jesus is the end of the law to all them that believe. He was the goal...the final destination to which all the law pointed to.

First, wording things a little wrongly, is quite alright.

But it is important to recognize that these are not the times of Israel, but the times of the gentiles. If we are to show honor to God, it is not good to do their work when we have our own.

Which is to say, their work, "It is finished." So, when you say that "even the gentiles were blessed when they joined with Israel in keeping Sabbath" as being good then, what ought to be good now by the same measure, is that those who consider themselves children of Israel during these times of the gentile, should do likewise and honor what has been given to the gentiles rather than that which was given to Israel. For if it was good for the gentiles to leave their own former practices to do as Israel did, the same should be true now, not continuing in what was finished, but honoring what is new. As you say, that law is now written in our hearts. By this we know that the practice of ceremonially keeping the law has been made obsolete, and by keeping it we testify against what was finished, rather than for it - we tell the world by our works, that "It is not finished."

We have our own work.

 

[brakelite]

First, wording things a little wrongly, is quite alright.

But it is important to recognize that these are not the times of Israel, but the times of the gentiles. If we are to show honor to God, it is not good to do their work when we have our own.

Which is to say, their work, "It is finished." So, when you say that "even the gentiles were blessed when they joined with Israel in keeping Sabbath" as being good then, what ought to be good now by the same measure, is that those who consider themselves children of Israel during these times of the gentile, should do likewise and honor what has been given to the gentiles rather than that which was given to Israel. For if it was good for the gentiles to leave their own former practices to do as Israel did, the same should be true now, not continuing in what was finished, but honoring what is new. As you say, that law is now written in our hearts. By this we know that the practice of ceremonially keeping the law has been made obsolete, and by keeping it we testify against what was finished, rather than for it - we tell the world by our works, that "It is not finished."

We have our own work.

Hi Scott. The weekly Sabbath was not part of the ceremonial laws. Those ceremonial laws and sanctuary services were given to Moses after Israel had broken the covenant by bowing down to the golden calf. Those services of the sanctuary....the priesthood...the annual feats and daily/monthly/yearly sacrifices were the gospel and the schoolmaster that pointed to Christ. They were God's solution to the sin problem. They were God's answer to the very human problem of law-breaking. Christ did not die for our transgressing against the ceremonial laws. He died because we transgressed God's moral law of ten commandments. The law of Moses was the cure for the sin problem...and it foreshadowed the ministry of Christ. The weekly Sabbath was never part of the cure. The weekly Sabbath was never part of the ceremonial system that foreshadowed the ministry of Jesus. The weekly Sabbath was instituted before sin...same as marriage. Both institutions are therefore holy, and can only be defiled by our own actions...aka sin. Thus observing the Sabbath cannot be the cure for defiling it.

 

[mjrhealth]

Hi Scott. The weekly Sabbath was not part of the ceremonial laws. Those ceremonial laws and sanctuary services were given to Moses after Israel had broken the covenant by bowing down to the golden calf. Those services of the sanctuary....the priesthood...the annual feats and daily/monthly/yearly sacrifices were the gospel and the schoolmaster that pointed to Christ. They were God's solution to the sin problem. They were God's answer to the very human problem of law-breaking. Christ did not die for our transgressing against the ceremonial laws. He died because we transgressed God's moral law of ten commandments. The law of Moses was the cure for the sin problem...and it foreshadowed the ministry of Christ. The weekly Sabbath was never part of the cure. The weekly Sabbath was never part of the ceremonial system that foreshadowed the ministry of Jesus. The weekly Sabbath was instituted before sin...same as marriage. Both institutions are therefore holy, and can only be defiled by our own actions...aka sin. Thus observing the Sabbath cannot be the cure for defiling it.

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

and so you, here lay a stumbling block before men, and so make a path before men to sin. The sabbath is not ours, it is a covenant with the Jews and was not made with us. we have Christ, in whom we rest. but so many like you choose to do works of your own, do as you wilt, but dont cause other men to stumble at your cost.

 

[bbyrd009]

and so you, here lay a stumbling block before men, and so make a path before men to sin.

boy, i read it three times and detect no stumbling block. Where?

The sabbath is not ours, it is a covenant with the Jews and was not made with us.

ah, still denying that the Ten Commandments is even relevant to you, huh?
i forgot. so never mind on the first Q above, i guess

we have Christ, in whom we rest.

you got delusion, pal, sorry to break it to you, i don't say that lightly.
But your constant refute of Scripture makes that pretty plain anyway i guess

there are no Jew or Gentile in the kingdom

 

[ScottA]

Hi Scott. The weekly Sabbath was not part of the ceremonial laws. Those ceremonial laws and sanctuary services were given to Moses after Israel had broken the covenant by bowing down to the golden calf. Those services of the sanctuary....the priesthood...the annual feats and daily/monthly/yearly sacrifices were the gospel and the schoolmaster that pointed to Christ. They were God's solution to the sin problem. They were God's answer to the very human problem of law-breaking. Christ did not die for our transgressing against the ceremonial laws. He died because we transgressed God's moral law of ten commandments. The law of Moses was the cure for the sin problem...and it foreshadowed the ministry of Christ. The weekly Sabbath was never part of the cure. The weekly Sabbath was never part of the ceremonial system that foreshadowed the ministry of Jesus. The weekly Sabbath was instituted before sin...same as marriage. Both institutions are therefore holy, and can only be defiled by our own actions...aka sin. Thus observing the Sabbath cannot be the cure for defiling it.

I did not say Sabbath keeping is "part of the ceremonial laws", but that keeping it is a ceremony.

Furthermore, Christ did not select which sins He died for as you seem to imply, but died for all sin. And to hear you describe it, it is obvious that you have made a religion of the ten commandments, which leaves you "practicing" for a race that has already been won. You act as if celebrating the race is our lot, rather than the victory. Certainly, we should be thankful for those who ran the race and for Christ who has won it, but it was not our race, but their's. We are rather benefactors, and the role of a benefactor is not the same as the role of one who has paid the price of victory.

As for the Sabbath being instituted before sin... No, it was not a practice to be emulated, but rather the word simply says that "He rested." Which is not a weekly practice or way of life forever, but a foreshadowing of the day that we should also enter into that same rest, which was two thousand years ago, and "today." And by continuing in the practice you turn your back to entering in, as if it had never come. Which if you do, it is as if you prefer that time in the desert, or like Lot's wife, who looked back against the command to look forward and go forth (enter in). For this same reason, Christ condemned the [law]yers.

 

[brakelite]

I did not say Sabbath keeping is "part of the ceremonial laws", but that keeping it is a ceremony.

Furthermore, Christ did not select which sins He died for as you seem to imply, but died for all sin. And to hear you describe it, it is obvious that you have made a religion of the ten commandments, which leaves you "practicing" for a race that has already been won. You act as if celebrating the race is our lot, rather than the victory. Certainly, we should be thankful for those who ran the race and for Christ who has won it, but it was not our race, but their's. We are rather benefactors, and the role of a benefactor is not the same as the role of one who has paid the price of victory.

As for the Sabbath being instituted before sin... No, it was not a practice to be emulated, but rather the word simply says that "He rested." Which is not a weekly practice or way of life forever, but a foreshadowing of the day that we should also enter into that same rest, which was two thousand years ago, and "today." And by continuing in the practice you turn your back to entering in, as if it had never come. Which if you do, it is as if you prefer that time in the desert, or like Lot's wife, who looked back against the command to look forward and go forth (enter in). For this same reason, Christ condemned the [law]yers.

Aaaah, so 'ceremonially' refraining from sleeping with another woman is not an expression of being faithful to your wife? How does one 'ceremonially' not steal...seeing as "By this we know that the practice of ceremonially keeping the law has been made obsolete...." Please explain how we can stay honest without 'ceremonially' keeping the law? How does one's obedience become a 'ceremony' ?

 

[brakelite]

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Why didn't Paul rebuke the Gentiles in the same fashion when they asked Paul to minister to them again the truths of the gospel he was preaching the following Sabbath? Why didn't Paul rebuke the entire city when they came together to hear the gospel that following Sabbath? (See Acts 13:42-44) Even more to the point, why is it that the Jews who were stirring up so much strife throughout Paul's ministry regarding circumcision, not say one word about the change of the Sabbath to Sunday...or to general rest in Christ...or to rest any day in seven...or to rest the 8th day....remind me, what replaced the Sabbath again?

 

[Helen]

 

[brakelite]

View attachment 1805

LOL, may I assume this is a token of frustration concerning the previous post? Ifso,is it frustration at not understanding where I am coming from, or frustration that I don't understand where everyone else is coming from? While it is true that Sabbath threads seem to permeate the internet, one would imagine that frequent references back to the word of God would have long settled the issue and controversy. So in one sense, I can fully understand your frustration. I would imagine that God Himself likely feels the same way...remind me not to lean against His wall. So obviously one side of the discussion isn't listening.
I remember it was a little over 20 years ago that I humbled myself before God and asked Him to take me back to the beginning again as I had just spent the previous 5 years in a sad back-slidden state that almost destroyed my family, my marriage, my faith. What vestige of faith that remained I used to call out for help. God is so gracious. His first word to me was "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness". In my 15 years as a pentecostal I had heard very little teaching on the subject of Christ's righteousness. So I entered into a time of fasting and prayer and Bible study that led me to His law. Then I discovered that His law is synonymous with His love. And that His love is His character. Thus His law, His love, His character, are His very nature.
Then I learned that as Christians we are to be transformed into that character. That character of love. That love which is the outward manifestation of the law. We are to be changed into His image. I discovered over time and study that salvation was not a one time event. That it was a process, and did not end at the cross. Just as the OT sanctuary services were the gospel for Israel, and for Israel their reconciliation with God did not begin and end at the altar of sacrifice, but incorporated the ministry of intercession or the mediatorial role of the priesthood inside the temple. This was the process by which we are changed into the image of Christ. Christ is now our High Priest officiating in the temple in heaven. It is through His ministry we are being sanctified...changed into His image by the indwelling of His Holy Spirit abiding in us, and through the preaching and efficacy of His word. This change...this infusing of the love of God...this miracle working power by which we are transformed into new creatures also brings us into harmony with His law. This takes time. It does not take place overnight. But it does happen. Thieves become honest. Adulterers become faithful. Idolators cast aside their covetousness. The hearts of the parents and children are knit to one another in love. Healing takes place...sinners are given power to overcome sin.
All of this is by faith. It is not by my effort that I became a new creature. And when I read that the Psalmist said that "all Thy commandments are righteousness" ....and "Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee"...and when I read the ten commandments I recognise in them promises to be accepted by faith. They are creative power in the hearts and minds of those that believe. "Thou shalt not steal"...."Thou shalt not commit adultery"...."Thou shalt not dishonour thy parents"...."thou shalt not bear false witness"...."remember to keep holy the Sabbath day...." etc.
Now you can get frustrated if you wish. But that is my testimony and my experience. I am not here to demand everyone keep the Sabbath. But as my first post pointed out, the time is coming when Sunday observance is going to be re-established as a civil law, supported by an apostate church. Just as it was in the 4th century and throughout the dark ages...just as it was in early America. It will be repeated, and on a global basis. That first post was written as a warning. Sabbath keepers will be targets of people such as yourself perhaps who get frustrated with us because we don't 'do' Christianity like the orthodox majority. We get charged with all manner of condemnation as this thread has exposed. Legalism; heresy;cult membership; you can do as you are freely given to do, but the time is coming soon when that privilege will be denied to us. Above is my defense. I could add many Bible references to support it, but I think you already are aware of them. I hope that in the future our opposers have a good sound Biblical defense for their position. Thus far I haven't seen one that is a justifiable Biblical foundation upon which God could rebuild my testimony.

 

[mjrhealth]

Why didn't Paul rebuke the Gentiles in the same fashion when they asked Paul to minister to them again the truths of the gospel he was preaching the following Sabbath? Why didn't Paul rebuke the entire city when they came together to hear the gospel that following Sabbath? (See Acts 13:42-44) Even more to the point, why is it that the Jews who were stirring up so much strife throughout Paul's ministry regarding circumcision, not say one word about the change of the Sabbath to Sunday...or to general rest in Christ...or to rest any day in seven...or to rest the 8th day....remind me, what replaced the Sabbath again?

Do what you will everyone else does, just dont expect a pat on the back, it is your burden you have chosen dont lay it upon others.

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

 

[ScottA]

Aaaah, so 'ceremonially' refraining from sleeping with another woman is not an expression of being faithful to your wife? How does one 'ceremonially' not steal...seeing as "By this we know that the practice of ceremonially keeping the law has been made obsolete...." Please explain how we can stay honest without 'ceremonially' keeping the law? How does one's obedience become a 'ceremony' ?

The problem is...you think this is all about you or us. It's not, it never was. If you keep practicing to enter into the rest of God (the Sabbath) after the time is fulfilled and it is finished, it's about you. If you actually do enter into the rest of God...it's about God. Instead of becoming One with God, you have made a god out of worshiping.

Get over yourself.

 

[brakelite]

Do what you will everyone else does, just dont expect a pat on the back, it is your burden you have chosen dont lay it upon others.

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

That you believe the Sabbath to be a burden is a floodlight on your mindset. Isbeing honest a burden? Or being faithful to your wife? Or being obedient to anything else God asks of us?

 

[mjrhealth]

That you believe the Sabbath to be a burden is a floodlight on your mindset. Isbeing honest a burden? Or being faithful to your wife? Or being obedient to anything else God asks of us?

It is for those who would rather live by teh works of the flesh than by the Spirit and grace.

Your burden you carry alone, not even Christ can help you with that one.

 

[aspen]

LOL, may I assume this is a token of frustration concerning the previous post? Ifso,is it frustration at not understanding where I am coming from, or frustration that I don't understand where everyone else is coming from? While it is true that Sabbath threads seem to permeate the internet, one would imagine that frequent references back to the word of God would have long settled the issue and controversy. So in one sense, I can fully understand your frustration. I would imagine that God Himself likely feels the same way...remind me not to lean against His wall. So obviously one side of the discussion isn't listening.
I remember it was a little over 20 years ago that I humbled myself before God and asked Him to take me back to the beginning again as I had just spent the previous 5 years in a sad back-slidden state that almost destroyed my family, my marriage, my faith. What vestige of faith that remained I used to call out for help. God is so gracious. His first word to me was "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness". In my 15 years as a pentecostal I had heard very little teaching on the subject of Christ's righteousness. So I entered into a time of fasting and prayer and Bible study that led me to His law. Then I discovered that His law is synonymous with His love. And that His love is His character. Thus His law, His love, His character, are His very nature.
Then I learned that as Christians we are to be transformed into that character. That character of love. That love which is the outward manifestation of the law. We are to be changed into His image. I discovered over time and study that salvation was not a one time event. That it was a process, and did not end at the cross. Just as the OT sanctuary services were the gospel for Israel, and for Israel their reconciliation with God did not begin and end at the altar of sacrifice, but incorporated the ministry of intercession or the mediatorial role of the priesthood inside the temple. This was the process by which we are changed into the image of Christ. Christ is now our High Priest officiating in the temple in heaven. It is through His ministry we are being sanctified...changed into His image by the indwelling of His Holy Spirit abiding in us, and through the preaching and efficacy of His word. This change...this infusing of the love of God...this miracle working power by which we are transformed into new creatures also brings us into harmony with His law. This takes time. It does not take place overnight. But it does happen. Thieves become honest. Adulterers become faithful. Idolators cast aside their covetousness. The hearts of the parents and children are knit to one another in love. Healing takes place...sinners are given power to overcome sin.
All of this is by faith. It is not by my effort that I became a new creature. And when I read that the Psalmist said that "all Thy commandments are righteousness" ....and "Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee"...and when I read the ten commandments I recognise in them promises to be accepted by faith. They are creative power in the hearts and minds of those that believe. "Thou shalt not steal"...."Thou shalt not commit adultery"...."Thou shalt not dishonour thy parents"...."thou shalt not bear false witness"...."remember to keep holy the Sabbath day...." etc.
Now you can get frustrated if you wish. But that is my testimony and my experience. I am not here to demand everyone keep the Sabbath. But as my first post pointed out, the time is coming when Sunday observance is going to be re-established as a civil law, supported by an apostate church. Just as it was in the 4th century and throughout the dark ages...just as it was in early America. It will be repeated, and on a global basis. That first post was written as a warning. Sabbath keepers will be targets of people such as yourself perhaps who get frustrated with us because we don't 'do' Christianity like the orthodox majority. We get charged with all manner of condemnation as this thread has exposed. Legalism; heresy;cult membership; you can do as you are freely given to do, but the time is coming soon when that privilege will be denied to us. Above is my defense. I could add many Bible references to support it, but I think you already are aware of them. I hope that in the future our opposers have a good sound Biblical defense for their position. Thus far I haven't seen one that is a justifiable Biblical foundation upon which God could rebuild my testimony.

This is just another way to feel unique and special. I enjoyed reading the love part of your presentation, but your distraction into the law seems to nulify it. Centering your brand of Christianity on the Sabbath is perilous. I agree with other people here who have mentioned that the Sabbath was created for the Jewish people. Indeed, we have entered into God’s rest - Jesus’s work on the cross is completed. Clinging to a life raft during a rescue operation is not helpful

 

[bbyrd009]

but i bet obeying the Commandments will be, and saying that "the Sabbath was created for Jews" is a dangerous prop imo.
There's a thin line between death and rest, i guess

 

[brakelite]

This is just another way to feel unique and special. I enjoyed reading the love part of your presentation, but your distraction into the law seems to nulify it. Centering your brand of Christianity on the Sabbath is perilous. I agree with other people here who have mentioned that the Sabbath was created for the Jewish people. Indeed, we have entered into God’s rest - Jesus’s work on the cross is completed. Clinging to a life raft during a rescue operation is not helpful

It isn't me who connects the law to Christ's character...or to the nature of God. It is scripture. The character of God...love...and the law cannot be separated from one another. God is love. And love is the fulfilling of the law. To attempt to separate the law of God from that image into which we have been predestined to be transformed into is to bind ourselves into a state of lawlessness.

 

[aspen]

It isn't me who connects the law to Christ's character...or to the nature of God. It is scripture. The character of God...love...and the law cannot be separated from one another. God is love. And love is the fulfilling of the law. To attempt to separate the law of God from that image into which we have been predestined to be transformed into is to bind ourselves into a state of lawlessness.

So Paul was wrong about circumcision and food laws?