Questions For A Catholic

[Anastacia]

Anastacia, on 18 December 2010 - 11:30 PM, said:

Selene, your Catholic brother, aspen, says the Catholic church calls Mary the Mother of God, the Father. See aspen's post below:



Quote aspen: Spliting the divine and human aspects of Jesus is a heresy within the early church. It is not my "nerve" that is claiming this fact - it was defined as a heresy by First Council of Ephesus in 431

Really? Where did it say that in his quote below? According to his quote, I don't even see the name "Mary" in it.

Selene, what you have shown from your answer to my statement here....you have shown that you lie and twist the truth like you "Fathers," all your spiritual "Fathers" from the Catholic Church.

 

[Anastacia]

That's got me thinking about eh Ave. All it does is greet Mary and ask her to pray for us. Ora pro nobis pecatoribus nunc et in hora mortis nostrae: Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. We are all sinners and we all need praying for.

You are trying to make what the Catholics do with Mary, the mother of Jesus, as not quite so wrong. Catholics exalt Mary to the level of God. Catholics add unbiblical doctrine about Mary, such as she was born with out sin, that she was born by emaculate conception, and that after her death she was taken to heaven with her earthly body. Catholics call Mary "co-redeemer" and "Mediatrix." Catholics also call Mary "Queen of Heaven." Catholics say to pray through Mary to get to Jesus. We are to pray to Jesus to get to God! Catholics also make a statue of Mary and venerate it with flowers, crowns, and bowing, etc. Catholics exchange the word 'venerate' for 'worship,' and 'icon' to 'idol.' They do which God says not to do, they go against the Word of God.

 

[Templar81]

Scripture tells us not to make idols and worship them and no Catholic, Crthodox, Anglico-Cathoic, Maronite, Armenian, Ethiopian, Coptic or Celtic Christian would ever do so.

You say to a statue of a saint: "Your are my saviour and I give my life to you, please help me with my problems and keep me safe. Here is some flowers to gain your favour," then that woudl be wrong, so wrong.

You see we don't acknolwedge a saint as our God or our saviour so surely we can't be worshipping them even if we show them a lot of reverance.

Marksman
I have here for you a definition of the word veneration from the Oxford English dioctionary:

<LI id=m_en_gb0923390.001 class="sense sense-type-core scrollerBlock">regard with great respect; revere

Example
Philip of Beverley was venerated as a saint

There's nothing mentioned about worship is there?

 

[Anastacia]

Scripture tells us not to make idols and worship them and no Catholic, Crthodox, Anglico-Cathoic, Maronite, Armenian, Ethiopian, Coptic or Celtic Christian would ever do so.

You say to a statue of a saint: "Your are my saviour and I give my life to you, please help me with my problems and keep me safe. Here is some flowers to gain your favour," then that woudl be wrong, so wrong.

You see we don't acknolwedge a saint as our God or our saviour so surely we can't be worshipping them even if we show them a lot of reverance.

Marksman
I have here for you a definition of the word veneration from the Oxford English dioctionary:

<LI id=m_en_gb0923390.001 class="sense sense-type-core scrollerBlock">regard with great respect; revere

Example
Philip of Beverley was venerated as a saint

There's nothing mentioned about worship is there?

We are not to make statues. We are not to bow to them. We are not to venerate things made of stone and wood, nor silver and gold! Catholics command to bow to statues and pictures and relics. What don't you get about all that?

 

[Anastacia]

Quote: St George used to be my patron but now I have St James of Compostella, though George is still important to me.

Try using the "edit" button after posting. Is St. James the patron saint of compost heaps?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!! That's too funny marksman!!!

 

[Templar81]

I think we're going to ahve to agree to disagree ont he whole saints and relics thing. You say potato I say Potarto, you say tomato I say tomarto (that is how I really say it btw) let's call the whole thing off.

We've discussed saints and relics, the universal catholic church, apostallic sucession, transubstanciation, Exposition of the sacrament how about soemthing else?

Here is a list of topics I think it woudl be good to discuss:

Purgatory and Limbo
The immaculate conception of Mary
The role of Greek philosophy in doctrine
The catechism
Teh sacreament of Penance
Indulgences
First communion
Confirmation
Matrimony
Extremunction
Ordination
Monasticism
Opus Dei
Use of incense in worship
Liturgical calender
Structure of the mass
Clerical vestments
Catholics and celiac disease (gluten free waifers)
The role of the Pope
The prophecies of St Malachi
Christian Mystics (Like Julian Norwich, Thomas a Kempis or Catherine of Sienna)
ExcomunicationCatholic missionary work
Pro-lief movement
EWTN/Mother Angelica
The harrying of Hell
Sign of teh Cross
Genuflexion
Holy water
Catholic use of exorcism
Pilgriamge

These are just a few topic ideas that come to mind that it might be nice to dsicuss.

 

[Anastacia]

I think we're going to ahve to agree to disagree ont he whole saints and relics thing. You say potato I say Potarto, you say tomato I say tomarto (that is how I really say it btw) let's call the whole thing off.

We've discussed saints and relics, the universal catholic church, apostallic sucession, transubstanciation, Exposition of the sacrament how about soemthing else?

Here is a list of topics I think it woudl be good to discuss:

Purgatory and Limbo
The immaculate conception of Mary
The role of Greek philosophy in doctrine
The catechism
Teh sacreament of Penance
Indulgences
First communion
Confirmation
Matrimony
Extremunction
Ordination
Monasticism
Opus Dei
Use of incense in worship
Liturgical calender
Structure of the mass
Clerical vestments
Catholics and celiac disease (gluten free waifers)
The role of the Pope
The prophecies of St Malachi
Christian Mystics (Like Julian Norwich, Thomas a Kempis or Catherine of Sienna)
ExcomunicationCatholic missionary work
Pro-lief movement
EWTN/Mother Angelica
The harrying of Hell
Sign of teh Cross
Genuflexion
Holy water
Catholic use of exorcism
Pilgriamge

These are just a few topic ideas that come to mind that it might be nice to dsicuss.

Are you trying to show us all the unbiblical practices of the Catholic religion?

 

[Anastacia]

No they are not. The word "worship" in Greek does not mean singing songs. It means bowing down before the one who has captured you in battle and acknowledging your surrender to him and you becoming a slave to him.

When I worship God, I am surrendering to him as he has captured me by his love so I give myself over to his Lordship in my life. I don't need any so called "saint" to enable me to do it and I certainly don't need no dead statue to achieve that aim apart from the fact that you will not find ANYWHERE in scripture you are to bow before man made images of dead persons.

What you are doing is no different to what happens in pagan religions who worship and bow down before bits of wood and stone in the hope that they can keep the peace with non existent gods that they have invented for themselves.

Right on.

 

[Anastacia]

Cahter and verse: Revelations 8:4

And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

That is proof that they interceed for us.

Don't belittle me Marksman and don't make fun of St James, he's a better man than you. Compostela is Galicia in Northern Spain and has nothign to do with compost.



Well in case you havn't noticed we speak English here not first century Greek so no! veneration and bowing do not have to be synonymously bound up with worship.

Oh yes! it might appear pagan to the ignorant but that is because the devil created pagan religions to look similar to what is good and true as a means of decieving people. and Marskman has fallen for it hook, line and sinker.

Revelation 8:4 does not prove the Catholic doctrine of praying to dead saints and the dead saints praying for them.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

I'm curious about communion.

I've heard that Catholics believe that the bread becomes the actual flesh of Jesus and the wine becomes the actual blood of Jesus. Anyone care to elaborate?

 

[marksman]

Revelation 8:4 does not prove the Catholic doctrine of praying to dead saints and the dead saints praying for them.

Of course that is not really relevant to a catholic who just repeats what he or she is told. Catholics do not understand that you do not make a doctrine out of one verse of scripture. That is proof texting and no self respecting theologian would ever do that.

From what I have seen here, catholics do not place any credence on context. if a verse says what they want it to say that is good enough for them. The context here is people who have come out of the tribulation, which has not happened yet, so you cannot build a doctrine about what is going to happen and claim it is happening.

A text without a context is a pretext, not a doctrine.

Are you trying to show us all the unbiblical practices of the Catholic religion?

If he is not, he certainly has.

Cahter and verse: Revelations 8:4

Sorry, I don't have Cahters in my bible. Is that the catholic version?

Don't belittle me Marksman and don't make fun of St James, he's a better man than you. Compostela is Galicia in Northern Spain and has nothign to do with compost.

How do you know he is a better man than me? I would like some irrefutable evidence please. Otherwise retract the statement.

I have here for you a definition of the word veneration from the Oxford English dioctionary:

Since when has a dictionary been a commentary on the bible?

Well in case you havn't noticed we speak English here not first century Greek so no! veneration and bowing do not have to be synonymously bound up with worship.

That's got me thinking about eh Ave. All it does is greet Mary and ask her to pray for us. Ora pro nobis pecatoribus nunc et in hora mortis nostrae: Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. We are all sinners and we all need praying for.

In case you hadn't noticed we speak English here.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!! That's too funny marksman!!!

At least you have a sense of humour. More than I can say for other people on this forum. (musn't name names or they will get upset).

Cahter and verse: Revelations 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. That is proof that they interceed for us.

Apart from my other response about this, here is someone else who disagrees with you....

This sainthood is not an attainment, it is a state into which God in grace calls men; yet believers are called to sanctify themselves (consistently with their calling, 2_Tim_1:9), cleansing themselves from all defilement, forsaking sin, living a "holy" manner of life, 1_Pet_1:15; 2_Pet_3:11, and experiencing fellowship with God in His holiness. The saints are thus figuratively spoken of as "a holy temple," 1_Cor_3:17 (a local church); Eph_2:21 (the whole Church), cp. Eph_5:27; "a holy priesthood," 1_Pet_2:5; "a holy nation," 1_Pet_2:9.

SAINTS: a local church: the whole church: a holy priesthood: a holy nation.

Not a select few that the rcc decides are of a better quality than anyone else.

IN OTHER WORDS.....I AM A SAINT.

Oh yes! it might appear pagan to the ignorant but that is because the devil created pagan religions to look similar to what is good and true as a means of decieving people. and Marskman has fallen for it hook, line and sinker.

Nice try templar but so childish and immature. The only thing I have fallen for is Jesus, my Lord and my King, but then you wouldn't know anything about that as your lord and king is the pope.

 

[Templar81]

To whom it may concern
I'm not talking anymore with ignorant trolls who can't even be bothered to read a post properly and spend all their time making fun of type-o's especially when they have dyslexia. Very low isn't it but God is watching and he will sort the sheep from the goats and the chaff from thw wheat.


it is just going to give more ammunition to the trolls who think it is all some big joke.

I do believe that the bread and wine become Jesus' actuall body and blood because I believe that when Jesus said, "this is my boy," and "this is my blood," he really meant it. "He also said that we must eat the flesh of the son of man.

 

[Thankful 1]

To whom it may concern
I'm not talking anymore with ignorant trolls who can't even be bothered to read a post properly and spend all their time making fun of type-o's especially when they have dyslexia. Very low isn't it but God is watching and he will sort the sheep from the goats and the chaff from thw wheat.


it is just going to give more ammunition to the trolls who think it is all some big joke.

I do believe that the bread and wine become Jesus' actuall body and blood because I believe that when Jesus said, "this is my boy," and "this is my blood," he really meant it. "He also said that we must eat the flesh of the son of man.

I also believe that the Eucharist is truly the body and blood of Jesus. I believe that because the Holy Spirit told me it was.





(John 6:53-63) ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat? They said, Jesus replied: ‘I tell you most solemnly, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you will not have life in you. Anyone who does eat my flesh and drink my blood has eternal life, and I shall raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me and I live in him. As I, who am sent by the living father, myself draw life from the Father, so whoever eats me will draw life from me. This is the bread come down from heaven; not like the bread our ancestors ate; they are dead, but anyone who eats this bread will live for ever.’

He taught this doctrine at Capernaum, in the synagogue. After hearing it, many of his followers said, ‘This is intolerable language. How could anyone accept it? Jesus was aware that his followers were complaining about it and said, ‘Does this upset you? What if you should see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before? ‘It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh has nothing to offer. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.”





(John 6:63) “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing.”



I believe Jesus was talking about his spiritual body, he said that the flesh counts for nothing. Jesus is Spiritual, and one needs to eat of him to have life in him or her.

 

[TexUs]

From what I have seen here, catholics do not place any credence on context. if a verse says what they want it to say that is good enough for them.

I agree. This thread actually did worse for my views on Catholicism than helped it for this reason.

 

[Foreigner]

"From what I have seen here, catholics do not place any credence on context. if a verse says what they want it to say that is good enough for them." - marksman

-- It is almost painful to watch how some scripture is twisted to support certain beliefs they hold.

But it seems just as clear that these extra things that Catholics and Catholics alone as Christians practice seem to put an additiona layer between them and a Savior that loves them and gives other things/people more focus than they deserve, thus taking that focus off of Christ.

 

[Thankful 1]

"From what I have seen here, catholics do not place any credence on context. if a verse says what they want it to say that is good enough for them." - marksman

-- It is almost painful to watch how some scripture is twisted to support certain beliefs they hold.

But it seems just as clear that these extra things that Catholics and Catholics alone as Christians practice seem to put an additiona layer between them and a Savior that loves them and gives other things/people more focus than they deserve, thus taking that focus off of Christ.

Catholics don’t have a monopoly on twisting the written Word of God, to make it say what he or she wishes it to say. From my expierance Protestant Churches may use that tools to twist the Word even more than the Catholics.

Tools to Twist Bible​

I would like to share some of the tools people use to twist the written Word of God.



The tool often used is the Greek Word.



I believe the Holy Spirit was much involved with the people that translated the Greek scripture to the English version. I also believe they understood the Greek as well or better than the people who try to make people believe the English version is not accurate.



What a con and an elitist act it is to use a study of a language to try and convince others he or she is right because they have some special knowledge of a language.



Hyperbole is also used a lot. Jesus did not mean that it is just an exaggeration. Then people will go on and tell one what he really meant. Tell me how does anyone know unless Jesus told him or her? If Jesus told them he will tell us also right?



Metaphorically Is used much the same way as hyperbole, and the people who use this tool are of course the experts who can tell one just what Jesus meant. Wow they must be really intelligent, like us simple people can’t read, and understand.



Another tool often used is that part of the written Word is not talking to us. People don’t like what a letter is saying, so then if it is not speaking to them it can be ignored. They want us to believe that the bible is like our history books.



Separating our spirit from our bodies, as if one is not part of the other. This tool is used to make our actions not accountable. Our spirit don’t sin so only the body is held accountable. What is so unbelievable is many people buy into that garbage.



After all these tools have been exposed as such, then the last tool is to denigrate, defame, malign, and vilify the person who has exposed the twisting tools.

 

[mcorba]

It has also been painful to watch the infighting and spurious cutting remarks made against peoples beliefs -
where do some of you get off being so rude and self important in your views? Its astonishing to see.

Whether you feel you have been told personally, directly that you are Right and we are wrong, there is still no justification for hijacking a thread on another subject to use for your diatribes and criticisms. What is wrong with
these people? You really dont talk the talk, or act like a Christian, when you behave so rudely.

Christ was always humble and non -
judgemental, hanging out with the cripples, tax collectors and even prostitutes - what gives you the right to shoot
down our views? Sure, Christ got angry in the temple but that doesnt justify your rudeness, you are not discussing
ideas maturely, you are cutting people down despite their insistence that they have a right to their opinions!

If you want to be non-denominational, fine, we arent tellingn you that youre wrong, are we?
but that doesnt give you the right to tell others what to think.

Re transubstantiation - consider the words of Christ, and then critique what He said, ok?

Jesus said, "this is my boy," and "this is my blood..... go ahead, explain away!

Templar - there are people on here who should Dream that their only affliction is dyslexia....they could learn a lot about mature reasoning and appropriate, thoughtful debate by listening to how you make comments, and the others on here who have shown they have an open mind!!
:lol:

 

[TexUs]

Sorry but only someone Scripturally unsound would call the language of the Apostle's day a twisted tool.

 

[Foreigner]

"Catholics don’t have a monopoly on twisting the written Word of God, to make it say what he or she wishes it to say. From my expierance Protestant Churches may use that tools to twist the Word even more than the Catholics." - Thankful

-- From your experience? So if I same that "from my experience" just the opposite is true, does that negate your statement.
After all, it carries just as much weight as your statement.





"where do some of you get off being so rude and self important in your views? Its astonishing to see." - mcorba

-- That is a good question for those trying to justify Catholic practices/beliefs as well, no?
There have been those that have been brutally rude bordering on downright mean, but you can see who they are as they wind their way through all the threads. They have issues that go beyond this BB and so they should be taken in that context.
Show them love but if you can't then just ignore them.

 

[TexUs]

Sure, Christ got angry in the temple but that doesnt justify your rudeness, you are not discussing

ideas maturely, you are cutting people down despite their insistence that they have a right to their opinions!

The problem is that the Bible's opinion trumps human opinion every time, and that's where the disagreement lies, not with human opinions.

Pope... Catholics found this on human tradition, Protestants point to no evidence in the Bible.
Bowing... Catholics say it's for "respect", Protestants point to the Bible saying not to do it.
Idols... Catholics say it's an "image", Protestants point to the Bible saying not to do it.
Mary... Catholics say she's especially honored, Protestants point to no evidence in the Bible.
Praying to Dead... Catholics say it's OK, Protestants point to the Bible which repeatedly condemns any communication with any dead.

There's a conflict here, between Bible opinion vs human opinion. And therein lies the disagreement.

This conflict will only ever be resolved if both sides come to one side or the other. IE, either the Protestants need to say fallible human opinion is higher than that of Inspired Apostles, or the Catholics need to acknowledge the Inspired works are higher than fallible humans. One is laughable and the other is Scriptural.

If you want to be non-denominational, fine, we arent tellingn you that youre wrong, are we?

I don't know what claiming the RCC is the only denomination with the true fullness of the gospel would be. There's been numerous "RCC is holier than thou" type posts in here and it's rubbish. One hand doesn't seem to know what the other is doing.