Question for Amill's only

[Randy Kluth]

Stop avoiding the elephant in the room!

But sin, rebellion and the wicked increase to such an alarming degree that billions of wicked turn on Christ, follow Satan, and surround the camp of the saints. This is the dirty little secret that Premils wish was not in the Bible. They live in denial in regard to the overwhelming global scale of this. It totally negates their perfect pristine paradise they want to portray. Thankfully there is a way out. Embrace the truth. Embrace Amil and embrace a new future perfect arrangement that is devoid of sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease, war and terror, and Satan and his minions.

Amillennialists have no such problems with Revelation 20.

The problem is, I don't see any "elephant!" The Satanic rebellion *after* the Millennium is not a problem for me. My point is that *during the Millennium* there will be relative peace among nations, with Christian rule presiding. Satan is bound and unable to stir up international strife and Antichristian opposition to Christianity.

How long it takes for the sin-infected world to return to Antichristianity and international strife following the release of Satan is a matter for conjecture.

 

[ewq1938]

That can only be fulfilled with the binding of Satan.

I prefer to use "imprisonment". Binding is only part of what happens and Amill's latch onto it and rarely speak of the rest of what happens so they can isolate and distort what being bound with a chain means.

 

[Truth7t7]

So, you do not believe this earth will be regenerated, renovated or renewed by fire at the end?

This Earth will be "Dissolved" to its very "Elements" it will be a completely "New Creation" as scripture clearly teaches below

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

 

[ewq1938]

The problem is, I don't see any "elephant!" The Satanic rebellion *after* the Millennium is not a problem for me. My point is that *during the Millennium* there will be relative peace among nations, with Christian rule presiding. Satan is bound and unable to stir up international strife and Antichristian opposition to Christianity.

How long it takes for the sin-infected world to return to Antichristianity and international strife following the release of Satan is a matter for conjecture.

Another Amill hypocrisy. They somehow ignore that this post-Mill rebellion also happens after their Millennium.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I prefer to use "imprisonment". Binding is only part of what happens and Amill's latch onto it and rarely speak of the rest of what happens so they can isolate and distort what being bound with a chain means.

I know what you mean. There is this pseudo-connection between the "binding of the strong man" with the "chaining of Satan at the beginning of the Millennium." Some Church Fathers may have connected it by principle, but not as if they are the same thing or the same event. At least this is my view of it.

Irenaeus: Against Heresies (Book III, Ch. 8)
CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.8 (St. Irenaeus) #2

 

[Randy Kluth]

Another Amill hypocrisy. They somehow ignore that this post-Mill rebellion also happens after their Millennium.

Another great point! They place their "little season" of Satanic rebellion *within their Millennium,* or so it seems? Or do they somehow believe that the Millennium ends before Christ's 2nd Advent?

 

[WPM]

I prefer to use "imprisonment". Binding is only part of what happens and Amill's latch onto it and rarely speak of the rest of what happens so they can isolate and distort what being bound with a chain means.

1. Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
2. Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
3. Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
4. Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
5. Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
6. Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
7. Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
8. Can a prisoner in a prison have great wrath while in chains?
9. Does imprisonment mean immobility?
10. Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
11. Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
12. Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
13. Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

 

[WPM]

I know what you mean. There is this pseudo-connection between the "binding of the strong man" with the "chaining of Satan at the beginning of the Millennium." Some Church Fathers may have connected it by principle, but not as if they are the same thing or the same event. At least this is my view of it.

Irenaeus: Against Heresies (Book III, Ch. 8)
CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.8 (St. Irenaeus) #2

Ancient Chiliasts, like modern Amils and Postmillennialists, saw the redeemed Church as true Israel. There was nothing in the early Chiliasts writings that taught God had two peoples, elevated Israel or saw the restoration in any way of the old covenant apparatus.

Both ancient Amils and ancient Chiliasts opposed these fundamental Premil beliefs.

• The binding of Satan on a future millennial earth after the second coming is a modern-day Premil fundamental; ancient Chiliasm taught it happened through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.
• The elevation of natural Israel above all other ethnic groups is a modern-day Premil innovation; that was done away with at the cross in ancient Chiliasm. All nations were considered chosen equally by God in the old belief.
• The living and the dead will be raised when Jesus comes in ancient Chiliasm; in modern-day Premil they invent 3 groups of humans: saved, lost and a 3rd group unknown to Scripture too righteous to be destroyed and too wicked to be glorified.
• Modern-day Premil postpones Christ reigning over His enemies as God with all power in heaven and on earth until the second coming. They also make it a temporal limited earthly rule. Ancient Chiliasm has Christ reigning now in heaven over His enemies.
• Modern-day Premil promotes the renewal of the old abolished Jewish sacrifice system, ancient Chiliasm abhorred and renounced such a proposition.
• Modern-day Premil promotes the multiplication of carnal pleasures on its future new earth involving the abundant indulgence of feasting elect and the proliferation of procreation in the age to come. Most ancient Chiliasts rejected such a carnal proposition.
• Modern-day Premil advocate the release of Satan 1,000 years+ after the second coming. Ancient Chiliasm knew nothing about that.
• Modern-day Premil advocates the revival of Satanism 1,000 years+ after the second coming as the wicked in their billions overrun the Premil millennium. Ancient Chiliasm knew nothing about that.
• Modern-day Premil anticipates sin continuing unabated on a future millennial earth. Ancient Chiliasm knew nothing about that.
• Modern-day Premil anticipates corruption continuing unabated on a future millennial earth. Ancient Chiliasm knew nothing about that.
• Modern-day Premil anticipates the wicked continuing unabated on a future millennial earth. Ancient Chiliasm knew nothing about that.
• Modern-day Premil anticipates mortals continuing unabated on a future millennial earth. Ancient Chiliasm knew nothing about that.
• Modern-day Premil anticipates decay continuing unabated on a future millennial earth. Ancient Chiliasm knew nothing about that.
• Modern-day Premil anticipates the curse continuing unabated on a future millennial earth. Ancient Chiliasm knew nothing about that.
• Modern-day Premil anticipates Satan operating on a future new earth. Ancient Chiliasm knew nothing about that. It believed Satan was destroyed at the second coming.
• Modern-day Premil promotes the restoring of Israel back to their ancient borders and their place of favor over all other nations.

 

[Christian Gedge]

So, you do not believe this earth will be regenerated, renovated or renewed by fire at the end?

No, I believe our earth (and solar system) will be destroyed and replaced with a new.

 

[Davy]

I agree absolutely. The earth doesn’t just get fried on top. It gets completely dissolved!

That idea of course is not shown anywhere in God's Word, simply for the FACT that when Jesus returns, Scripture says His feet will TOUCH DOWN UPON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES EAST OF JERUSALEM...

Zech 14:3-5
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
KJV


How can Jesus return there to that Mount of Olives if Peter meant that the earth is turned into a literal asteroid belt on that "day of the Lord"?


BRETHREN IN CHRIST (not these Judaizers):
It doesn't take a lot of brain power to understand that Zechariah 14 Scripture of HOW Jesus returns to this earth in our near future. Even the Acts 1 Scripture reveals Jesus is to return "in like manner" as He ascended into Heaven from the Mount of Olives. So these Judaizers here (Jewish converts to Christ) try to act like they are smart, and yet they speak AGAINST plain Bible Scripture like the Zechariah 14 example that shows the EARTH is NOT totally destroyed on the "day of Lord", why would they work against this Bible evidence? Do they just have blinders in the 2 Peter 3 Scripture and can't think of any other Scripture like this Zechariah 14 example showing the earth WILL STILL EXIST after Jesus' future return? Either those Judaizers are still 'blinded' like Paul said in Romans 11, or they are lying through their teeth. You pick which.

 

[Davy]

1. Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
2. Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
3. Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
4. Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
5. Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
6. Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
7. Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
8. Can a prisoner in a prison have great wrath while in chains?
9. Does imprisonment mean immobility?
10. Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
11. Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
12. Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
13. Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

Looks like a fun game, so I'll chime in...

1. depends on how the word 'physical' is meant, because the angels also have the image of man yet without a flesh body. Even God has that image of man (Genesis 1:26-27). (Sounds like someone might need to go back and start reading in Genesis again.)

2. like in the movies? No! of course not. The "dragon" is just another title for Satan, which those who have read the Revelation 12:9 verse would immediately know! So haven't you read it?

3. no, nor was the one in Eden either. It was Satan, "that old serpent" is just one of Satan's many titles. We learn this in Rev.12:9 also.

4. could be, since God's Word describes a literal 'prison' in the heavenly dimension.

5. same thing for the chain.

6. could be.

7. a prison locked door would suffice.

8. nope. That's why when Jesus returns, Satan is locked in his pit prison which is why he won't be able to deceive the nations during that "thousand years". Common sense, what?

9. Yep!

10. Yep!

11. nope!

12. only in their cell.

13. nope!

During Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect, the only type of rebellion we are shown by the nations is per Zechariah 14 with their refusing to come up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship The KING and keep the feast of tabernacles.

 

[WPM]

Looks like a fun game, so I'll chime in...

1. depends on how the word 'physical' is meant, because the angels also have the image of man yet without a flesh body. Even God has that image of man (Genesis 1:26-27). (Sounds like someone might need to go back and start reading in Genesis again.)

2. like in the movies? No! of course not. The "dragon" is just another title for Satan, which those who have read the Revelation 12:9 verse would immediately know! So haven't you read it?

3. no, nor was the one in Eden either. It was Satan, "that old serpent" is just one of Satan's many titles. We learn this in Rev.12:9 also.

4. could be, since God's Word describes a literal 'prison' in the heavenly dimension.

5. same thing for the chain.

6. could be.

7. a prison locked door would suffice.

8. nope. That's why when Jesus returns, Satan is locked in his pit prison which is why he won't be able to deceive the nations during that "thousand years". Common sense, what?

9. Yep!

10. Yep!

11. nope!

12. only in their cell.

13. nope!

During Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect, the only type of rebellion we are shown by the nations is per Zechariah 14 with their refusing to come up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship The KING and keep the feast of tabernacles.

Looks like a fun game, so I'll chime in...

1. depends on how the word 'physical' is meant, because the angels also have the image of man yet without a flesh body. Even God has that image of man (Genesis 1:26-27). (Sounds like someone might need to go back and start reading in Genesis again.)

2. like in the movies? No! of course not. The "dragon" is just another title for Satan, which those who have read the Revelation 12:9 verse would immediately know! So haven't you read it?

3. no, nor was the one in Eden either. It was Satan, "that old serpent" is just one of Satan's many titles. We learn this in Rev.12:9 also.

4. could be, since God's Word describes a literal 'prison' in the heavenly dimension.

5. same thing for the chain.

6. could be.

7. a prison locked door would suffice.

8. nope. That's why when Jesus returns, Satan is locked in his pit prison which is why he won't be able to deceive the nations during that "thousand years". Common sense, what?

9. Yep!

10. Yep!

11. nope!

12. only in their cell.

13. nope!

During Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect, the only type of rebellion we are shown by the nations is per Zechariah 14 with their refusing to come up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship The KING and keep the feast of tabernacles.

Imprisonment and chains are constantly used in Scripture to describe spiritual restraint. This is seen in how the Holy Spirit depicts the wicked. For example, Satan is presented in Scripture as imprisoning his followers and refusing to release them from his spiritual prison. The Gentiles are repeatedly depicted in the OT as imprisoned and being in chains. We see this is Lamentations 3:33-34, Psalm 68:6, 79:10-11, 102:19-20, 107:8-16, 146:7-8, Isaiah 14:12-17, 42:6-7, 49:8-9, 58:6-12, 60:1-3, 61:1 and 58:6-12.

So, were the unsaved Gentiles literal "prisoners" walking about in this world in literal physical "chains" confined to a literal physical "prison" before the cross?

Premillennialists have little difficulty accepting the spiritual reality that the wicked today are bound by spiritual chains of sin and are imprisoned by their own lusts in Satan’s prison and yet are able to freely operate physically on this earth. One wonders why they should then struggle with the concept of the spiritual binding of spiritual beings. Why would they dismiss the fact that the kingdom of darkness has been placed in such chains since the first advent?

Imprisonment and chains are constantly used in Scripture to describe spiritual restraint. This is seen in how the Holy Spirit depicts the wicked. For example, Satan is presented in Scripture as imprisoning his followers and refusing to release them from his spiritual prison.

OT evidence of the figurative usage of chains and prison

Psalms 79:10-11 declares, “Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is their God? let him be known among the heathen in our sight by the revenging of the blood of thy servants which is shed. Let the sighing of the prisoner come before thee; according to the greatness of thy power preserve thou those that are appointed to die.”

Were all the heathen literal prisoners? Of course not!

Did this indicate they were immobile? Did this mean they could not kill, steal and destroy? Of course not!

Psalms 102:19-20 says, “For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the LORD behold the earth; To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death.”

Is the Psalmist talking about literal prisoners? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Psalms 107:8-16 describes, “Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! For he satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness. Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron; Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High: Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help. Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses. He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder. Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder.”

Were these chains literally iron? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Psalms 146:7-8 declares, “The LORD looseth the prisoners: The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous.”

Are these literal prisoners or is it describing the wicked?

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

 

[WPM]

Looks like a fun game, so I'll chime in...

1. depends on how the word 'physical' is meant, because the angels also have the image of man yet without a flesh body. Even God has that image of man (Genesis 1:26-27). (Sounds like someone might need to go back and start reading in Genesis again.)

2. like in the movies? No! of course not. The "dragon" is just another title for Satan, which those who have read the Revelation 12:9 verse would immediately know! So haven't you read it?

3. no, nor was the one in Eden either. It was Satan, "that old serpent" is just one of Satan's many titles. We learn this in Rev.12:9 also.

4. could be, since God's Word describes a literal 'prison' in the heavenly dimension.

5. same thing for the chain.

6. could be.

7. a prison locked door would suffice.

8. nope. That's why when Jesus returns, Satan is locked in his pit prison which is why he won't be able to deceive the nations during that "thousand years". Common sense, what?

9. Yep!

10. Yep!

11. nope!

12. only in their cell.

13. nope!

During Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect, the only type of rebellion we are shown by the nations is per Zechariah 14 with their refusing to come up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship The KING and keep the feast of tabernacles.

Lamentations 3:33-34 says, “For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth.”

Does Satan have all his devotees in a literal physical prison? Of course not!

Psalms 68:6 prophesied of those in darkness in the Old Testament: “he bringeth out those which are bound with chains: but the rebellious dwell in a dry land.”

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) curtailed by literal chains? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Isaiah 14:12-17 tells us, “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (helel or shining one), son of the morning (dawn)! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?”

Does Satan have all his devotees in a literal physical prison? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Isaiah 42:6-7 says, "I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) held in a literal prison house? Of course not!

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Isaiah 49:8-9 says, “Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.”

Does Satan have all his devotees in a literal physical prison? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Isaiah 58:6-12 asks, “Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.”

Were these chains literally iron? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Isaiah 60:1-3 says, “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.”

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) held in a literal prison house? Of course not!

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 61:1 says, “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound.”

Are those that Christ come to set free bound with physical chains? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

It is wrong to believe that Revelation 20 is a literal depiction describing the devil being physically chained, tossed into a physical abyss, and physically sealed so that he cannot deceive the nations anymore and yet still walk about this earth seeking whom he may devour. Amils don’t accept that this is physical language neither do they believe that spirits are physically chained and that they can be restrained by a literal prison. They believe that they are spiritually chained in a spiritual prison.

 

[ewq1938]

Another great point! They place their "little season" of Satanic rebellion *within their Millennium,* or so it seems? Or do they somehow believe that the Millennium ends before Christ's 2nd Advent?

They believe the little season happens after the thousand years. They just think this little season of rebellion only happens in Premill doctrine, suggested by their arguments. There is rebellion within their version of the Millennium, life right now and how it's been since the cross. Easily the worst and most failed version of Christ's Millennial rule. At least that rule is complete and without rebellion during the actual Millennium. The rebellion after is allowed by God as per Rev 20.

 

[WPM]

They believe the little season happens after the thousand years. They just think this little season of rebellion only happens in Premill doctrine, suggested by their arguments. There is rebellion within their version of the Millennium, life right now and how it's been since the cross. Easily the worst and most failed version of Christ's Millennial rule. At least that rule is complete and without rebellion during the actual Millennium. The rebellion after is allowed by God as per Rev 20.

More lies. Why can you not tell the truth? Are you scared of it? Why can you not address the truth? Because it exposes your misrepresentations. That is all you are left with. You have nothing on the Amil truth.

 

[Randy Kluth]

They believe the little season happens after the thousand years. They just think this little season of rebellion only happens in Premill doctrine, suggested by their arguments. There is rebellion within their version of the Millennium, life right now and how it's been since the cross. Easily the worst and most failed version of Christ's Millennial rule. At least that rule is complete and without rebellion during the actual Millennium. The rebellion after is allowed by God as per Rev 20.

My understanding, from some, is that the Antichrist, when he comes, will represent that "little season" of Satan. But yes, they think Christ's reign already started at the resurrection of Christ, and with the empowerment of the Church.

I don't fault them for believing this because Christians started believing this in the early centuries of the Church, and many good Christians have believed it ever since. I think what holds them in that position so strongly are the truths that are corollaries with that belief, namely belief in Christ's resurrection power, in his presence with us, and in his defeat of Satan at the cross. And they utterly reject any notion of a resuscitation of the Law of Moses, which I also agree with.

But I do believe that Dispensationalists found a key truth in the belief in Israel's latter day restoration, particularly when Christ returns with his saints. I do believe they're right that Israel will be restored. I just believe that many other nations called of God will be restored, as well.

I'm not a Dispensationalist, but I do appreciate their acceptance of the literal fulfillment of prophecies given to Israel. And as much as I agree with Reformation Theology, I think it is also important to embrace the idea of grace towards fallen Israel.

If I'm wrong in representing the position of Amills, I'd gladly accept correction on that? Thanks for the input. Some excellent points!

 

[ewq1938]

My understanding, from some, is that the Antichrist, when he comes, will represent that "little season" of Satan. But yes, they think Christ's reign already started at the resurrection of Christ, and with the empowerment of the Church.

I don't fault them for believing this because Christians started believing this in the early centuries of the Church, and many good Christians have believed it ever since. I think what holds them in that position so strongly are the truths that are corollaries with that belief, namely belief in Christ's resurrection power, in his presence with us, and in his defeat of Satan at the cross. And they utterly reject any notion of a resuscitation of the Law of Moses, which I also agree with.

But I do believe that Dispensationalists found a key truth in the belief in Israel's latter day restoration, particularly when Christ returns with his saints. I do believe they're right that Israel will be restored. I just believe that many other nations called of God will be restored, as well.

I'm not a Dispensationalist, but I do appreciate their acceptance of the literal fulfillment of prophecies given to Israel. And as much as I agree with Reformation Theology, I think it is also important to embrace the idea of grace towards fallen Israel.

If I'm wrong in representing the position of Amills, I'd gladly accept correction on that? Thanks for the input. Some excellent points!

My understanding is that most believe the AC and GT already came in the past.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Ancient Chiliasts, like modern Amils and Postmillennialists, saw the redeemed Church as true Israel. There was nothing in the early Chiliasts writings that taught God had two peoples, elevated Israel or saw the restoration in any way of the old covenant apparatus.

You'll find no argument from me that the Church Fathers generally held to Replacement Theology. I don't think Paul taught that, but when Israel didn't "pan out," then I think the Church Fathers began to follow Paul's denunciations of Israel under the Law, and went the "2nd Mile" by rejecting any notion of Israel's restoration, since their clinging so strongly to the Law would mean that their restoration would also be a restoration of observance of the Law.

And this is where I disagree with them. I don't think that Israel's restoration would mean a restoration of the observance of the Law. In the last days, final judgment will fall upon Israel for their rejection of Christ for their own cultural form of worship. They will be broken until a more malleable, pliable remnant will emerge and embrace Christ and repentance at his Coming.

Then Israel will be restored among those who embrace Christ, as opposed to a restoration of the Law as a system of worship. They will accept that the temple, the priesthood, and the sacrifices are gone forever, in favor of Christ's one historic sacrifice for the sins of all.

Both ancient Amils and ancient Chiliasts opposed these fundamental Premil beliefs.

• The binding of Satan on a future millennial earth after the second coming is a modern-day Premil fundamental; ancient Chiliasm taught it happened through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.
• The elevation of natural Israel above all other ethnic groups is a modern-day Premil innovation; that was done away with at the cross in ancient Chiliasm. All nations were considered chosen equally by God in the old belief.
• The living and the dead will be raised when Jesus comes in ancient Chiliasm; in modern-day Premil they invent 3 groups of humans: saved, lost and a 3rd group unknown to Scripture too righteous to be destroyed and too wicked to be glorified.
• Modern-day Premil postpones Christ reigning over His enemies as God with all power in heaven and on earth until the second coming. They also make it a temporal limited earthly rule. Ancient Chiliasm has Christ reigning now in heaven over His enemies.
• Modern-day Premil promotes the renewal of the old abolished Jewish sacrifice system, ancient Chiliasm abhorred and renounced such a proposition.
• Modern-day Premil promotes the multiplication of carnal pleasures on its future new earth involving the abundant indulgence of feasting elect and the proliferation of procreation in the age to come. Most ancient Chiliasts rejected such a carnal proposition.
• Modern-day Premil advocate the release of Satan 1,000 years+ after the second coming. Ancient Chiliasm knew nothing about that.
• Modern-day Premil advocates the revival of Satanism 1,000 years+ after the second coming as the wicked in their billions overrun the Premil millennium. Ancient Chiliasm knew nothing about that.
• Modern-day Premil anticipates sin continuing unabated on a future millennial earth. Ancient Chiliasm knew nothing about that.
• Modern-day Premil anticipates corruption continuing unabated on a future millennial earth. Ancient Chiliasm knew nothing about that.
• Modern-day Premil anticipates the wicked continuing unabated on a future millennial earth. Ancient Chiliasm knew nothing about that.
• Modern-day Premil anticipates mortals continuing unabated on a future millennial earth. Ancient Chiliasm knew nothing about that.
• Modern-day Premil anticipates decay continuing unabated on a future millennial earth. Ancient Chiliasm knew nothing about that.
• Modern-day Premil anticipates the curse continuing unabated on a future millennial earth. Ancient Chiliasm knew nothing about that.
• Modern-day Premil anticipates Satan operating on a future new earth. Ancient Chiliasm knew nothing about that. It believed Satan was destroyed at the second coming.
• Modern-day Premil promotes the restoring of Israel back to their ancient borders and their place of favor over all other nations.

We've visited this enough times that I don't even have to read it. It's just a re-entry of an old conversation. As I've said the "strong man" story had to do will Christ delivering demoniacs, and is relevant with Christ's cross only in the sense it revealed that Christ was the "Strong Man."

The event described in Rev 20 is the fulfillment of what Christ did at the Cross. It will take place by the binding and by the imprisonment of Satan for a thousand years so that a time of peace and Christianity will prevail. I'm afraid we'll have to continue to disagree on this. I understand your position.

 

[Randy Kluth]

My understanding is that most believe the AC and GT already came in the past.

Yes, I've heard that too, which is the Preterist position. Rome was the Antichrist, or something of that nature. I may have it confused...

If the Millennium can be viewed as metaphorical, then I suppose "after the thousand years" can be viewed as metaphorical, as well.? But it seems very inconsistent to me!

 

[Truth7t7]

My understanding, from some, is that the Antichrist, when he comes, will represent that "little season" of Satan. But yes, they think Christ's reign already started at the resurrection of Christ, and with the empowerment of the Church.

I don't fault them for believing this because Christians started believing this in the early centuries of the Church, and many good Christians have believed it ever since. I think what holds them in that position so strongly are the truths that are corollaries with that belief, namely belief in Christ's resurrection power, in his presence with us, and in his defeat of Satan at the cross. And they utterly reject any notion of a resuscitation of the Law of Moses, which I also agree with.

But I do believe that Dispensationalists found a key truth in the belief in Israel's latter day restoration, particularly when Christ returns with his saints. I do believe they're right that Israel will be restored. I just believe that many other nations called of God will be restored, as well.

I'm not a Dispensationalist, but I do appreciate their acceptance of the literal fulfillment of prophecies given to Israel. And as much as I agree with Reformation Theology, I think it is also important to embrace the idea of grace towards fallen Israel.

If I'm wrong in representing the position of Amills, I'd gladly accept correction on that? Thanks for the input. Some excellent points!

Randy the scripture below clearly teaches that when Jesus Christ returns, the resurrection takes place, at this time mortal puts on immortality as death is swallowed up in victory (Then Cometh The End)

Randy how do you continue to teach death isn't swallowed up in victory, as you teach a mortal millennial kingdom follows this second coming where mortal humans are dying physical death?

The scripture is simple, clear, and before your eyes, and you will continue to falsely teach contrary to God's words below "Why"?

Once a person is shown biblical truth, and if they teach contrary to truth presented, they become the false teacher and deceiver, it's that simple

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.