Protestant Reformation

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IanLC

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Was it a move toward truth, or a step in the wrong direction?

As a protestant I beleif it was ment at first to be both a revival and reformation for the Catholic church. Luther never intended to form a new branch of Christianity it was meant to change and correct false doctrine and practices in the catholic church. But since the Catholic church did not want to change it killed and persecuted many protestants in result starting a new branch of Christianity! It reminds me of main strean Judaism and Christianity!

What are your thoughts?
 

Butch5

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Oct 24, 2009
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Was it a move toward truth, or a step in the wrong direction?

As a protestant I beleif it was ment at first to be both a revival and reformation for the Catholic church. Luther never intended to form a new branch of Christianity it was meant to change and correct false doctrine and practices in the catholic church. But since the Catholic church did not want to change it killed and persecuted many protestants in result starting a new branch of Christianity! It reminds me of main strean Judaism and Christianity!

What are your thoughts?

I think the inital intent was good, but I think the reuslts were near disasterous.
 

Foreigner

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Must one list the litany of issues of the world that was dominated by the Catholic church?
 

Julian of York

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Thank you for your post!
I am Protestant, in fact a Reformed Baptist. I am sorry to hear you say that not much has changed with the Protestant Church. While Christ preached in Matthew 13 that there would be wheat and tares in the Kingdom of Heaven, and that ALL branches of the Church would be contaminated by bad doctrines, I believe that the Protestant Church has a better grip on the New Testament and the Teachings of Christ than any other group, else I would be something different.
Why am I a Protestant?
1)Because of the Word of God. The Bible was held as a monopoly by the Jews and the Hebrew speaking world until the First Century AD, when it was taken over by the Romans and their monopoly on Latin. Jerome and others produced a fairly accurate translation of the Old and New Testament, but they translated it into Latin. Through the years, small portions of the Word of God were translated into French, German, and that most heretical tongue,ENGLISH! Eventually, Tyndale paid for his life by translating the Bible, Wycliffe almost did, and many other Protestant's gave their life to propigate and protect the Book. Even arch-conservatives like Bishop Cranmer and other Anglicans were burnt alive at the stake for their beliefs. ANY GROUP OF MEN AND WOMEN THAT BELIEVE STRONGLY ENOUGH IN GOD'S BOOK TO BE MARTYRED BY BEING BURNT TO DEATH ,I'M GONNA LISTEN TO AND ASSOCIATE WITH.
2)Because of the doctrine of election. I was a Baptist for all my life, and have only become Reformed in the last year. I had trouble with the doctrine of election, but now I see the true majesty and sovereignity of God and His Right to choose whomever He Will to spend eternity with Him. "Whosoever will may come", but you and I and God know that "most won't". Those that God draws to Himself are those that will choose Him, because He provides the Grace through the Holy Spirit to show them that they are lost,Hell-bound,and in need of a Saviour.They are shown,by the Spirit, the absolute beauty and desirability of Christ, and the foul depravity of the world. And they choose Christ. "But after the kindness (another word for "grace") and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His Mercy He saved us." Titus 3:4&5 His grace placed Jesus and His Merit,Worth,Beauty,Holiness,Loveliness between a Holy God and a wretched man."Herein is our love made perfect,that we may have boldness in the Day of Judgement: because as He is,so are we in the world." I John 4:17 My beloved friend, it is not I that chose Christ! That is the LAST thing a person would do. "The Lord hath appeared of old unto me,saying,yea,I have loved thee with an everlasting love;therefore with loving kindness have I drawn thee." Jeremiah 31:3 And because of election I am saved. And because Protestants, by and large, teach and preach election, I am a protestant.

Julian of York
Protestant
 

Templar81

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Most ordinary people in the 16th century were too busy getting on with the very harsh grind of everyday life, so they weren't too big on theological debates.

So the reformation didn't come from average Joes, it came from intellectuals like Luther, Clavin adn Zwingli.
 

Julian of York

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Mar 23, 2011
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Thank you for your post!
I am Protestant, in fact a Reformed Baptist. I am sorry to hear you say that not much has changed with the Protestant Church. While Christ preached in Matthew 13 that there would be wheat and tares in the Kingdom of Heaven, and that ALL branches of the Church would be contaminated by bad doctrines, I believe that the Protestant Church has a better grip on the New Testament and the Teachings of Christ than any other group, else I would be something different.
Why am I a Protestant?
1)Because of the Word of God. The Bible was held as a monopoly by the Jews and the Hebrew speaking world until the First Century AD, when it was taken over by the Romans and their monopoly on Latin. Jerome and others produced a fairly accurate translation of the Old and New Testament, but they translated it into Latin. Through the years, small portions of the Word of God were translated into French, German, and that most heretical tongue,ENGLISH! Eventually, Tyndale paid for his life by translating the Bible, Wycliffe almost did, and many other Protestant's gave their life to propigate and protect the Book. Even arch-conservatives like Bishop Cranmer and other Anglicans were burnt alive at the stake for their beliefs. ANY GROUP OF MEN AND WOMEN THAT BELIEVE STRONGLY ENOUGH IN GOD'S BOOK TO BE MARTYRED BY BEING BURNT TO DEATH ,I'M GONNA LISTEN TO AND ASSOCIATE WITH.
2)Because of the doctrine of election. I was a Baptist for all my life, and have only become Reformed in the last year. I had trouble with the doctrine of election, but now I see the true majesty and sovereignity of God and His Right to choose whomever He Will to spend eternity with Him. "Whosoever will may come", but you and I and God know that "most won't". Those that God draws to Himself are those that will choose Him, because He provides the Grace through the Holy Spirit to show them that they are lost,Hell-bound,and in need of a Saviour.They are shown,by the Spirit, the absolute beauty and desirability of Christ, and the foul depravity of the world. And they choose Christ. "But after the kindness (another word for "grace") and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His Mercy He saved us." Titus 3:4&5 His grace placed Jesus and His Merit,Worth,Beauty,Holiness,Loveliness between a Holy God demanding perfection and a wretched man."Herein is our love made perfect,that we may have boldness in the Day of Judgement: because as He is,so are we in the world." I John 4:17 He took my place on the Cross, and takes my place in my stead, having undergone my wrath for me.My beloved friend, it is not I that chose Christ! That is the LAST thing a person would do. We all consider ourselves "good enough".But God Almighty drew us to Himself."The Lord hath appeared of old unto me,saying,yea,I have loved thee with an everlasting love;therefore with loving kindness have I drawn thee." Jeremiah 31:3 And because of election I am chosen of God for Eternity.. And because Protestants, by and large, teach and preach election, I am a protestant.

Julian of York
Protestant
 

Foreigner

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Not many have changed with the Protestant church,



Really?

I guess I have missed out on the mandatory membership, threats of prison or death for questioning the church leadership, calls for Crusades where they say to kill an infidel is a ticket to heaven, hunting, torturing and killing "witches" as in during the Inquisition, Indulgences, active efforts to thwart science including the threat of prison or death if they do not recant, corrupt Papal leadership, etc. etc. etc.


On the flip side, many groups within the Protestant church openly question the validity of scripture, call for the ordination of gays, want Biblical teachings to up "updated" to match a new enlightenment in modern society, proscribe social justice to the point of illegal activity, etc.

Apples and oranges...




.
 

rockytopva

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As I believe there are seven church ages unfolding as seven church ages I place the protestants as Sardisean.

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/13598-the-seven-church-ages-per-gods-word/

I don't think that the Philadelphian or Laodicean churches are protestant nor do they care about the old Sardisean / Thyatirean rifts.


The European continent could only live with one religion during this time. So England embraced Anglicanism, Spain Catholicism, Russia Orthodox, Germany Lutheranism, parts of Northern Europe Calvinism. Back in those days the state would take control of the religion making in just as bad as the Thyatirean church before it. An example was John Calvin, having seen a person of different persuasion then his (Michael Servetus) in his congregation had him arrested and eventually burned at the stake. What kind of love was that? So I ask this board was John Calvin right in toasting Michael Servetus? Were the Catholics right in toasting all those protestants? Were the Anglicans right in persecution all those in the 1600's for not acknowledging their book of prayer (Note John Bunyan spent a good bit of his life in prison due to this)?

I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. - Rev 3:1

The Sardisean church likes to think that they have the corner on everything, not realizing they are just as dead as those whom they rebelled from. But... We have John Bunyan and John Wesley paving the way for revival! Also many of the Philadelphian church age moved to America where they would enjoy the wonderful freedom of worship. Thus we would have the creation of camp meetings and revivals.

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:- Joel 2:28


And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.-Joel 2:29

So after 1700 years of Christiandom we finally see the return of the Spirit of God and revival. I have studied history and find little in the form of revival between the book of Acts and John Bunyan. In which I must worry... Did revival end with the Philadelphian church age?
 

Butch5

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Oct 24, 2009
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Really?

I guess I have missed out on the mandatory membership, threats of prison or death for questioning the church leadership, calls for Crusades where they say to kill an infidel is a ticket to heaven, hunting, torturing and killing "witches" as in during the Inquisition, Indulgences, active efforts to thwart science including the threat of prison or death if they do not recant, corrupt Papal leadership, etc. etc. etc.


On the flip side, many groups within the Protestant church openly question the validity of scripture, call for the ordination of gays, want Biblical teachings to up "updated" to match a new enlightenment in modern society, proscribe social justice to the point of illegal activity, etc.

Apples and oranges...




.

Really? What about Luther, when the peasants start to rise up against him he suggested the royalty exterminate them. What about Stephen Servetus? When he set himself in opposition to Calvin, Calvin said if Servetus ever comes to Geneva, if my authority is worth anything he will not leave alive. Guess what, Servetus didn't leave alive. Read what happened to the Anabaptists when they opposed the reformers. Sorry my friend but the reformer carried on the tradition.

Concerning the Scriptures they have just about as much false doctrine as did the Catholic church. Calvin's perseverance of the saints, not Biblical, the heavenly destiny, not Biblical, Luther's "Faith alone" not Biblical, baptism is merely a sign of obedience, not Biblical. Need I go on?

You mentioned witches, just look at Massachusetts, the Salem witch trials were a product of the Reformation. So what really changed? We just went from one wrong set of doctrines to another.
 

Butch5

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Oct 24, 2009
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Thank you for your post!
I am Protestant, in fact a Reformed Baptist. I am sorry to hear you say that not much has changed with the Protestant Church. While Christ preached in Matthew 13 that there would be wheat and tares in the Kingdom of Heaven, and that ALL branches of the Church would be contaminated by bad doctrines, I believe that the Protestant Church has a better grip on the New Testament and the Teachings of Christ than any other group, else I would be something different.
Why am I a Protestant?
1)Because of the Word of God. The Bible was held as a monopoly by the Jews and the Hebrew speaking world until the First Century AD, when it was taken over by the Romans and their monopoly on Latin. Jerome and others produced a fairly accurate translation of the Old and New Testament, but they translated it into Latin. Through the years, small portions of the Word of God were translated into French, German, and that most heretical tongue,ENGLISH! Eventually, Tyndale paid for his life by translating the Bible, Wycliffe almost did, and many other Protestant's gave their life to propigate and protect the Book. Even arch-conservatives like Bishop Cranmer and other Anglicans were burnt alive at the stake for their beliefs. ANY GROUP OF MEN AND WOMEN THAT BELIEVE STRONGLY ENOUGH IN GOD'S BOOK TO BE MARTYRED BY BEING BURNT TO DEATH ,I'M GONNA LISTEN TO AND ASSOCIATE WITH.
2)Because of the doctrine of election. I was a Baptist for all my life, and have only become Reformed in the last year. I had trouble with the doctrine of election, but now I see the true majesty and sovereignity of God and His Right to choose whomever He Will to spend eternity with Him. "Whosoever will may come", but you and I and God know that "most won't". Those that God draws to Himself are those that will choose Him, because He provides the Grace through the Holy Spirit to show them that they are lost,Hell-bound,and in need of a Saviour.They are shown,by the Spirit, the absolute beauty and desirability of Christ, and the foul depravity of the world. And they choose Christ. "But after the kindness (another word for "grace") and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His Mercy He saved us." Titus 3:4&5 His grace placed Jesus and His Merit,Worth,Beauty,Holiness,Loveliness between a Holy God and a wretched man."Herein is our love made perfect,that we may have boldness in the Day of Judgement: because as He is,so are we in the world." I John 4:17 My beloved friend, it is not I that chose Christ! That is the LAST thing a person would do. "The Lord hath appeared of old unto me,saying,yea,I have loved thee with an everlasting love;therefore with loving kindness have I drawn thee." Jeremiah 31:3 And because of election I am saved. And because Protestants, by and large, teach and preach election, I am a protestant.

Julian of York
Protestant


Well, my friend, there were men and women who were martyred for God's word long before the Reformers, and they didn't believe what the reformers taught. So, which group are you going to listen to and associate with?

You see the Reformed doctrines can only be traced back approximately 500 years to Luther and Calvin. The men and women I mentioned lived around 100 A.D. to 200 A.D. Some of them actually knew the apostles. I'm talking about men like Ignatius and Polycarp. These were disciples of the apostle John. If you presented them with the reformed doctrines they would tell you that those doctrines were heretical and taught by the Gnostics.

The reformed understanding of the doctrine of Election is incorrect also. God doesn't arbitrarily choose who will be saved.
 

Foreigner

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Not many have changed with the Protestant church,


-- Sorry Butch but this is actually what you said ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

The examples you gave in your last post are ALL past tense. WAY past tense.

And NONE of them reached the depth or severity of what was done in the Catholic church.

Your statement implies it is going on today. I already showed that isn't the case. Not even close.

So actually yes, you do need to "go on."
 

Butch5

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-- Sorry Butch but this is actually what you said ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

The examples you gave in your last post are ALL past tense. WAY past tense.

And NONE of them reached the depth or severity of what was done in the Catholic church.

Your statement implies it is going on today. I already showed that isn't the case. Not even close.

So actually yes, you do need to "go on."

Well, let me ask you, is it still going on in the Catholic Church?

It's all past tense my friend. You want to discuss severity, well, the reformed theology has not had near as much time as did Catholic theology. I also notice you just dismissed what was done by the reformers. It doesn't matter if it was one person killed or 1000, it is still wrong for anyone group calling themselves Christians. Many people died at the hands of those of the Reformation. Let's look at the English civil war Protestants Anglicans against Protestant Anglicans, killing each other over who had the correct doctrine. Look at the Catholic that were slaughtered by Cromwell an Anglican protestant.. When the Catholics fled into their churches for protection he just burned them down. How Christian is that? Look at the American Revolutionary and Civil wars. You had American Christians killing English Christians in one war and American Christians killing American Christina's in the other. So show me where there is any difference. There's been just as much war and killing among protestants as there has been among Catholics.
 

Templar81

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I'm an Anglican but I don't think of myself as Protestant. The correct term for Anglcians is Catholic and reformed because we only broke with Rome, not the universal Catholic chruch and yet we reformed the church, doing away with many Papaist practices but keeping the practices of the early church. But we are also a broard church and as such we have Evangelicals and Sacramentals. Some of us don't believe in infant baptism and at the other end of the sacale many of us believe in Transubstanciation (including myself). This was reflected greatly in teh struggle between the Cavaliers and the Roundheads back in the 17th century.
 

Butch5

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I'm an Anglican but I don't think of myself as Protestant. The correct term for Anglcians is Catholic and reformed because we only broke with Rome, not the universal Catholic chruch and yet we reformed the church, doing away with many Papaist practices but keeping the practices of the early church. But we are also a broard church and as such we have Evangelicals and Sacramentals. Some of us don't believe in infant baptism and at the other end of the sacale many of us believe in Transubstanciation (including myself). This was reflected greatly in teh struggle between the Cavaliers and the Roundheads back in the 17th century.

Hi Templar,

I wasn't singling out Anglicans they just happened to be the incidents that came to mind; It's all of the denominations, that's one reason I don't claim any. I'm Christian and only Christian, I believe denominations are sin, they divide the church and drive a wedge among brothers. In John chapter 17 Jesus prayed that His followers would be one, denominations hinder that unity.
 

Templar81

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I knew you were only using it as an example.

I would say though Christian unity is to be striven for and I hope that ultimately it will happen, for now the many denominations allow the individual to find a church that suits them.
 

Julian of York

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What a hodge podge! An Anglican that believes in Trans -substantiation, a Wesley Free-Willer who believes in Salvation by Water Baptism, and a newly reformed Baptist who has taken Romans chapter 8 to heart and believes in Salvation by Grace, God's Grace, which He foreknew those personally that would be redeemed and elected them unto Himself.
I think this is where we take a look at the Book.
1)Salvation is by Grace,through Faith. "And be found in Him,not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith in Christ,the righteousness which is of God by faith." Phillipians 3:9
"For they,being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.:Romans 10:3
Any work, or effort, or act that is done to merit salvation is "GOING ABOUT TO ESTABLISH YOUR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS."
2)Salvation is a gift. A FREE gift. It was given before the foundation of the world.
VERSES AVAILABLE LATER...

Julian of York

 

Butch5

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What a hodge podge! An Anglican that believes in Trans -substantiation, a Wesley Free-Willer who believes in Salvation by Water Baptism, and a newly reformed Baptist who has taken Romans chapter 8 to heart and believes in Salvation by Grace, God's Grace, which He foreknew those personally that would be redeemed and elected them unto Himself.
I think this is where we take a look at the Book.
1)Salvation is by Grace,through Faith. "And be found in Him,not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith in Christ,the righteousness which is of God by faith." Phillipians 3:9
"For they,being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.:Romans 10:3
Any work, or effort, or act that is done to merit salvation is "GOING ABOUT TO ESTABLISH YOUR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS."
2)Salvation is a gift. A FREE gift. It was given before the foundation of the world.
VERSES AVAILABLE LATER...

Julian of York


This my friend this is one of the reasons I left Reformed theology. It is nothing more than a proof texting exhibition. It "DOES NOT" take context into account, it simple has some preconceived ideas and pulls passage of Scripture out of "CONTEXT" in an attempt to support them. It is nothing more than the "Doctrine of Men".

Now, let's look at the passages that you quoted "IN CONTEXT".


Philippians 3:9 ( KJV )
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

If you look at history you will find that a major problem Paul had during his ministry was dealing with the Judaizers. This was a group of Jews, probably believers, who believed that is was still necessary to keep the law of Moses. They traveled around behind Paul going to his new Gentile converts and telling them that in addition to believing in Christ it was also necessary for them to keep the Mosaic Law. That is the reason for the Jerusalem council.


Acts 15:1 ( KJV )
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Galatians 3:1-3 ( KJV )
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

So, works (of the Law) and faith are a major portion of Paul's writings. What most Christians miss is that these works he speaks of are works of the Mosaic Law "NOT" good works that are commanded. When you read Paul's letters take notice that when you see the word works, most of the time you will find a reference to the Mosaic Law close by. That is what we have here in Philippians 3 .

You see you've quoted this passage out of context. You said any work one does is seeking their own righteousness, but that is "NOT" what Paul said. He said he wasn't seeking his own righteousness which is through the Law. He is speaking of the Mosaic Law. He "DID NOT" say anything he did was seeking his own righteousness.

You see your interpretation of that passage actually contradicts Paul's words to the Romans.


Romans 2:5-10 ( KJV )
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Paul says that those who continue in well doing are seeking eternal life. Now, if doing anything was seeking our own righteousness, then all of the well doing in the world would not be seeking eternal life, it would be seeking our own righteousness, yet it's not. Paul says that those who continue in well doing are seeking eternal life, "NOT" their own righteousness. So, you interpretation of Philippians 3 contradicts Paul's words in Romans.

2)Salvation is a gift. A FREE gift. It was given before the foundation of the world.

No one was saved before the foundation of the world, you simply cannot support that with Scripture.

So, you see, context is extremely important, this proof texting method of approaching the Scriptures which so many Christians are taught does nothing but lead them to a misunderstanding of the Scriptures
 

Foreigner

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Well, let me ask you, is it still going on in the Catholic Church?

It's all past tense my friend. You want to discuss severity, well, the reformed theology has not had near as much time as did Catholic theology. I also notice you just dismissed what was done by the reformers. It doesn't matter if it was one person killed or 1000, it is still wrong for anyone group calling themselves Christians. Many people died at the hands of those of the Reformation. Let's look at the English civil war Protestants Anglicans against Protestant Anglicans, killing each other over who had the correct doctrine. Look at the Catholic that were slaughtered by Cromwell an Anglican protestant.. When the Catholics fled into their churches for protection he just burned them down. How Christian is that? Look at the American Revolutionary and Civil wars. You had American Christians killing English Christians in one war and American Christians killing American Christina's in the other. So show me where there is any difference. There's been just as much war and killing among protestants as there has been among Catholics.




-- Again, Butch, your point is moot. Your statement implied that the things the Catholics did in the past are going on today in the Protestant church.
That is obviously not the case.


Your statement about the Revolutionary and Civil wars is - to put it bluntly - ridiculous.


Why?


Because those wars had nothing to do with a person's Christian faith, spreading that faith, or punishing someone for not having a certain faith.


You cannot - if you are an honest person - compare those war to wars in the past whose goal was oriented on converting or killing all those who do not have a certain faith.


Please focus.
 

Butch5

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-- Again, Butch, your point is moot. Your statement implied that the things the Catholics did in the past are going on today in the Protestant church.
That is obviously not the case.


Your statement about the Revolutionary and Civil wars is - to put it bluntly - ridiculous.


Why?


Because those wars had nothing to do with a person's Christian faith, spreading that faith, or punishing someone for not having a certain faith.


You cannot - if you are an honest person - compare those war to wars in the past whose goal was oriented on converting or killing all those who do not have a certain faith.


Please focus.

Are you related to 03Cobra? The point is valid. I didn't imply that what happened in the Catholic church was presently happening in the Protestant church. I asked what was any different. The Protestants did many of the same things that you are accusing the Catholics of. You want to talk about being honest why is it OK for the Protestants to do it but not the Catholics. Whether you want to believe it or not the Protestants in the Reformation had people killed who did hot hold their theology. Likewise the Puritans had people killed who they accused of being witches. I mentioned Cromwell who, when the Catholics fled into their churches for protection, simply set them on fire. I mentioned the English civil war that the High church Anglicans at war with the Puritan Anglicans because they disagreed doctrinally. The American war were not based on differences of beliefs, however, you still had people who were claiming to be Christians killing other people who were claiming to be Christians. This also came out of the Protestant Reformation. If the Protestant Reformation had been such a wonderful thing and had actually gotten back to the Scriptural teachings of Jesus Christ, neither of the two American wars I mentioned would have taken place.

So please tell what was the great benefit of the Reformation?