Question for truther

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Mungo

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Paul called the law, the law. Jesus called the law, the law. It is phony teachers that call the law, partial law.

I agree . I was just pointing out how the different numbering comes about.

But theefaith has a point. There is a moral law which precedes the Ten Commandments. It was incorporated into the Ten Commandments (at least the most important parts were) and continues, even when the Ten Commandments were abolished as part of the Old Mosaic Law.

It is still wrong to murder someone just as it was for Cain to murder Abel.
 

Truther

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I agree . I was just pointing out how the different numbering comes about.

But theefaith has a point. There is a moral law which precedes the Ten Commandments. It was incorporated into the Ten Commandments (at least the most important parts were) and continues, even when the Ten Commandments were abolished as part of the Old Mosaic Law.

It is still wrong to murder someone just as it was for Cain to murder Abel.
Sure, but the law is only added for transgression. The saint is not counted as a transgressor. We are under no Old Testament law. But the sinner is under every single part of the Law. The Law makes him a transgressor. It is for condemning purposes only.
 

theefaith

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I see what you think now. You think that if the priest skipped the tabernacle part of the law that it was not morally wrong. Lol

not sure what that is

moral law
Ceremonial law
Jurisdictional law
 

Truther

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The sacrifices in the Tabernacle were relevant for remission of sins. That is morality
 

Mungo

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Sure, but the law is only added for transgression. The saint is not counted as a transgressor. We are under no Old Testament law. But the sinner is under every single part of the Law. The Law makes him a transgressor. It is for condemning purposes only.

Are you saying that we can sin as much as we like and it doesn't affect our salvation?

We can steal, murder, etc. - not repent and still go to heaven?
 

Truther

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Are you saying that we can sin as much as we like and it doesn't affect our salvation?

We can steal, murder, etc. - not repent and still go to heaven?
No, I am saying the Holy Ghost is our teacher. Those that do not have the Holy Ghost need the Old Testament law to teach them. Did you know that the old testament is our school master. Are you still in school?
 

Mungo

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No, I am saying the Holy Ghost is our teacher. Those that do not have the Holy Ghost need the Old Testament law to teach them. Did you know that the old testament is our school master. Are you still in school?

You are not paying attention to what I said.
I agree we are not under the Mosaic Law.
But God's moral laws. what Catholics call God eternal moral law, or natural law, existed from Creation. And they exist today.
If the Ten Commandments had never been given they would still exist.

Mankind knew these laws from the beginning because they were made known to him by his conscience. Thus Cain knew that he had done wrong when he murdered Abel. We believe that man can know something about God and his moral laws from our nature and our consciences.

As the psalmist says:
The heavens are telling the glory of God; and the firmament proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours forth speech, and night to night declares knowledge. (Ps 19:1-2)

Paul says:
Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honour him as God or give thanks to him (Rom 1:20-21)

And
When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them (Rom 2:14-15)

The Catechism of the Council of Trent puts it this way
But, lest the people, aware of the abrogation of the Mosaic Law, may imagine that the precepts of the Decalogue are no longer obligatory, it should be taught that when God gave the Law to Moses, He did not so much establish a new code, as render more luminous that divine light by which the depraved morals and long continued perversity of man had at that time almost obscured. It is most certain that we are not bound to obey the Commandments because they were delivered by Moses, but because they are implanted in the hearts of all, and have been explained and confirmed by Christ our Lord

Thus God’s eternal moral law already exists before man is created and is embedded in our hearts. They are also embedded in the NT.
Take the example I gave of murder.
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him. (1Jn 3:15)
Also Mt 15:19, Mk 7:21, 1Pet 4:15, 1Jn 3:12 & 15, Refv 21:8

All the moral laws in the Ten Commandments are repeated in the NT and are applicable to all people.
The ceremonial part of the Ten Commandments (basically Saabbath keeping) are not repeated.
 

Truther

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You are not paying attention to what I said.
I agree we are not under the Mosaic Law.
But God's moral laws. what Catholics call God eternal moral law, or natural law, existed from Creation. And they exist today.
If the Ten Commandments had never been given they would still exist.

Mankind knew these laws from the beginning because they were made known to him by his conscience. Thus Cain knew that he had done wrong when he murdered Abel. We believe that man can know something about God and his moral laws from our nature and our consciences.

As the psalmist says:
The heavens are telling the glory of God; and the firmament proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours forth speech, and night to night declares knowledge. (Ps 19:1-2)

Paul says:
Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honour him as God or give thanks to him (Rom 1:20-21)

And
When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them (Rom 2:14-15)

The Catechism of the Council of Trent puts it this way
But, lest the people, aware of the abrogation of the Mosaic Law, may imagine that the precepts of the Decalogue are no longer obligatory, it should be taught that when God gave the Law to Moses, He did not so much establish a new code, as render more luminous that divine light by which the depraved morals and long continued perversity of man had at that time almost obscured. It is most certain that we are not bound to obey the Commandments because they were delivered by Moses, but because they are implanted in the hearts of all, and have been explained and confirmed by Christ our Lord

Thus God’s eternal moral law already exists before man is created and is embedded in our hearts. They are also embedded in the NT.
Take the example I gave of murder.
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him. (1Jn 3:15)
Also Mt 15:19, Mk 7:21, 1Pet 4:15, 1Jn 3:12 & 15, Refv 21:8

All the moral laws in the Ten Commandments are repeated in the NT and are applicable to all people.
The ceremonial part of the Ten Commandments (basically Saabbath keeping) are not repeated.
It is clear what you said but the Law was given to condemn.

One must keep that in mind.

Every part of the Law creates failure and the knowledge of sin.

It cannot be sliced into segments.

For instance, the OT tabernacle procession was the equivalent of obeying Acts 2:38 for us today.

So is "thou shalt not kill"...OT,(hate someone)....NT.

We are purified by water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost infilling/renewal today, not OT commands.

Mankind that is not born again will be judged out of the OT Law for disobeying every part of it, whether they can partially keep some of them or not.
 

Mungo

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Mankind that is not born again will be judged out of the OT Law for disobeying every part of it, whether they can partially keep some of them or not.
Well that might be your opinion but I disagree.