Purgatory - A Catholic's Understanding
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Except it is not misapplied. The splitting of judging a man’s work but not the man is specious.
Next quarter, I have to give annual reviews of my engineering team. How do you propose I evaluate them OTHER than their actions, I,e., works? LOL
Sadly the Protestants love to look at things from a carnal perspective and many love to take the words of the Bible literally.
But any idiot can read the Bible through literal eyes, but they miss so much that is of real true Spiritual value.
I remember my Pastor ranting and raving to me, not to bother seeking what the word were all about, I would say look here and look here and here I can see something taking place in all this. he would rear up angry as and start a dribble resighting exercise, now he was all about only indoctrination full on, I thought that he would of been interested in going through it all with me but he would only just run away as fast as he could from such questioning.
I came to Bible study to learn about Jesus Christ, not to be indoctrinated with nonsense that just gets in the way of Christ Salvation.
They have a fantasy Heaven a man made one that is truly devoid of Lordship Salvation.
So he was not interested in fact, he had learnt to become a servant for his Church and that's were it all ended, like so many Priest of any denomination.
I have met the same in many RC Priest as well that were shockingly hopeless, talking about Jesus Christ was the last thing that they wanted to talk about truly. they would talk about their religion and of the last 10 years not even that, it's all may as well be just a Socialist stance, that I could get from any Unionist organisation or from the Socialist Party it's self.
I pointed out about Lordship Salvation to some and they near had a fit, but what they thought or were duped into thinking was a outright lie !
The point I make it that Christ Jesus is your Lord and Saviour and only in him is the way and nothing other. Religious works do not cut it and Mans works do not cut it at all.
The are all about look what we are doing, look at us and this world. look at the Jews they have come back into the Land ? and I say by the works of Man they are but not as to God in fact. it's all held together by mans works sadly, pull that key out and it will fall like a pack of cards. sadly For they are carnal and know not God, they claim to be born again but are not truly at all in fact. Just like St Stephen when he exposed them for who they were truly serving, I experienced the same hatred channelled against me ! only they feared to take me on, if they thought that they had a chance to bash me up they would of.
Many “Christians” are taught “WORK” is a “REQUIRED” element “to Receive and Maintain” SALVATION.
Many “Christians” are taught “THEY” can “PRAY” for a soul sent to Hell, to BE purified BY God, thus effecting a “restoration” of that soul, “unto God”.
As verbs the difference between work and service
is that work is to do a specific task by employing physical or mental powers while service is to serve.
Scriptural teaching, TEACHES, SALVATION, IS a gift FROM God.
Scriptural teaching, TEACHES, SALVATION, “received” by a man:
IS expressly Dependent ON TWO THINGS, OF an individual man to RECEIVE Gods Gift of Salvation.
1) From ANCIENT days of mans beginning, TO this Day and Forward...
ANY man...WHO believes IN God and His Word “AT THE TIME” of ANY mans BODILY DEATH....that man... WILL BE Saved.
2) From 2,000+ years ago, TO this Day and Forward...
ANY man....WHO believes IN God and His Word....”AND” WHO has “Heartfully” CONFESSED His Belief....”HAS RECEIVED, at THAT MOMENT”...Gods Gift OF SALVATION.... THAT man “IS” Sav-ED.
ANY man, After his bodily death, receiving “his Salvation Gift from God”...and
ANY man, Before his bodily death, receiving “his Salvation Gift from God”...
HAVE “received” from God...... an Irrevocable Gift
The “GIFT of Salvation” FROM GOD, Given TO an individual...IS PRECISELY FOR the “individuals” SERVICE /not works unto God.
WORKS, is WHAT “a SERVANT of God”, “CAN DO” to glorify God.
POINT BEING...WORKS is “NOT part of the equation TO BECOME a recipient OF Gods Gift of Salvation....OR TO KEEP Gods Gift of Salvation!!!”
A mans “REASONABLE SERVICE” unto God...IS accepting Gods Offering FOR HIS “works and Power”, to TRANSFORM a “heartfully willing man...INTO a SERVANT OF GOD!
Romans 12:
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
WORKS, thereafter, that a SERVANT of God “DOES” which “DOES” glorify God, that SERVANT, “shall BE Rewarded” BY God, WITH “gifts and blessings”...FROM God.
Praying for SOULS, IN Hell to be Purified and Saved...IS a Long time “Catholic taught Doctrine and Tradition”. The “concept” of Praying “FOR” saints, is also a long time “Biblical” teaching.
* When you review, the long time history of Christ following men, calling themselves, “Catholics”.... THOSE DAYS, were WHEN, “knowledge” of “saints living souls WERE IN HELL, IN a DIVIDED Comfort Section of Hell, “in Comfort WITH Abraham”, WAITING WITH Abraham, FOR (the Christ Messiah to Come to them....and LEAVE Hell (as He is First in all things).
* Once the Christ Messiah’s living soul, WENT TO the Comfort side of Hell, AND LEFT Hell...
* AND was the FIRST Living soul TO “GO” UP to Heaven...
....Living souls, in the Comfort side of Hell, WITH Abraham, were (After Jesus’ ascension UP to Heaven)....Living souls, IN Comfort, WITH Abraham, were escorted UP to Heaven.
....Jesus fulfilled the Prophetic Scriptures of BEING FIRST.
....The necessity of Faithful Living souls, (departed out of dead body’s), WAITING in the comfort side of Hell, CEASED.
....Praying FOR FAITHFUL departed Living souls IN Hell, Became MOOT.
Yet “Catholics” CONTINUE to “PRAY for departed living souls IN HELL”, (WHICH are “NOT SAINTS”, expressly because at the time of their BODILY Death THEY were “AGAINST” God).
* Nothing whatsoever Scripturally Teaches...Gods Gift of Salvation IS OFFERED BY God TO: Departed Living souls, WHICH REJECTED GOD, while that Living soul WAS IN it’s living body.
* Who in the hell are Catholics Praying FOR? Living souls IN HeLL, that are Against God? Praying for God to “purify them” that STAND AGAINST God?
WHY? HOW? Force them to Believe? Open a Door God Himself has SHUT?
* Clearly Scripture teaches....ONCE the BODY is physically DEAD...THE DOOR IS SHUT for that man TO CHOOSE TO BE “WITH” God.
* The “opportunity” FOR a man, TO CHOOSE, “for his body, his soul, his spirit” TO BE WITH God, IS Expressly during a “mans physical bodily living existence”.
* Once a mans BODY is physically DEAD, So ALSO is that mans “opportunity” TO RECEIVE Gods OFFERING of SALVATION!
There are NO “living souls” of “saints” Remaining IN HELL.
Did Catholics NOT understand...Jesus FULFILLED the Prophecy???
Departed Living Souls AGAINST God, have NO “option” to become “MADE” Saved.
Many “Christians” are taught “THEY” can “PRAY” for a soul sent to Hell, to BE purified BY God, thus effecting a “restoration” of that soul, “unto God”.
As verbs the difference between work and service
is that work is to do a specific task by employing physical or mental powers while service is to serve.
Scriptural teaching, TEACHES, SALVATION, IS a gift FROM God.
Scriptural teaching, TEACHES, SALVATION, “received” by a man:
IS expressly Dependent ON TWO THINGS, OF an individual man to RECEIVE Gods Gift of Salvation.
1) From ANCIENT days of mans beginning, TO this Day and Forward...
ANY man...WHO believes IN God and His Word “AT THE TIME” of ANY mans BODILY DEATH....that man... WILL BE Saved.
2) From 2,000+ years ago, TO this Day and Forward...
ANY man....WHO believes IN God and His Word....”AND” WHO has “Heartfully” CONFESSED His Belief....”HAS RECEIVED, at THAT MOMENT”...Gods Gift OF SALVATION.... THAT man “IS” Sav-ED.
ANY man, After his bodily death, receiving “his Salvation Gift from God”...and
ANY man, Before his bodily death, receiving “his Salvation Gift from God”...
HAVE “received” from God...... an Irrevocable Gift
The “GIFT of Salvation” FROM GOD, Given TO an individual...IS PRECISELY FOR the “individuals” SERVICE /not works unto God.
WORKS, is WHAT “a SERVANT of God”, “CAN DO” to glorify God.
POINT BEING...WORKS is “NOT part of the equation TO BECOME a recipient OF Gods Gift of Salvation....OR TO KEEP Gods Gift of Salvation!!!”
A mans “REASONABLE SERVICE” unto God...IS accepting Gods Offering FOR HIS “works and Power”, to TRANSFORM a “heartfully willing man...INTO a SERVANT OF GOD!
Romans 12:
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
WORKS, thereafter, that a SERVANT of God “DOES” which “DOES” glorify God, that SERVANT, “shall BE Rewarded” BY God, WITH “gifts and blessings”...FROM God.
Praying for SOULS, IN Hell to be Purified and Saved...IS a Long time “Catholic taught Doctrine and Tradition”. The “concept” of Praying “FOR” saints, is also a long time “Biblical” teaching.
* When you review, the long time history of Christ following men, calling themselves, “Catholics”.... THOSE DAYS, were WHEN, “knowledge” of “saints living souls WERE IN HELL, IN a DIVIDED Comfort Section of Hell, “in Comfort WITH Abraham”, WAITING WITH Abraham, FOR (the Christ Messiah to Come to them....and LEAVE Hell (as He is First in all things).
* Once the Christ Messiah’s living soul, WENT TO the Comfort side of Hell, AND LEFT Hell...
* AND was the FIRST Living soul TO “GO” UP to Heaven...
....Living souls, in the Comfort side of Hell, WITH Abraham, were (After Jesus’ ascension UP to Heaven)....Living souls, IN Comfort, WITH Abraham, were escorted UP to Heaven.
....Jesus fulfilled the Prophetic Scriptures of BEING FIRST.
....The necessity of Faithful Living souls, (departed out of dead body’s), WAITING in the comfort side of Hell, CEASED.
....Praying FOR FAITHFUL departed Living souls IN Hell, Became MOOT.
Yet “Catholics” CONTINUE to “PRAY for departed living souls IN HELL”, (WHICH are “NOT SAINTS”, expressly because at the time of their BODILY Death THEY were “AGAINST” God).
* Nothing whatsoever Scripturally Teaches...Gods Gift of Salvation IS OFFERED BY God TO: Departed Living souls, WHICH REJECTED GOD, while that Living soul WAS IN it’s living body.
* Who in the hell are Catholics Praying FOR? Living souls IN HeLL, that are Against God? Praying for God to “purify them” that STAND AGAINST God?
WHY? HOW? Force them to Believe? Open a Door God Himself has SHUT?
* Clearly Scripture teaches....ONCE the BODY is physically DEAD...THE DOOR IS SHUT for that man TO CHOOSE TO BE “WITH” God.
* The “opportunity” FOR a man, TO CHOOSE, “for his body, his soul, his spirit” TO BE WITH God, IS Expressly during a “mans physical bodily living existence”.
* Once a mans BODY is physically DEAD, So ALSO is that mans “opportunity” TO RECEIVE Gods OFFERING of SALVATION!
There are NO “living souls” of “saints” Remaining IN HELL.
Did Catholics NOT understand...Jesus FULFILLED the Prophecy???
Departed Living Souls AGAINST God, have NO “option” to become “MADE” Saved.
Scripture IN IT’S LITERAL FORM, is “simply” KNOWLEDGE, FROM God, given men, written by men, distributed by men.
I do not “require” a man-made “title”...Protestant, catholic, or whatever “title” a person “chooses” to suit them....to Understand God Himself provided HIS WORD to mankind, for mankind’s Benefit, for mankind’s FREEWILL to believe Gods Word “OF Knowledge”...OR NOT.
No particular “title” a man chooses for himself, establishes that mans “extent or limits”....of the mans “KNOWLEDGE” of God Word....or the man “BELIEVING” of the “Knowledge” of Gods Word.
Scripture itself, VERIFIES, God CAN NOT LIE, God Word of His Knowledge IS TRUE. Sure any man “idiot” or otherwise can Read Scripture.
And absolutely...SOME MEN, reject, Gods LITERAL Word as “acceptably” (to them) as Being TRUE.
Men who REJECT Gods LITERAL Word....AS TRUE...have “established” a plethora of “reasonings”.....it’s allegorical, it’s metaphorical, it’s figurative... blah, blah.
Once men ACCEPT Gods LITERAL Word...IS: allegorical, metaphorical, figurative.....”their reasonings”....EXPAND TO: their MINDFUL, “understandings” “meanings” of Gods Word, “they changed” from ABSOLUTE TRUTH....to “whatever” THEY “determined”.
The FACT IS: Gods Word IS TRUE as IT STANDS.
The FACT IS: Understanding of the KNOWLEDGE of Gods WORD...
IS: precisely a GIFT, (from God), that God GIVES to men WHO TRUST His Literal WORD....even when their Carnal Mind has decided it makes no sense to them.
I take EVERY WORD that God Himself spoke and approved, AS LITERAL.
It matters NOT, if it makes sense to “my” CARNAL MIND, or the Carnal minds of “other” men.
“Spiritual Understanding” OF Gods Word of Knowledge, IS an offering OF God, TO men, WHO exhibit TRUST in Gods Word of Knowledge, (whether or not they understand His Knowledge).
“IF” a man has to “supersede” Gods plain Literal Word, with “a mans” establish ”non Biblical, words”....allegorical, metaphorical, figurative....(which by the way, IS teaching men to be “CAUTIOUS”, “suspicious”, “unbelieving” IN Gods literal Word)...
WHAT exactly IS that man “revealing” TO GOD?
TO Trust God, even when they DO NOT Understand?
OR
TO Trust Men, and Get their “understanding” FROM men?
Gods Word of Knowledge, IS TRUE, as it Stands.
“Understanding” of Gods Word of “HIS” Knowledge, “IS a gift from God”, GIVEN men “WHO TRUST His Word of His Knowledge.”
Men can “Talk about”, “Discuss” THEIR Understanding OF God Word...
However men “CAN NOT” “GIVE” Gods Understanding OF HIS Word “TO OTHER MEN.”
Same as one man CAN NOT, “Believe, Confess, Give Gods Gifts, Learn Gods Knowledge, Know Gods Knowledge, Study Gods Knowledge or Understand Gods Knowledge”.....FOR ANOTHER MAN
* God IS IN THE business of ESTABLISHING, ONE on ONE relationships, OF ONE God Himself and One man himself....Each...One God Himself and One man himself, IN Full Agreement OF EACH to FREELY and FULLY Agree TO a ONCE and FOREVER established Relationship, TO BE FOREVER one “WITH” the other.
Glory to God,
Taken
I normally ignore your posts - they are so off the wall.
But this is ridiculous even for you. Perhaps you just enjoy trolling.
The Catholic Church doesn't teach, and has never taught that souls can be prayed out of hell.
When or what I come across is people who believe the written word is literal ? any non believer will be on that level, I know of many who have or claimed to of read the Bible, even from start to finish and yes some do know well the words etc but lack the Holy Spirit, Just like it was with the leading Jews and their leadership did and sadly they are only religious, yet not knowing or understanding Christ Jesus truly at all. Big difference !
A mate said to me that he has read start to finish of the Bible ? literally ? but I said you can never pick up truly by just reading like that, because one has to know a lot more, one finds that you have missed some understanding when reading over the 2ed time coming from another angle that you have learnt along the way and yet again the 3rd time and so on, now after you have read and studied the Bible after years and say 40 times things become much more clearer as to what it truly is that you are dealing with in the pages.
One is better to have some knowledge of Hebrew and History and Latin as well and then the interpretation of such in English becomes much more fruitful.
Not to mention that if you have a bastardised modern day version of the bible it will be dead words and not lead you to the Holy Spirit at all but to become just a religious bastard. like the Jews loving a worldly blight that is to their damnation.
We have such within all so called Christian denominations, they do not lead anyone to Christ Jesus (the proof is in the pudding of that clearly) but only into the curse of a Mans works ego trip were they put themselves above all others and start raping children etc because they are a curse, not to mention any denomination that supports such people is going to Hell, because they clearly let it fester.
My learned mates who have read the bible once, I found out that such was only a small Bible and I say you want to study the whole OT before you claim to know the NT in depth. but they can not drag themselves to read the Bible that they have, because it's a pain for them to endure but with me I can't wait to read the Bible with gladness and joy, it's the Best book by far to read and non other comes remotely close in anyway.
You must be somewhat aware, Not “ALL” Catholics Believe the exact same things! Your Church may have an “official teaching”, however just as you make your claims on behalf of your Catholic beliefs, so do other Catholics!
Yes there ARE “Catholics”;
That believe they were “naturally born Catholic”...
That Pray “TO statues”...
That believe “Jesus IS a human”...
That Pray “TO souls in heaven”...
That Pray “FOR souls in hell”...
You obviously are unaware you are not the only Catholic who espouses what they believe.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
You are evaluating their actions and accomplishments. You are not evaluating their innate worth as human beings.
How can you conflate “what they do” with “who they are”?
Why would God make that mistake?
And out of the 1.4 billion Catholics in the world how many do you personally KNOW that believe they can pray people out of hell?
Your option is limited to observance of their WORKS.
God is all knowing. He knows the thoughts in a mans heart. He knows IF a man lied, cheated, to gain a higher recognition, position, grade, evaluation, etc.
God Rewards a man WHOSE works Glorify God.
Gods Reward is called “treasures stored in heaven”.
Jesus noticed us He shall give a man he reward, When He returns.
Glory to God,
Taken
Cristo Rei
Well-Known Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
It’s no mistake at all. The passage clearly says we will be judged by our acts, which is the common means we judge. Language usage.
None of this changed who we are, nor does the passage suggest it. Appeal to STRAWMAN.
What difference Does it make, If I know, had conversations with, 1, 20, 100, a million people who Claim they ARE Catholic, and we discuss “THEIR BELIEFS” ?
Catholics are QUICK to “proclaim” Catholics Have a ONE CHURCH Official Teaching, and Protestants have a multitude of “Official Churches and Teachings”.
The FACT IS: Every Person IS an Individual, (whether they are claiming the title for themselves OF Protestant or Catholic)
The FACT IS: Not every person who Proclaims they ARE Protestant or Catholic BELIEVE or DO the exact SAME, as every other Protestant or Catholic.
* Catholic “BABY”S” are “inducted” into membership of the Catholic Church, “unbeknown to the Baby”.
* Some Protestant Churches Follow the Same “ceremonial procedure”.
^ In those cases, when the baby is about 7 or 8 years of age, another planned “ceremony” takes place, whereby the child, makes their own verbal confession of Belief.
* Some Protestant Churches Teach young Children ABOUT God, ABOUT Christ Jesus, and “when” the Individual IS ASSURED of his own Belief, he decides “when” he will Call on the Lord, and Make his heartful Confession of Belief.
* Thereafter, “IF” that individual, elects to ALSO “become a member of THAT man-made Church”; He can schedule a planned ceremony of “water Baptism”.
* Once that individual becomes a “member” of THAT man-made Church, and elects to “join” another “man-made Church”....his “water Baptism” record IS transferred and accepted to be a member of a different “man-made Church”.
Point being...No one has Become a “MEMBER” of Christ’s Spiritual CHURCH, UNTIL, “they” have Confessed “their Heartful Belief” IN the Lord God, at which time....The Lord Gods Works Converts the individual.
Point Being...one calling oneself Catholic or Protestant or Christian or Believer, means NOTHING specific.
Point Being...one calling oneself Converted IN Christ, Sav-ED, Born Again....
IS Expressly Specific of them claiming TO BE A MEMBER of “CHRIST’S Spiritual Church”!
ONLY the “individual”....AND “the Lord God”...KNOW FOR SURE....IF that man “IS” a member of Christ’s Spiritual Church.
Other men....can Have an “indication”, an “idea” another man IS a MEMBER OF CHRIST’S SPIRITUAL CHURCH...BY A mans behavior, A mans words, A mans works....
A man calling himself a Protestant, a Catholic, a Christian....simply is an “indication” of WHAT “doctrines and traditions and man-made church” an individual follows and attends.
You are a member of a man-made Catholic Church, you follow Catholic Doctrines, you follow Catholic Traditions....I don’t. So what?
You Joined your Catholic Church according to that Churches requirements.
I am a member of Christs Spiritual Church.
I joined Christ’s Spiritual Church, according to Christ’s requirements.
Christ’s Church Belongs to Christ. Christ IS the Solid Rock Foundation, Chief Corner Stone, and Head of His Spiritual Church.
Christ’s Doctrine Prevails IN His Spiritual Church.
Christ’s Church is BUILDED, (not with brick, stone, mortar with men’s hands).
Christ’s Church is BUILDED, with-IN Converted men, adding Converted man, by Converted man to It’s Membership.
The First men to Become Members of Christ’s Spiritual Church, WERE Jesus’ Chosen, and Converted Disciples.
They BEING the FIRST, “are honored” as the First to Hear, to Learn, to Accept, Jesus’ Knowledge and Offerings. AND the First of Earthly men, TO Preach and Teach, other Earthly men...Their FIRST HAND TESTIMONIES, ABOUT Christ Jesus. They ARE remembered and honored, For their great Service unto the Lord God Almighty. Their Teachings and First hand Testimonies Orally and Written ARE highly Favored to TRUST.
You wondering how many Catholics I “personally know”, is irrelevant.
Individuals “speak for themselves”, regardless of the “title” they wear.
I knew an elderly woman, “raised” Catholic. Married a “Catholic”. Had a son, and she Divorced her husband. She told everyone, (including her son), that her husband DIED! She continued going to Catholic Church, raised her son in the Catholic Church. I asked her, What she liked about the Catholic Church. She said, the beauty OF the Church, the stained glass, attire, statues, decorations, the music, the singing, fellowship and the sound of the Priest SPEAKING the Sermon in LATIN. I asked when she learned LATIN. She said NEVER! (Well that was “enlightening”. She was listening to Preaching and Teaching in a Language she did NOT know or understand!)
So on about the time her son turned age 15, the body of his father DID DIE. The father’s brother contacted the son, and offered to take him to his dads funeral (which was about 8 States away from where the boy lived). The boy declined the offer to go to his dads funeral, whom he was TOLD died Years earlier.
This is just ONE case of a Catholic’s own Testimony, being Vested in membership of a Catholic Church, keeping secret her Divorce, not understanding the Preaching in Latin, impressed with the beauty of the man-made Catholic Church, raising her son under a lie, raising her son as a Catholic, but not a clue, of what Christ taught.
The mother remarried, passed away, is buried in a “Catholic” cemetery.
The son married a “Protestant”. The Protestant wife, had 4 children, took her children to Protestant English Speaking Churches to LEARN about God, about Christ Jesus, and every child matured in their faith and elected to submit their lives in Conversion TO Christ.
The husband (son), Never took his children to a Catholic Church, Never himself continued to attend a Catholic Church. To this day, (the son, whom I also know), continues to claim he is Catholic, fully is steeped in the knowledge of Catholic “doctrine”, but does not “follow” Catholic doctrine.
Point being, it does not matter what the OFFICIAL doctrine is of ANY man-made Church is. Individuals can become members, remain members, of man-made Churches, and still have their own “individual” beliefs, ideas, behaviors acceptable of themselves.
Sure it does. You are limited in knowledge. You base your decisions, evaluations on your limited knowledge. God is all knowing, no man can “trick” God, by word or an act of a well orchestrated performance.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Your doctrine is getting ahead of the Word of God. How does the verse about being judged by ones work = judging one by their heart?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Sad to hear. What I’ve seen is people put their doctrine ahead of the actual word of God.
I recall one poster who wrote she is not even going to look at the Biblical support as she does not believe it. Huh?
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