Question for Amill's only

[Michiah-Imla]

we will continue in prophecy, eschatology, and open biblical debate surrounding this

While your Bibles collect dust and many other parts in it neglected…

 

[ewq1938]

Your claim is false, Jesus can't return at "Anytime"

It's not my claim if you bothered to actually read the posts. Some Amills do believe Jesus can come at any time.

 

[Truth7t7]

While your Bibles collect dust and many other parts in it neglected…

You have no idea on what, people on this board study biblically, prophecy and eschatology is a major part of biblical content, and you think your going to silence its study and debate "Smiles"!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

You have no idea on what, people on this board study biblically, prophecy and eschatology is a major part of biblical content, and you think your going to silence its study and debate "Smiles"!

Funny how Bible reading is despised around here…

That must be beneath your superior intellects…

 

[Truth7t7]

Sure, some details are different but in both doctrines Jesus can return at any time. Premill/Post-trib believes a false christ can come at any time and some Christians will accept him and take part in the Apostasy.

"Once again" Your claim in bold red above is false, Jesus can't return at "Anytime"

As Christian Gedge "Ahmill" has stated in post #4 above, Satan will be revealed to the world in his little season "Prior" to the second coming, and I agree 100% an "Ahmill"

Scripture clearly teaches (The Man Of Sin/The Antichrist) must be revealed on earth "Before" the return of Jesus Christ, its that simple

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[Truth7t7]

Funny how Bible reading is despised around here…

That must be beneath your superior intellects…

It appears your in the wrong forum, this is the eschatology/prophecy forum

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Jesus Is The Lord

Amen to that!

 

[Christian Gedge]

I don’t waste time learning all the theological code words…

I have better things to spend time on, like Bible reading.

We all have a few. For example, 'rapture' is our word for what the Bible describes as a 'catching away.' Its OK to use descriptive words.

 

[ewq1938]

"Once again" Your claim in bold red above is false, Jesus can't return at "Anytime"

It is the belief of Pretrib and many Amill's that Jesus can return at any time. I reject that as non-biblical.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Doesn't it bother you that Pre-trib believes in the same basic thing as you - your imaginary future millennial earth overrun by the wicked, cursed by sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease, war and terror, and Satan and his minions?

I've addressed this question to you several times now: Where do Premills, generally, state that the future Millennium will be "overrun by the wicked, cursed by sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease, war and terror, and Satan and his minions?"

Quite simply put, you are at the very least exaggerating, and at the worst, misrepresenting the Premill position, including PreTribs. I'm not a Pretrib.

Premills generally see the future Millennium as a time of peace, controlled by Christian authority. Christ's 2nd Coming brings about not only the destruction of Satan's Kingdom on earth, but it establishes peace among nations for a Millennium.

I'll remind you that "bearing false witness" is a sin. Please don't go there--not even slightly. It's always best to be fair to an opposing opinion, or risk coming across as rude and intractable.

 

[Truth7t7]

I've addressed this question to you several times now: Where do Premills, generally, state that the future Millennium will be "overrun by the wicked, cursed by sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease, war and terror, and Satan and his minions?"

Quite simply put, you are at the very least exaggerating, and at the worst, misrepresenting the Premill position, including PreTribs--I'm not a Pretrib. Premills generally see the future Millennium as a time of peace, controlled by Christian authority. Christ's 2nd Coming brings about not only the destruction of Satan's Kingdom on earth, but it establishes peace among nations for a Millennium.

You teach Satan is loosed at the end of your proclaimed millennium and organizes a global rebellion against Jesus Christ, Your proclaimed millennium has mortal humans dying, no exaggeration from WPM whatsoever

Jesus sits on a throne and is chief funeral director in your proclaimed millennium

 

[WPM]

I've addressed this question to you several times now: Where do Premills, generally, state that the future Millennium will be "overrun by the wicked, cursed by sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease, war and terror, and Satan and his minions?"

Quite simply put, you are at the very least exaggerating, and at the worst, misrepresenting the Premill position, including PreTribs. I'm not a Pretrib.

Premills generally see the future Millennium as a time of peace, controlled by Christian authority. Christ's 2nd Coming brings about not only the destruction of Satan's Kingdom on earth, but it establishes peace among nations for a Millennium.

I'll remind you that "bearing false witness" is a sin. Please don't go there--not even slightly. It's always best to be fair to an opposing opinion, or risk coming across as rude and intractable.

Totally disagree. Read what happens in Revelation 20, not what you wish it taught.

Where does Revelation 20 teach that "the future Millennium as a time of peace"?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Totally disagree. Read what happens in Revelation 20, not what you wish it taught.

Where does Revelation 20 teach that "the future Millennium as a time of peace"?

The position I suggest Premills hold is stated everywhere, and needs no reference. I could quote references all day long. The Millennium, as even the UN building indicates, will cause swords to be turned to plowshares. “Let Us Beat Our Swords Into Plowshares,” by Evgeniy Vuchetich in the United Nations Art Collection, 1959. | The Core Curriculum

The Millennium is a time of relative peace, according to Rev 20. The rebellion of Satan takes place *after* the Millennium!

Rev 20.7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle.

Rev 20 indicates that Christ and those who overcome the Antichrist will reign. This is not exclusive of the rest of Christianity, but rather, a focus specifically on the narrative of Antichrist vs. Christian overcomers in that time period.

The purpose of Christ's reign is to remove the influence and deception of Satan during the thousand years, thus bringing a measure of peace to the earth. The idea of "peace" comes from cross-referencing to OT prophecies that Premills often identify with a literal Millennium, such as...

Isa 9.6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.

And....

Isa 2.4 He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.

 

[WPM]

The position I suggest Premills hold is stated everywhere, and needs no reference. I could quote references all day long. The Millennium, as even the UN building indicates, will cause swords to be turned to plowshares. “Let Us Beat Our Swords Into Plowshares,” by Evgeniy Vuchetich in the United Nations Art Collection, 1959. | The Core Curriculum

Really? You are using something written on the UN building as support for Premil? I would safely question anything they would proclaim about Scripture. This highlights how bereft you are of scriptural support. This is the weakest argument I have ever seen on this forum.

The Millennium is a time of relative peace, according to Rev 20. The rebellion of Satan takes place *after* the Millennium!

Where does Rev 20 teach that "The Millennium is a time of relative peace"? Give me Scripture please. It is simply not there. The Premil millennium has widespread feigned worship to Christ. It has Christ deceived by multiple millions of charlatans making their way to Jerusalem to watch the slitting of throats of goats and lambs for sin futile useless offerings. It ends in anarchy, mutiny and war as billions turn against Christ in a global uprising of billions. We see the wholesale millennial evangelistic bust when Satan at the drop of the hat claims the millennial inhabitants for himself (as the sand of the sea)? This whole proposal is a massive sham.

Premil has the saints being brought back to this world to witness all the corruption and debauchery that blights this current age. They do so (amazingly) in their glorified bodies for 1,000 years. Premil also has saints that have been delivered from a sinful world thousands of years ago being forced to come back to watch the folly of the rebuilding of a new temple, the debacle of futile animal sacrifices, the restoration of the old covenant priesthood, continued, sin, death and decay. Finally, the saints will have to engage in spiritual warfare in their glorified bodies with Satan and his global army Gog and Magog. This is so fanciful and contrary to Scripture. It will never happen. All because of a mistaken chronological reading of one chapter in Scripture located in the most obscure book in the Bible and the most hotly debated chapter in Scripture.

The purpose of Christ's reign is to remove the influence and deception of Satan during the thousand years, thus bringing a measure of peace to the earth.

Yea, and where it arrives after 1000 years of perfect peace and rest? Thankfully, this will never happen.

The idea of "peace" comes from cross-referencing to OT prophecies that Premills often identify with a literal Millennium, such as...

Isa 9.6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.

And....

What has this to do with a future millennium? That is ridiculous. There is no mention of any element of Rev 20.No text is safe with your fixation of Premil.

Isa 2.4 He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.

This is exactly at the core of Premil. It is always forcing a meaning on Scripture that suggests that Scripture contradicts itself and therefore allows them to push their flawed doctrine. This subject is a case-in-point. It allows Premils to invent 2 NHNEs - Mark 1 that is corrupt, temporal and full of billions of the unrighteous, and needs replaced after 1000 years, and Mark 2 that is perfect, glorified and righteous and belongs alone to the elect and will last forever. They do the same with "the last days." Because of their misinterpretation of Isaiah 2 and Malachi 4, they invent an additional last days period that starts after "the last day." That is insane. 2 wrongs do not make a right. Their faulty theology causes them to duplicate clear, distinct, unique and singular time-periods in order to fit their false narrative.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Really? You are using something written on the UN building as support for Premil? I would safely question anything they would proclaim about Scripture. This highlights how bereft you are of scriptural support. This is the weakest argument I have ever seen on this forum.



Where does Rev 20 teach that "The Millennium is a time of relative peace"? Give me Scripture please. It is simply not there. The Premil millennium has widespread feigned worship to Christ. It has Christ deceived by multiple millions of charlatans making their way to Jerusalem to watch the slitting of throats of goats and lambs for sin futile useless offerings. It ends in anarchy, mutiny and war as billions turn against Christ in a global uprising of billions. We see the wholesale millennial evangelistic bust when Satan at the drop of the hat claims the millennial inhabitants for himself (as the sand of the sea)? This whole proposal is a massive sham.

Premil has the saints being brought back to this world to witness all the corruption and debauchery that blights this current age. They do so (amazingly) in their glorified bodies for 1,000 years. Premil also has saints that have been delivered from a sinful world thousands of years ago being forced to come back to watch the folly of the rebuilding of a new temple, the debacle of futile animal sacrifices, the restoration of the old covenant priesthood, continued, sin, death and decay. Finally, the saints will have to engage in spiritual warfare in their glorified bodies with Satan and his global army Gog and Magog. This is so fanciful and contrary to Scripture. It will never happen. All because of a mistaken chronological reading of one chapter in Scripture located in the most obscure book in the Bible and the most hotly debated chapter in Scripture.



Yea, and where it arrives after 1000 years of perfect peace and rest? Thankfully, this will never happen.



What has this to do with a future millennium? That is ridiculous. There is no mention of any element of Rev 20.No text is safe with your fixation of Premil.



This is exactly at the core of Premil. It is always forcing a meaning on Scripture that suggests that Scripture contradicts itself and therefore allows them to push their flawed doctrine. This subject is a case-in-point. It allows Premils to invent 2 NHNEs - Mark 1 that is corrupt, temporal and full of billions of the unrighteous, and needs replaced after 1000 years, and Mark 2 that is perfect, glorified and righteous and belongs alone to the elect and will last forever. They do the same with "the last days." Because of their misinterpretation of Isaiah 2 and Malachi 4, they invent an additional last days period that starts after "the last day." That is insane. 2 wrongs do not make a right. Their faulty theology causes them to duplicate clear, distinct, unique and singular time-periods in order to fit their false narrative.

I have no intention of arguing Premil vs Amil, which is what you're doing right now. You're completely bypassing my points in order to insist on misrepresenting the Premill position. Your choice. Let others decide. I've said my bit.

Incidentally, your indication that the restoration of animal sacrifices, believed in by some Dispensationalists, is on a par with a "sin-filled world" is illegitimate. Did God consider animal sacrifices under the Law as "sin?" On the contrary.

I'm not a Dispensationalist, and I don't believe in a Millennial restoration of animal sacrifices. But it hardly constitutes proof of a sin-filled Millennium. Dispensationalists are not in this advocating for a "sin-filled Millennium!"

And I've already pointed out that Satan's rebellion, for Premills, takes place *after* the Millennium. Premill belief in Satan's final rebellion hardly constitutes Premill belief in a "sin-filled Millennium!"

 

[Randy Kluth]

You teach Satan is loosed at the end of your proclaimed millennium and organizes a global rebellion against Jesus Christ, Your proclaimed millennium has mortal humans dying, no exaggeration from WPM whatsoever

Jesus sits on a throne and is chief funeral director in your proclaimed millennium

I've explained to WPM that he is misrepresenting Premill belief when he says we advocate for a "sin-filled Millennium." Premills teach that Satan's rebellion takes place *after* the Millennium, and not *during* the Millennium.

 

[WPM]

I have no intention of arguing Premil vs Amil, which is what you're doing right now. You're completely bypassing my points in order to insist on misrepresenting the Premill position. Your choice. Let others decide. I've said my bit.

Incidentally, your indication that the restoration of animal sacrifices, believed in by some Dispensationalists, is on a par with a "sin-filled world" is illegitimate. Did God consider animal sacrifices under the Law as "sin?" On the contrary.

I'm not a Dispensationalist, and I don't believe in a Millennial restoration of animal sacrifices. But it hardly constitutes proof of a sin-filled Millennium. Dispensationalists are not in this advocating for a "sin-filled Millennium!"

And I've already pointed out that Satan's rebellion, for Premills, takes place *after* the Millennium. Premill belief in Satan's final rebellion hardly constitutes Premill belief in a "sin-filled Millennium!"

Most non-Dispy Premils believe in the rebuilding of a millennial temple, the restoration of animal sacrifices and the restarting of sin offerings. If there is that there must be sin.

Are you saying that your millennial inhabitants are sinless? Are you saying there is going to be no death then? Are you saying there is going to be no corruption?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Most non-Dispy Premils believe in the rebuilding of a millennial temple, the restoration of animal sacrifices and the restarting of sin offerings. If there is that there must be sin.

Are you saying that your millennial inhabitants are sinless? Are you saying there is going to be no death then? Are you saying there is going to be no corruption?

No, you're right that Premills--at least some, like me, believe there will be mortal, sinful humans on the Millennial earth. It will be a continuation of human history as it is today--only without Satan's interference and with the advantage of Christian rule.

So it will be a mitigation of the impact of sin on international relations, in particular, which is peace on earth. But this is hardly characterized as "sin-filled," or "goat-infested." Sin will be suppressed.

So my concern was not that you're inaccurate about Premills like me believing in a sinful humanity in the Millennium. Rather, it is wrong, in my view, to created an exaggerated picture of sin to the extent that it appears sin will ravage the earth, much as we see today with international war at times, etc. Antichristianity will be largely suppressed and controlled.

As for the reintroduction of animal sacrifice, I have no idea how many Premills hold to that position? I certainly don't. I don't believe George E. Ladd did either, and he was quite influential among Premills.

But I admit the strong influence of Dispensationalism in this area, and I would strongly agree with your position in that respect. The Law is gone, and will never again be introduced, with animal sacrifices, temple, priesthood, etc.

That's an important element in your Amil position, but I only agree with that part of it. I agree with Reformation theology with respect to the Law and Grace.

 

[Truth7t7]

I've explained to WPM that he is misrepresenting Premill belief when he says we advocate for a "sin-filled Millennium." Premills teach that Satan's rebellion takes place *after* the Millennium, and not *during* the Millennium.

Your claimed millennial kingdom has people dying, it has humans working into rebellion against Jesus Christ to gather in battle

WPM explained it just as you believe and teach, death, decay, and rebellion

Yes your proclaimed kingdom on earth has Jesus sitting on a throne watching humans dying around him, as lambs and lions are feeding together in peace, a morbid twisted picture, it's that simple

 

[Randy Kluth]

Your claimed millennial kingdom has people dying, it has humans working into rebellion against Jesus Christ to gather in battle

WPM explained it just as you believe and teach, death, decay, and rebellion

Yes your proclaimed kingdom on earth has Jesus sitting on a throne watching humans dying around him, as lambs and lions are feeding together in peace, a morbid twisted picture, it's that simple

I think you're too emotionally-driven over these matters to discuss this in a productive way. Please see my answers to WPM in this regard.