Questions for sola Scripturas

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neophyte

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Apr 25, 2012
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1) Where in the Bible does it say that we should go by the Bible alone when it comes to all matters pertaining to faith and morals? Scripture verse?

2) Where in the Bible does it list the books which should be part of the Bible? Scripture verse?

3) Where in the Bible does it say that public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle? Scripture verse?

4) Do you believe the writer of the Gospel of Mark was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Yes or no?

5) If yes, where in the Bible does it say that the writer of the Gospel of Mark was insp ired by the Holy Spirit? Scripture verse?

6) Who did write the Gospel of Mark, and how do you know?

7) Do you believe the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews was inspired by the Holy Spirit?

8) If yes, where in the Bible does it tell us that the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Scripture verse?

9) Where in the Bible does it tell us who the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews was? Scripture verse?

10) If you don’t know who wrote the Letter to the Hebrews, then how do you know it is inspired?
 

Foreigner

New Member
Apr 14, 2010
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1) Where is the Bible does it state that Mary was taken up into heaven bodily?

2) Where in the Bible does it state that Mary remained a virgin and never had sex with Joseph?

3) Where in the Bible does it say specifically that she never had any other children than Jesus?

4) Where in the Bible does it justify the Catholic church advising that its members receive Indulgence?

5) Where in the Bible does/did it advise that Catholics should not eat meat of Fridays?

6) Where in the Bible does it justify the creation of religious orders of nuns?

7) Where in the Bible does it call for or justify the use of the Rosary?

8) Where in the Bible does it say that in order for someone to be considered a 'saint' it must be voted on by the Cardinals and approved by the Pope?

9) Where in the Bible does it teach about a place called Purgatory?

10) Where in the Bible does it teach that the Popes words are only infallible if he is speaking "ex cathedra?"



Wow, this is kind of fun - demanding others provide multiple answers for you just because you want them, already embracing the opinion that they won't be able to justify those answers.




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neophyte

Member
Apr 25, 2012
669
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Foreigner, you wrote the following;

1) Where is the Bible does it state that Mary was taken up into heaven bodily? My answer is- nowhere, but we as Catholics do not take Mary as our "sole rule of Faith" as you Protestants accept the Bible Alone as your only 'sole rule of Faith."'

So now answer my question of ; -1) Where in the Bible does it say that we should go by the Bible alone when it comes to all matters pertaining to faith and morals? Scripture verse?


2) Where in the Bible does it state that Mary remained a virgin and never had sex with Joseph? My answer- The Bible nowhere says that Mary had other children. Nor does the Bible ever refer to anyone besides Jesus as the "son of Mary ".
Now answer my question of -

2) Where in the Bible does it list the books which should be part of the Bible? Scripture verse?


3) Where in the Bible does it say specifically that she never had any other children than Jesus? My answer- Notice that in these passages , such as in Matt. 13, two of the four men mentioned by name and called "brothers of the Lord" are actually sons of another Mary, the wife of Cleophas [ James and Joseph; Matt, 27: 56; John 19; 25.

Now answer my question of-
3) Where in the Bible does it say that public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle? Scripture verse?



4) Where in the Bible does it justify the Catholic church advising that its members receive Indulgence? My answer is- Nowhere. Except that all authority was given from Jesus to His Apostolic / Universal Church [ Greek for Catholic ] to bind and loose .. and keys to St.Peter. The Church , His Apostolic Catholic Church was given all Authority from Jesus to Peter and the other apostles/ successors ; [ Luke 10: 16 ]

Now answer my question of-
4) Do you believe the writer of the Gospel of Mark was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Yes or no?


5) Where in the Bible does/did it advise that Catholics should not eat meat of Fridays? My answer is- Nowhere, it is not a doctrine but a discipline . These disciplines are changable [ Church authority granted by Jesus ] while doctrines [ Biblical ] are never changed or dropped.

Now answer my question of-
5) If yes, where in the Bible does it say that the writer of the Gospel of Mark was insp ired by the Holy Spirit? Scripture verse?


6) Where in the Bible does it justify the creation of religious orders of nuns? My answer- In the Bible we see women who were loyal to Jesus and gave up much to also follow Jesus, example, at the Cross, same today ,women following their vocations to teach about Jesus to help both sick and poor.

Now answer my question of-
6) Who did write the Gospel of Mark, and how do you know?

7) Where in the Bible does it call for or justify the use of the Rosary? My answer- Taken from the Bible ,the following words; " Hail Mary ,full of grace, the Lord is with thee; Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God [ Elizabeth called Mary the mother of my lord ] pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. [ St. Paul's instructions ;" I urge that supplications , prayers, intercessions, and thangsgiving be made for everyone, " for " this is good and pleasing to God our Savior" [ 1 Tim. 2: 1-4 ]

Now answer my question of -
7) Do you believe the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews was inspired by the Holy Spirit?


8) Where in the Bible does it say that in order for someone to be considered a 'saint' it must be voted on by the Cardinals and approved by the Pope? My answer is- found in 2 Cor. 5:20 .


Now answer my question of-
8) If yes, where in the Bible does it tell us that the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Scripture verse?


9) Where in the Bible does it teach about a place called Purgatory?My answer- Matt. 12;32; 1 Cor. 3: 14-15 ; Matt.5: 26; Psalm 42: 3 .and of course throughout 2 Maccabees 12: 39-46

Now answer my question of -
9) Where in the Bible does it tell us who the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews was? Scripture verse?



10) Where in the Bible does it teach that the Popes words are only infallible if he is speaking "ex cathedra?"Matt. 16: 15-19 all authority was given to Peter , the pope is the bishop of Rome , vicar of Christ on earth, successor of St. Peter.


Now answer my question-
10) If you don’t know who wrote the Letter to the Hebrews, then how do you know it is inspired?
 

prism

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C'mon, lets quit beating around the bush.
If Scripture is not the highest Word regarding Creation, The Fall, Faith, Torah, the Gospel, and Prophecies, then what other writing or Church Council or Ecclesia is???
 

Foreigner

New Member
Apr 14, 2010
2,583
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A chance for actual dialog. Outstanding.
Please note that none of my responses are flippant.


From Neophyte....
Foreigner, you wrote the following;

1) Where is the Bible does it state that Mary was taken up into heaven bodily? My answer is- nowhere, but we as Catholics do not take Mary as our "sole rule of Faith" as you Protestants accept the Bible Alone as your only 'sole rule of Faith."'

But unlike Biblical scripture that never changes, Catholic positions on certain issues DO.
Assumption of Mary bodily into heaven didn’t become official Catholic dogma until 1950. Before that, it wasn’t required for Catholics to believe that.
Strangely enough, in 495 AD Pope Gelasius issued a decree that teaching that Mary was taken into heaven bodily was heresy. In the sixth century Pope Hormisdas condemned those that taught Mary being taken to heaven bodily as heretics, as well. Who knows how long before the current position changes yet again?


So now answer my question of ; -1) Where in the Bible does it say that we should go by the Bible alone when it comes to all matters pertaining to faith and morals? Scripture verse?


I could answer along the same way that you and Aspen have answered questions on Catholicism in the past and simply state, “It doesn’t say anywhere that we shouldn’t” but that is not a valid statement, no matter who says it. I will simply mention that every single true Christian denomination I have encountered (including Catholicism) has stated that the Bible was divinely inspired and preserved. I have yet to see one area within “faith and morals” that the Bible does not cover….except things added years later that either claim authenticity although they have nothing to do with the Word that God helped ensure we have, or in some cases contradict what the Bible says.

Millions of people have found salvation and will be spending eternity with Christ because of the teachings of the Bible. I have been fortunate enough to hear men speak who have studied the Bible for decades and God still reveals new things to them. Strangely, though, these Great Men and Women of Jesus never find things that contradict within the Bible.



2) Where in the Bible does it state that Mary remained a virgin and never had sex with Joseph? My answer- The Bible nowhere says that Mary had other children. Nor does the Bible ever refer to anyone besides Jesus as the "son of Mary ".

So then, how do men within the Catholic church decide that this actually took place? What inspiration/divine insight/alternate documentation brought them to this belief?
And the Jesus-told-Peter-whatever-you-bind-on-earth-etc-etc-etc really doesn’t fly, since Peter would not have any idea if this was true.
Meanwhile, evidence to the contrary is found in scripture:

Matt 1:24-25 states When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded and took Mary as his wife. But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus”

And this is where I wonder how Catholics can imagine she remained a virgin. The inspired Word of God states Joseph have sex with her. “He did not have sexual relations with her UNTIL….”

When it comes down to what Scripture states flat out and the opinions of men who don’t use scripture to support an optinion, Scripture rightfully wins out.


Now answer my question of -

2) Where in the Bible does it list the books which should be part of the Bible? Scripture verse?


That would be the “Table of Contents.” Even the Catholic church believes the books that are in the Bible belong there. They simply want to add more.
It comes down to this…either you believe God ensured that what He wanted in the Bible is in there, or you don’t.
Is there perhaps a book in the Bible you think God failed to block?


3) Where in the Bible does it say specifically that she never had any other children than Jesus? My answer- Notice that in these passages , such as in Matt. 13, two of the four men mentioned by name and called "brothers of the Lord" are actually sons of another Mary, the wife of Cleophas [ James and Joseph; Matt, 27: 56; John 19; 25.


That’s swell, but Mark 3 states And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him. And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, seeking you.” And he answered them, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”

And the Greek word for ‘brothers’ used here does NOT mean “friend” “follower” “acquaintance” or “cousin.” And if the last line does not mean His actual brothers, then – applied equally – the ‘mother’ it is talking about could/should just as easily not be about Mary.

You keep asking “Scripture verse?” as if that is the gold standard to define the truth, and if I cannot provide one then my point is null and void.
Then why wouldn’t that be the exact same standard for proof that Jesus didn’t have brothers?


Now answer my question of-
3) Where in the Bible does it say that public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle? Scripture verse?


It doesn’t anywhere that I am aware of. But that does not automatically mean that every time a person, pastor, leader, Pope, or denomination states they have a “new revelation,” that it should be believed as accurate. And if that revelation detracts from the Bible, contradicts the Bible, causes a rift between believers that destroys harmoney and fellowship, or simply serves no purpose whatsoever, how can that be from God.

Many of the people who claim this revelation justify it with beliefs and tenants that already are already in disagreement or conflict with scripture.
If you want to claim something is okay with God but it is not supported by Scripture, knock yourself out. But unless you can do more than stating that it was agreed upon by men within your denomination alone, I would be cautious in how much faith I put in it (no pun intended).

Aspen tried to tell me a couple of days ago that the “Gnostic Gospel of Thomas” should be considered as something to study beyond the Bible.
This although that “gospel” states that Jesus murdered two children when he was a boy, struck adults blind, and is quoted as saying many things that were never recorded in the other four actual Gospels.


4) Where in the Bible does it justify the Catholic church advising that its members receive Indulgence? My answer is- Nowhere. Except that all authority was given from Jesus to His Apostolic / Universal Church [ Greek for Catholic ] to bind and loose .. and keys to St.Peter. The Church , His Apostolic Catholic Church was given all Authority from Jesus to Peter and the other apostles/ successors ; [ Luke 10: 16 ]


So you are using that Scripture to say that the Catholic church has the right to decide that there is going to have to be punishment for sin AFTER you die, and not only that but the Church has the right to help you shorten that time in post-death punishment through acts here on earth. None of this scripturally supported, mind you.
If someone truly wants to believe that, there really is nothing you can say to dissuade them. Facts and reason will mean nothing to them.
The same Catholics that claim this is right – based on no scriptural support – are the same ones that claim that Pre-Tribulation Rapture believers are wrong, even though they can find Scripture that can be read to at least appear to support that idea.
The same Catholics that actually sold these indulgences.


Now answer my question of-
4) Do you believe the writer of the Gospel of Mark was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Yes or no?



Why wouldn’t he have been? Or are you saying that God didn’t ensure that what He wanted included in the Bible was, and what He didn’t wasn’t?
Either you believe it or you don’t.


5) Where in the Bible does/did it advise that Catholics should not eat meat of Fridays? My answer is- Nowhere, it is not a doctrine but a discipline . These disciplines are changable [ Church authority granted by Jesus ] while doctrines [ Biblical ] are never changed or dropped.

So, Canon law was not doctrine?

· Canon 1250 All Fridays through the year and the time of Lent are penitential days and times throughout the entire Church.
· Canon 1251 Abstinence from eating meat or another food according to the prescriptions of the conference of bishops is to be observed on Fridays throughout the year unless they are solemnities; abstinence and fast are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and on the Friday of the Passion and Death of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
· Canon 1252 All persons who have completed their fourteenth year are bound by the law of abstinence; all adults are bound by the law of fast up to the beginning of their sixtieth year. Nevertheless, pastors and parents are to see to it that minors who are not bound by the law of fast and abstinence are educated in an authentic sense of penance.
· Canon 1253 It is for the conference of bishops to determine more precisely the observance of fast and abstinence and to substitute in whole or in part for fast and abstinence other forms of penance, especially works of charity and exercises of piety.
By the 12[sup]th[/sup] century, the practice was limited to Ash Wednesday and Friday. In 1966 Pope Paul VI decided that the various conference of bishops could decide which days to set aside for the abstinence from meat.
It is yet another example of Catholic rules regarding your faith that were written in stone…….until they weren’t anymore.

Now answer my question of-
5) If yes, where in the Bible does it say that the writer of the Gospel of Mark was insp ired by the Holy Spirit? Scripture verse?



If God allowed the book to be in the Bible then why would it not have been inspired?
Again, unless you feel that the Bible was divinely constructed and protected by God. Then there is little that can be said.

6) Where in the Bible does it justify the creation of religious orders of nuns? My answer- In the Bible we see women who were loyal to Jesus and gave up much to also follow Jesus, example, at the Cross, same today ,women following their vocations to teach about Jesus to help both sick and poor.

But those woman actually followed Him. They traveled with Him. Devout women can and do teach about Jesus, help both the sick and the poor, work in schools, volunteer in hospitals, even within the Catholic church. The question was, where does the Bible justify these orders?

Now answer my question of-
6) Who did write the Gospel of Mark, and how do you know?


I do not know. Why does it matter? Again, either God ensured the Bible contained what He desired or He didn’t.
Either He ensured that what He didn’t want did get in there, or He didn’t. What do you think?


7) Where in the Bible does it call for or justify the use of the Rosary? My answer- Taken from the Bible ,the following words; " Hail Mary ,full of grace, the Lord is with thee; Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God [ Elizabeth called Mary the mother of my lord ] pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. [ St. Paul's instructions ;" I urge that supplications , prayers, intercessions, and thangsgiving be made for everyone, " for " this is good and pleasing to God our Savior" [ 1 Tim. 2: 1-4 ]

Timothy urges prayer and supplication to Jesus, not His mother. As far as the Rosary goes, Catholics continue to try to sell the idea that the best way to glorify and uplift Jesus is to repeatedly and repetitively tell His earthly mom how cool her son is and how awesome it is that God selected her to give birth to Him, and asking Her to pray for you.

Five Decades in the average Rosary, and for every Our Father on a Decade, there are 10 Hail Marys. In the entire Rosary, the Hail Mary is said 53 times but the Our Father (the way Jesus HIMSELF actually taught us we should pray) is only said six times.
One would think that if you want to use a process where you focus on, honor and uplift Jesus….You would actually speak more to Jesus Himself than to His mother.
There is nothing in 1 Tim. 2:1-4 that indicates the Rosary fits the criteria of being “pleasing to God our Savior.”

Now answer my question of -
7) Do you believe the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews was inspired by the Holy Spirit?


I wold assume so. Do you have any indication that the writer wasn’t? Again, either you believe God ensured what He wanted ended up in the Bible or you don’t.


8) Where in the Bible does it say that in order for someone to be considered a 'saint' it must be voted on by the Cardinals and approved by the Pope? My answer is- found in 2 Cor. 5:20 .

Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.” – 2 Cor. 5:20

Then – according to your reasoning – unless the Cardinals and Pope agree that someone is a “saint,” they are not an “ambassador for Christ.”
Your reasoning falls apart when you read the first six words. That is present tense. People actually alive. Just how many LIVE people have the good gentlemen of the Vatican ever given sainthood to?
Translation: The scripture you provided does not apply.


Now answer my question of-
8) If yes, where in the Bible does it tell us that the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Scripture verse?


Again, if you do not believe that God …..etc. etc. etc.


9) Where in the Bible does it teach about a place called Purgatory?My answer- Matt. 12;32; 1 Cor. 3: 14-15 ; Matt.5: 26; Psalm 42: 3 .and of course throughout 2 Maccabees 12: 39-46


You greatly disappoint me Neophyte.
If you read those verses in First Corinthians and Matthew in context, by reading at least the first two verses and the last two verses with them, you see they – even by the greatest stretch – have absolutely NOTHING to do with purgatory. I invite others who made read this to look for themselves.

Psalm 42 is one of my all-time favorite Psalms. No one is sure if David wrote it or not, but it is about seeking and waiting on God in times of trouble.
The verse you provide, Psalm 42:3 says, My tears have been my food day and night, while they say to me all the day long, “Where is your God?””
Catholics do NOT teach that if you go to Purgatory, someone is going to be there while you are paying your penance saying “Where is your God?”

Maccabees teaches they were praying for people after they died. Setting aside the fact that this is from book not actually in the Bible, a scripture that actually IS in the Bible negates it: And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,”
True, that is from Hebrews and you appear to have a problem with Hebrews, but forgive me if I choose to put faith in a book found in the Bible instead of one that isn’t (for several reasons).


Now answer my question of -
9) Where in the Bible does it tell us who the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews was? Scripture verse?


I refer you back to the last two answers I gave to your questions on Hebrews.


10) Where in the Bible does it teach that the Popes words are only infallible if he is speaking "ex cathedra?"Matt. 16: 15-19 all authority was given to Peter , the pope is the bishop of Rome , vicar of Christ on earth, successor of St. Peter.


I know, I know whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
But that has absolutely nothing to do with my question.
Aspen says that unless the Pope give his opinion or pronounces something “ex cathedra” then it is simply – and I am quoting Aspen – “his opinion.”
I would point out that there are a number of things Popes in the past have declared Godly, required, or forbidden and claiming it is written in stone…..until another Pope comes along and changes it.

There was also a long litany of very, very bad Pope. Men with sin in their heart that committed crimes and perversions.
Was whatever they said “bound in heaven?”

Now answer my question-
10) If you don’t know who wrote the Letter to the Hebrews, then how do you know it is inspired?


Now see my last THREE answers on the topic of Hebrews.




.
 

Rach1370

New Member
Apr 17, 2010
1,801
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0
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Australia
A chance for actual dialog. Outstanding.
Please note that none of my responses are flippant.


From Neophyte....
Foreigner, you wrote the following;

1) Where is the Bible does it state that Mary was taken up into heaven bodily? My answer is- nowhere, but we as Catholics do not take Mary as our "sole rule of Faith" as you Protestants accept the Bible Alone as your only 'sole rule of Faith."'

But unlike Biblical scripture that never changes, Catholic positions on certain issues DO.
Assumption of Mary bodily into heaven didn’t become official Catholic dogma until 1950. Before that, it wasn’t required for Catholics to believe that.
Strangely enough, in 495 AD Pope Gelasius issued a decree that teaching that Mary was taken into heaven bodily was heresy. In the sixth century Pope Hormisdas condemned those that taught Mary being taken to heaven bodily as heretics, as well. Who knows how long before the current position changes yet again?


So now answer my question of ; -1) Where in the Bible does it say that we should go by the Bible alone when it comes to all matters pertaining to faith and morals? Scripture verse?


I could answer along the same way that you and Aspen have answered questions on Catholicism in the past and simply state, “It doesn’t say anywhere that we shouldn’t” but that is not a valid statement, no matter who says it. I will simply mention that every single true Christian denomination I have encountered (including Catholicism) has stated that the Bible was divinely inspired and preserved. I have yet to see one area within “faith and morals” that the Bible does not cover….except things added years later that either claim authenticity although they have nothing to do with the Word that God helped ensure we have, or in some cases contradict what the Bible says.

Millions of people have found salvation and will be spending eternity with Christ because of the teachings of the Bible. I have been fortunate enough to hear men speak who have studied the Bible for decades and God still reveals new things to them. Strangely, though, these Great Men and Women of Jesus never find things that contradict within the Bible.



2) Where in the Bible does it state that Mary remained a virgin and never had sex with Joseph? My answer- The Bible nowhere says that Mary had other children. Nor does the Bible ever refer to anyone besides Jesus as the "son of Mary ".

So then, how do men within the Catholic church decide that this actually took place? What inspiration/divine insight/alternate documentation brought them to this belief?
And the Jesus-told-Peter-whatever-you-bind-on-earth-etc-etc-etc really doesn’t fly, since Peter would not have any idea if this was true.
Meanwhile, evidence to the contrary is found in scripture:

Matt 1:24-25 states When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded and took Mary as his wife. But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus”

And this is where I wonder how Catholics can imagine she remained a virgin. The inspired Word of God states Joseph have sex with her. “He did not have sexual relations with her UNTIL….”

When it comes down to what Scripture states flat out and the opinions of men who don’t use scripture to support an optinion, Scripture rightfully wins out.


Now answer my question of -

2) Where in the Bible does it list the books which should be part of the Bible? Scripture verse?


That would be the “Table of Contents.” Even the Catholic church believes the books that are in the Bible belong there. They simply want to add more.
It comes down to this…either you believe God ensured that what He wanted in the Bible is in there, or you don’t.
Is there perhaps a book in the Bible you think God failed to block?


3) Where in the Bible does it say specifically that she never had any other children than Jesus? My answer- Notice that in these passages , such as in Matt. 13, two of the four men mentioned by name and called "brothers of the Lord" are actually sons of another Mary, the wife of Cleophas [ James and Joseph; Matt, 27: 56; John 19; 25.


That’s swell, but Mark 3 states And his mother and his brothers came, and standing outside they sent to him and called him. And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, seeking you.” And he answered them, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”

And the Greek word for ‘brothers’ used here does NOT mean “friend” “follower” “acquaintance” or “cousin.” And if the last line does not mean His actual brothers, then – applied equally – the ‘mother’ it is talking about could/should just as easily not be about Mary.

You keep asking “Scripture verse?” as if that is the gold standard to define the truth, and if I cannot provide one then my point is null and void.
Then why wouldn’t that be the exact same standard for proof that Jesus didn’t have brothers?


Now answer my question of-
3) Where in the Bible does it say that public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle? Scripture verse?


It doesn’t anywhere that I am aware of. But that does not automatically mean that every time a person, pastor, leader, Pope, or denomination states they have a “new revelation,” that it should be believed as accurate. And if that revelation detracts from the Bible, contradicts the Bible, causes a rift between believers that destroys harmoney and fellowship, or simply serves no purpose whatsoever, how can that be from God.

Many of the people who claim this revelation justify it with beliefs and tenants that already are already in disagreement or conflict with scripture.
If you want to claim something is okay with God but it is not supported by Scripture, knock yourself out. But unless you can do more than stating that it was agreed upon by men within your denomination alone, I would be cautious in how much faith I put in it (no pun intended).

Aspen tried to tell me a couple of days ago that the “Gnostic Gospel of Thomas” should be considered as something to study beyond the Bible.
This although that “gospel” states that Jesus murdered two children when he was a boy, struck adults blind, and is quoted as saying many things that were never recorded in the other four actual Gospels.


4) Where in the Bible does it justify the Catholic church advising that its members receive Indulgence? My answer is- Nowhere. Except that all authority was given from Jesus to His Apostolic / Universal Church [ Greek for Catholic ] to bind and loose .. and keys to St.Peter. The Church , His Apostolic Catholic Church was given all Authority from Jesus to Peter and the other apostles/ successors ; [ Luke 10: 16 ]


So you are using that Scripture to say that the Catholic church has the right to decide that there is going to have to be punishment for sin AFTER you die, and not only that but the Church has the right to help you shorten that time in post-death punishment through acts here on earth. None of this scripturally supported, mind you.
If someone truly wants to believe that, there really is nothing you can say to dissuade them. Facts and reason will mean nothing to them.
The same Catholics that claim this is right – based on no scriptural support – are the same ones that claim that Pre-Tribulation Rapture believers are wrong, even though they can find Scripture that can be read to at least appear to support that idea.
The same Catholics that actually sold these indulgences.


Now answer my question of-
4) Do you believe the writer of the Gospel of Mark was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Yes or no?



Why wouldn’t he have been? Or are you saying that God didn’t ensure that what He wanted included in the Bible was, and what He didn’t wasn’t?
Either you believe it or you don’t.


5) Where in the Bible does/did it advise that Catholics should not eat meat of Fridays? My answer is- Nowhere, it is not a doctrine but a discipline . These disciplines are changable [ Church authority granted by Jesus ] while doctrines [ Biblical ] are never changed or dropped.

So, Canon law was not doctrine?

· Canon 1250 All Fridays through the year and the time of Lent are penitential days and times throughout the entire Church.
· Canon 1251 Abstinence from eating meat or another food according to the prescriptions of the conference of bishops is to be observed on Fridays throughout the year unless they are solemnities; abstinence and fast are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and on the Friday of the Passion and Death of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
· Canon 1252 All persons who have completed their fourteenth year are bound by the law of abstinence; all adults are bound by the law of fast up to the beginning of their sixtieth year. Nevertheless, pastors and parents are to see to it that minors who are not bound by the law of fast and abstinence are educated in an authentic sense of penance.
· Canon 1253 It is for the conference of bishops to determine more precisely the observance of fast and abstinence and to substitute in whole or in part for fast and abstinence other forms of penance, especially works of charity and exercises of piety.
By the 12[sup]th[/sup] century, the practice was limited to Ash Wednesday and Friday. In 1966 Pope Paul VI decided that the various conference of bishops could decide which days to set aside for the abstinence from meat.
It is yet another example of Catholic rules regarding your faith that were written in stone…….until they weren’t anymore.

Now answer my question of-
5) If yes, where in the Bible does it say that the writer of the Gospel of Mark was insp ired by the Holy Spirit? Scripture verse?



If God allowed the book to be in the Bible then why would it not have been inspired?
Again, unless you feel that the Bible was divinely constructed and protected by God. Then there is little that can be said.

6) Where in the Bible does it justify the creation of religious orders of nuns? My answer- In the Bible we see women who were loyal to Jesus and gave up much to also follow Jesus, example, at the Cross, same today ,women following their vocations to teach about Jesus to help both sick and poor.

But those woman actually followed Him. They traveled with Him. Devout women can and do teach about Jesus, help both the sick and the poor, work in schools, volunteer in hospitals, even within the Catholic church. The question was, where does the Bible justify these orders?

Now answer my question of-
6) Who did write the Gospel of Mark, and how do you know?


I do not know. Why does it matter? Again, either God ensured the Bible contained what He desired or He didn’t.
Either He ensured that what He didn’t want did get in there, or He didn’t. What do you think?


7) Where in the Bible does it call for or justify the use of the Rosary? My answer- Taken from the Bible ,the following words; " Hail Mary ,full of grace, the Lord is with thee; Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God [ Elizabeth called Mary the mother of my lord ] pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. [ St. Paul's instructions ;" I urge that supplications , prayers, intercessions, and thangsgiving be made for everyone, " for " this is good and pleasing to God our Savior" [ 1 Tim. 2: 1-4 ]

Timothy urges prayer and supplication to Jesus, not His mother. As far as the Rosary goes, Catholics continue to try to sell the idea that the best way to glorify and uplift Jesus is to repeatedly and repetitively tell His earthly mom how cool her son is and how awesome it is that God selected her to give birth to Him, and asking Her to pray for you.

Five Decades in the average Rosary, and for every Our Father on a Decade, there are 10 Hail Marys. In the entire Rosary, the Hail Mary is said 53 times but the Our Father (the way Jesus HIMSELF actually taught us we should pray) is only said six times.
One would think that if you want to use a process where you focus on, honor and uplift Jesus….You would actually speak more to Jesus Himself than to His mother.
There is nothing in 1 Tim. 2:1-4 that indicates the Rosary fits the criteria of being “pleasing to God our Savior.”

Now answer my question of -
7) Do you believe the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews was inspired by the Holy Spirit?


I wold assume so. Do you have any indication that the writer wasn’t? Again, either you believe God ensured what He wanted ended up in the Bible or you don’t.


8) Where in the Bible does it say that in order for someone to be considered a 'saint' it must be voted on by the Cardinals and approved by the Pope? My answer is- found in 2 Cor. 5:20 .

Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.” – 2 Cor. 5:20

Then – according to your reasoning – unless the Cardinals and Pope agree that someone is a “saint,” they are not an “ambassador for Christ.”
Your reasoning falls apart when you read the first six words. That is present tense. People actually alive. Just how many LIVE people have the good gentlemen of the Vatican ever given sainthood to?
Translation: The scripture you provided does not apply.


Now answer my question of-
8) If yes, where in the Bible does it tell us that the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Scripture verse?


Again, if you do not believe that God …..etc. etc. etc.


9) Where in the Bible does it teach about a place called Purgatory?My answer- Matt. 12;32; 1 Cor. 3: 14-15 ; Matt.5: 26; Psalm 42: 3 .and of course throughout 2 Maccabees 12: 39-46


You greatly disappoint me Neophyte.
If you read those verses in First Corinthians and Matthew in context, by reading at least the first two verses and the last two verses with them, you see they – even by the greatest stretch – have absolutely NOTHING to do with purgatory. I invite others who made read this to look for themselves.

Psalm 42 is one of my all-time favorite Psalms. No one is sure if David wrote it or not, but it is about seeking and waiting on God in times of trouble.
The verse you provide, Psalm 42:3 says, My tears have been my food day and night, while they say to me all the day long, “Where is your God?””
Catholics do NOT teach that if you go to Purgatory, someone is going to be there while you are paying your penance saying “Where is your God?”

Maccabees teaches they were praying for people after they died. Setting aside the fact that this is from book not actually in the Bible, a scripture that actually IS in the Bible negates it: And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,”
True, that is from Hebrews and you appear to have a problem with Hebrews, but forgive me if I choose to put faith in a book found in the Bible instead of one that isn’t (for several reasons).


Now answer my question of -
9) Where in the Bible does it tell us who the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews was? Scripture verse?


I refer you back to the last two answers I gave to your questions on Hebrews.


10) Where in the Bible does it teach that the Popes words are only infallible if he is speaking "ex cathedra?"Matt. 16: 15-19 all authority was given to Peter , the pope is the bishop of Rome , vicar of Christ on earth, successor of St. Peter.


I know, I know whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
But that has absolutely nothing to do with my question.
Aspen says that unless the Pope give his opinion or pronounces something “ex cathedra” then it is simply – and I am quoting Aspen – “his opinion.”
I would point out that there are a number of things Popes in the past have declared Godly, required, or forbidden and claiming it is written in stone…..until another Pope comes along and changes it.

There was also a long litany of very, very bad Pope. Men with sin in their heart that committed crimes and perversions.
Was whatever they said “bound in heaven?”

Now answer my question-
10) If you don’t know who wrote the Letter to the Hebrews, then how do you know it is inspired?


Now see my last THREE answers on the topic of Hebrews.

Absolutely spot on...all of it. Well done and amen Foreigner.
 

neophyte

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You do realize that you know very little about the Teachings of Christ's Catholic Church,again your answers do not reflect the teachings of the Catholic Church. Let's take your amswers one at a time.

1]-
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was officially defined by Pope Pius IX in 1854. When Fundamentalists claim that the doctrine was "invented" at this time, they misunderstand both the history of dogmas and what prompts the Church to issue, from time to time, definitive pronouncements regarding faith or morals. They are under the impression that no doctrine is believed until the pope or an ecumenical council issues a formal statement about it.
Actually, doctrines are defined formally only when there is a controversy that needs to be cleared up or when the magisterium (the Church in its office as teacher; cf. Matt. 28:18–20; 1 Tim. 3:15, 4:11) thinks the faithful can be helped by particular emphasis being drawn to some already-existing belief. The definition of the Immaculate Conception was prompted by the latter motive; it did not come about because there were widespread doubts about the doctrine. In fact, the Vatican was deluged with requests from people desiring the doctrine to be officially proclaimed. Pope Pius IX, who was highly devoted to the Blessed Virgin, hoped the definition would inspire others in their devotion to her.

The Assumption


The doctrine of the Assumption says that at the end of her life on earth Mary was assumed, body and soul, into heaven, just as Enoch, Elijah, and perhaps others had been before her. It’s also necessary to keep in mind what the Assumption is not. Some people think Catholics believe Mary "ascended" into heaven. That’s not correct. Christ, by his own power, ascended into heaven. Mary was assumed or taken up into heaven by God. She didn’t do it under her own power.
The Church has never formally defined whether she died or not, and the integrity of the doctrine of the Assumption would not be impaired if she did not in fact die, but the almost universal consensus is that she did die. Pope Pius XII, in Munificentissimus Deus (1950), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life" (note the silence regarding her death), "was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven."
The possibility of a bodily assumption before the Second Coming is suggested by Matthew 27:52–53: "[T]he tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many." Did all these Old Testament saints die and have to be buried all over again? There is no record of that, but it is recorded by early Church writers that they were assumed into heaven, or at least into that temporary state of rest and happiness often called "paradise," where the righteous people from the Old Testament era waited until Christ’s resurrection (cf. Luke 16:22, 23:43; Heb. 11:1–40; 1 Pet. 4:6), after which they were brought into the eternal bliss of heaven.

No Remains


There is also what might be called the negative historical proof for Mary’s Assumption. It is easy to document that, from the first, Christians gave homage to saints, including many about whom we now know little or nothing. Cities vied for the title of the last resting place of the most famous saints. Rome, for example, houses the tombs of Peter and Paul, Peter’s tomb being under the high altar of St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome. In the early Christian centuries relics of saints were zealously guarded and highly prized. The bones of those martyred in the Coliseum, for instance, were quickly gathered up and preserved—there are many accounts of this in the biographies of those who gave their lives for the faith.
It is agreed upon that Mary ended her life in Jerusalem, or perhaps in Ephesus. However, neither those cities nor any other claimed her remains, though there are claims about possessing her (temporary) tomb. And why did no city claim the bones of Mary? Apparently because there weren’t any bones to claim, and people knew it. Here was Mary, certainly the most privileged of all the saints, certainly the most saintly, but we have no record of her bodily remains being venerated anywhere.

Complement to the Immaculate Conception


Over the centuries, the Fathers and the Doctors of the Church spoke often about the fittingness of the privilege of Mary’s Assumption. The speculative grounds considered include Mary’s freedom from sin, her Motherhood of God, her perpetual virginity, and—the key—her union with the salvific work of Christ.
The dogma is especially fitting when one examines the honor that was given to the ark of the covenant. It contained the manna (bread from heaven), stone tablets of the ten commandments (the word of God), and the staff of Aaron (a symbol of Israel’s high priesthood). Because of its contents, it was made of incorruptible wood, and Psalm 132:8 said, "Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the ark of thy might." If this vessel was given such honor, how much more should Mary be kept from corruption, since she is the new ark—who carried the real bread from heaven, the Word of God, and the high priest of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ.
Some argue that the new ark is not Mary, but the body of Jesus. Even if this were the case, it is worth noting that 1 Chronicles 15:14 records that the persons who bore the ark were to be sanctified. There would be no sense in sanctifying men who carried a box, and not sanctifying the womb who carried God himself! After all, wisdom will not dwell "in a body under debt of sin" (Wis. 1:4 NAB).
But there is more than just fittingness. After all, if Mary is immaculately conceived, then it would follow that she would not suffer the corruption in the grave, which is a consequence of sin [Gen. 3:17, 19].

Mary’s Cooperation


Mary freely and actively cooperated in a unique way with God’s plan of salvation (Luke 1:38; Gal. 4:4). Like any mother, she was never separated from the suffering of her Son (Luke 2:35), and Scripture promises that those who share in the sufferings of Christ will share in his glory (Rom. 8:17). Since she suffered a unique interior martyrdom, it is appropriate that Jesus would honor her with a unique glory.
All Christians believe that one day we will all be raised in a glorious form and then caught up and rendered immaculate to be with Jesus forever (1 Thess. 4:17; Rev. 21:27). As the first person to say "yes" to the good news of Jesus (Luke 1:38), Mary is in a sense the prototypical Christian, and received early the blessings we will all one day be given.

The Bible Only?


Since the Immaculate Conception and Assumption are not explicit in Scripture, Fundamentalists conclude that the doctrines are false. Here, of course, we get into an entirely separate matter, the question of sola scriptura, or the Protestant "Bible only" theory. There is no room in this tract to consider that idea. Let it just be said that if the position of the Catholic Church is true, then the notion of sola scriptura is false. There is then no problem with the Church officially defining a doctrine which is not explicitly in Scripture, so long as it is not in contradiction to Scripture.
The Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ to teach all nations and to teach them infallibly—guided, as he promised, by the Holy Spirit until the end of the world (John 14:26, 16:13). The mere fact that the Church teaches that something is definitely true is a guarantee that it is true (cf. Matt. 28:18-20, Luke 10:16, 1 Tim. 3:15).

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004
IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.


[background=#fff]

Today most Protestants are unaware of these early beliefs regarding Mary’s virginity and the proper interpretation of "the brethren of the Lord." And yet, the Protestant Reformers themselves—Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Ulrich Zwingli—honored the perpetual virginity of Mary and recognized it as the teaching of the Bible, as have other, more modern Protestants.






9 results


Immaculate Conception and Assumption


The Marian doctrines are, for Fundamentalists, among the most bothersome of the Catholic Church’s teachings. In this tract we’ll examine...

Mary: Ever Virgin


Most Protestants claim that Mary bore children other than Jesus. To support their claim, these Protestants refer to the biblical passages...

Mary: "Full of Grace"


The Fathers of the Church taught that Mary received a number of distinctive blessings in order to make her a more fitting mother for Christ...

Mary: Mother of God


Fundamentalists are sometimes horrified when the Virgin Mary is referred to as the Mother of God. However, their reaction often rests upon a...

The Rosary


The word rosary comes from Latin and means a garland of roses, the rose being one of the flowers used to symbolize the Virgin Mary. If you...

Saint Worship?


The word "worship" has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of...

Do Catholics Worship Statues?


"Catholics worship statues!" People still make this ridiculous claim. Because Catholics have statues in their churches, goes the accusation...

"Brethren of the Lord"


When Catholics call Mary the "Blessed Virgin," they mean she remained a virgin throughout her life. When Protestants refer to Mary as "...

Common Catholic Prayers


Prayer, the lifting of the mind and heart to God, plays an essential role in the life of a devout Catholic. Without a life of prayer, we...[/background]
 

Mungo

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But unlike Biblical scripture that never changes, Catholic positions on certain issues DO.
Assumption of Mary bodily into heaven didn’t become official Catholic dogma until 1950. Before that, it wasn’t required for Catholics to believe that.
Strangely enough, in 495 AD Pope Gelasius issued a decree that teaching that Mary was taken into heaven bodily was heresy. In the sixth century Pope Hormisdas condemned those that taught Mary being taken to heaven bodily as heretics, as well. Who knows how long before the current position changes yet again?

This is not true.

The “Decretum Gelasianum De Libris Recipiendis Et Non Recipiendis” is a list of writing that the Church accepted (recipiendis) and those it did not accept (non recipiendis).

First it lists those books that are canonical as agreed at the Council of Rome in 382.

Then it lists various writing that are also to be received (various early fathers)

Then it lists various apocryphal books which are to be rejected. Among those it includes “the book which is called the Assumption of holy Mary”.

Gelasius was not condemning the belief in the Assumption but apocryphal writings about the Assumption (of which there were many).

Similarly Pope Hormisdas simply confirmed the list of apocryphal and heretical writings that Pope Gelasius had rejected, which included the Transitus Maria writings.

6) Where in the Bible does it justify the creation of religious orders of nuns?

What exactly is wrong with religious orders of nuns?
 

Axehead

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Roman Catholicism is a "patchwork" gospel.



“…They have treated the Divine Scriptures recklessly and without fear. They have set aside the rule of ancient faith; and Christ they have not known. They do not endeavor to learn what the Divine Scriptures declare, but strive laboriously after any form of syllogism which may be devised to sustain their impiety.”

Had the Roman Catholic religion existed in the 4th century when Eusebius wrote his history of the young Christian Church, the above-cited quotation may well have been aimed straight at the Vatican. There in the Lateran's hallowed halls, the Scriptures have been treated with reckless abandon, downgraded to mere equality with the words of sinful men, twisted, added to, ignored, and all without fear of the mighty, eternal, King of Kings from whom those Scriptures emanated. Not only has Catholicism failed to observe what God's Word declares, it has tried every way to keep the trusting laity from obedience to that Word as well. Faced with ever increasing availability of printed Bibles in more and more native languages, the Council of Trent chalked up one more mark against itself and Catholicism by authorizing a Jesuit, Robert Bellarmine, to produce an extra-biblical publication which became known shortly thereafter as the Trent Catechism. In it were found no contradictions to Rome's numerous heresies. None of the Reformers' Scriptural doctrines were found there, either.

Many Catholic Catechisms have been published since that first one in the 16th century. All have been, and continue to be, tightly controlled purveyors of the Vatican-approved Catholic “party line.” They are extra-biblical, meaning they are not authorized - in fact, are condemned - by the Word of God. They offer, nonetheless, a fascinating study in how nimbly Rome skips through momentous doctrinal upheavals and changes, and how subtly they discourage the study of divine Scripture. My personal favorite has to do with papal infallibility which has been a declared article of faith only since the year AD 1870. In that 19th century, and prior to the First Vatican Council out of which came the infallibility declaration, a popular Catechism was one published in Scotland by Stephen Keenan, a Catholic priest. When first it appeared in 1851, it featured the following question and answer regarding papal infallibility;



Q. Must not Catholics believe the pope in himself to be infallible?
A. This is a Protestant invention; it is no article of Catholic faith.

In 1851, it seems, papal infallibility was nothing more than a Protestant “invention.” Catholics were not bound under pain of sin to believe it. It was not a doctrine; not an article of faith. The pope was as prone to err in that era as any other mortal soul. But when the Keenan Catechism was reprinted just 20 years later - one year after Pius IX “patched” papal infallibility into the Catholic Church repertoire of added doctrines not supported by Scripture - its treatment of the same subject had undergone a major face-lift.


Q. Is the pope infallible?
A. Yes, the pope is infallible.
Q. But some Catholics, before the Vatican Council, denied the infallibility of the pope, which was impugned by this very Catechism.
A. Yes, they did so under the usual reservation, insofar as they then could grasp the mind of the church, and subject to her (the church's) future definitions, thus implicitly accepting the dogma.

A most amazing organism is the Roman Catholic Church. One day a doctrine is not a doctrine. The next day it becomes a doctrine. All who denied it yesterday must believe it today, because their denial yesterday was with the reservation that Rome might change its mind today. Such unmitigated insolence on the part of those who claim custodial authority over God's divine Word. Who dares trust his or her immortal soul to a church whose “mind” can be changed any time expediency dictates? How can one ever be certain that today's already heretical doctrine of Mary as co-mediatrix with Christ, will not tomorrow become the doctrine of Mary co-redeemer, co-savior with our Lord, of all who “believe on her name?” How long before today's “infallible” pope declares himself not just “vicar of Christ” but Christ Himself? These are very real possibilities, not in the least far-fetched. For a church that is not restricted in its beliefs and declarations by the Word of God, is a church unpredictable; a church unreliable; an apostate church, no less deadly than the “Mystery Babylon” of Revelation.

Another Catechism - the “Full Catechism of The Catholic Religion” - presents an excellent study in the art of discouraging Bible reading. Authored by Joseph Deharbe, and re-published in 1979, the hardbound version sells in Catholic book stores for 17.95. In it, the Catholic Church is projected as the lone “pillar and ground of truth,” (Cf. 1 Tim 3:15) For this reason, the church allegedly cannot erroneously interpret the Word of God. Therefore, the individual Catholic is forbidden to interpret Scriptures, for two given reasons. First, no individual can understand the Scriptures like the Holy Spirit who gives the Vatican their true meanings. Second, “The Holy Scripture is a Divine and mysterious book,” containing certain things not easily understood. (Cf. 1 Pet 3:16) Only those possessing the “learning and piety” necessary should read the Bible, and then only approved translations with annotations endorsed by Rome.

R.A. Torrey, the great 19th century evangelist, commenting on the concept that the Bible is a difficult book and hard to be understood, expressed his belief like this:



“I am always suspicious of profound explanations of Scripture, explanations that require a scholar or philosopher to understand them. The Bible is a plain man's book. (Cf. Mat 11:25) In at least ninety-nine cases in a hundred the meaning of Scripture lies on the surface - the meaning that any simple-minded man, woman or child who really wants to know and obey the truth would see in it.”

When Vatican VIPS say in effect, “We only are the ones who compiled, preserved, and disseminated the Holy Scriptures, (none of which is true,) therefore we have the exclusive right to their interpretation,” they can be compared to the telegraph operator who, upon starting his shift, finds a message for a group of people already typed out and packaged for delivery. As he delivers it, he declares, “I'm the only one who can tell you folks what this message means.” In the case of God's divine Word, every born again believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit - the very author of the Scriptures - and by Him is empowered to interpret them quite correctly. (Cf. 1 John 2:27.)

It is apparent that Jesus did not consider His Word to be “mysterious” or difficult to understand, for he urged the unbelieving religious Jews to, “Search the Scriptures; for... they are they which testify of me.” (John 5:39) Why would our Lord urge people - especially unbelievers - to search into what He knew they would be unable to comprehend? Such would only engender confusion, and the Bible tells us God is not the author of confusion. (Cf. 1 Cor 14:33) In a similar vein, Luke expressed admiration for the Bereans to whom Paul and Silas preached the Gospel. Of them he said, “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” (Act 17:11) Does Rome think its laity is of lesser intelligence than the common folk of Berea in Paul's lifetime?


This second great heresy of Catholicism - that Rome is the sole custodian and interpreter of God's Word - is, as has already been noted, propagated very effectively through Catechisms and the teachings they contain. Add to this the personal influence of the clergy, the trust placed in the priest by his parishioners, the Rome-fostered illusion that only in the pastor resides the “oracles” of God, and what you end up with is a brainwashed flock, unable and unwilling to contest even the most outlandish claims and dogmas - the Marian heresies, for example. On page 27 of the 1994 Catechism, even the manner in which the laity is to accept Rome's teachings is dictated.


“Mindful of Christ's words to His apostles: 'He who hears you hears me,' the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.”

How clever of the Vatican to suggest in the above that “hearing” the teachings and directives of their pastors is equivalent to hearing the very words of our Lord. For this reason, of course, the laity is instructed to accept whatever they are taught submissively and without doubting, questioning, or disputation of any kind. Unfortunately, this is exactly how the Vatican's teachings are received by multi-millions of the Catholic faithful, (me, too, when I was one). It accounts for the stonewalling experienced by evangelical Christians who try to witness to these sadly misled folks. A Catechism statement - “…the Church…does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the Holy Scriptures alone,” should have Catholics jumping out of their seats shouting, “Why not!? Why would God leave important truths out of His Bible!?” But, instead of demanding answers to that and numerous similar questions, Catholics (me, too, when I was one) find it easier to “receive with docility” only what Rome chooses to feed them. What Rome chooses not to feed them, though, is critical to the eternal destination of their souls.

In the epistle of Paul to the Galatians, God's Word reveals two vitally important facts that are hidden from the Catholic faithful. “But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of (by) me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.” (Gal 1:11, 12) Fact the first: what Paul preached he received directly from the lips of our Lord, and there is not the slightest suggestion it was anything less than a complete Gospel. “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” (Gal 1:8, 9) Fact the second: to preach anything other than what Paul preached is twice cursed in God's Word. The oft “patched” gospel of Catholicism is not even close to the complete Gospel Paul and the other Apostles preached. Those who preach and teach it do so at their own peril.

In His wonderful “Olivet Discourse” our blessed Savior said, “And THIS Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations; and then shall the end come.” (Mat 24:14) Christ said, “THIS” Gospel, not an incomplete Gospel needing “patches” to perfect it. Later, toward the end of that famous sermon, Jesus said. “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” (Mat 24:35) “Sacred Tradition,” so-called by the Council of Trent bunch, has been granted equal status with the Word of God by the Vatican VIPS; but it was not so honored by our Lord. He said it was His Words that would not pass away; not His Words and the “Sacred Tradition” unveiled at Trent, Italy in the 16th century.

When a religion departs even partially from the written Logos - the Word as it is preserved in our Bibles - there is only one way it can go - astray. In each of the heresies discussed in this and following chapters, the Catholic church either has added to God's Word, twisted God's Word, taken away from it, or ignored it entirely, always to the detriment of its trusting members. Justification by faith alone in Christ's atoning sacrifice - the very foundation of the Gospel given to Paul directly by Jesus - has been replaced in Catholicism by a works-based, Tradition-driven theology not found anywhere in divine Scripture.

The Bible contains many warnings about false teachers and teachings, some of which have been referred to already. The one that follows seems especially apropos. “Now the SPIRIT speaketh expressly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils; speaking lies in hypocrisy: having their consciences seared with a hot iron; forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from meats.” (1 Tim 4:1-3) In AD 1079, the Catholic Church forbade priests to marry; commanded them to remain celibate throughout their lives. That order has never been rescinded; continues in force to this day, and has resulted in the kind of shocking immorality previously associated only with pagan religions of bygone days and the cults of this generation. Catholicism completed fulfillment of the prophecy in First Timothy - about the same time as the celibacy decree - when Rome commanded the faithful, under penalty of serious sin, to abstain from meat on all Fridays and certain “fast” days throughout the year.

According to Eusebius, historian of the early Christian church, certain of the Apostles were married, among them both Peter and Philip. The latter had four daughters “which did prophesy.” (Act 21:9) Obviously there was no such thing as celibacy in the early church. Nor were the early Christians bound to observe certain days of the week or abstain from certain foods. Says Eusebius in his Book 1, Chapter 4, the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob:



“…did not care about observing Sabbaths, nor do we. They did not avoid certain kinds of food, neither did they regard the other distinctions which Moses first delivered to their posterity to be observed as symbols; nor do Christians of the present day do such things.”

The early Christian church, predecessor to the Roman Catholic Church, was not under bondage to commandments not found in the Word of God. No one was placed under penalty of sin for missing a Lord's Day gathering. Bishops, deacons, elders, presbyters, could be married or not married as they themselves were led. No foods were forbidden them. No works were prescribed as necessary for salvation. “Sacred Tradition” was unheard of. The Scriptures alone contained their articles of faith, their doctrine. As a former Catholic who had no knowledge of the Word of God other than what Rome fed me, it now seems so appropriate to me that the longest chapter in the Bible is Psalm 119 which has 176 verses. Appropriate, because the entire psalm is focused on the wonder, the beauty, the comfort, the truth, the guidance, and the protection to be found in God's precious Word. “Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.” (Psa 119:11) “This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.” (Psa 119:50) “For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.” (Psa 119:89) “Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.” (Psa 119:105 “Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.” (Psa 119:114)

The Apostle, Peter, declared a bishop of Rome and the first pope by the Catholic church, believed what the Vatican seems not to believe. When a saddened Jesus asked the twelve, “Will you also go away?” it was Peter who expressed the group's sentiments. “Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.” (John 6:67, 68) They are found in every Bible, those wonderful words of eternal life. They are not found in so-called “Sacred Tradition,” Catechisms, papal “bulls” and encyclicals, pastoral observations or “Patchwork” doctrines. Because they are God's Word, they are found only in God's Word.

In these pages we have seen overwhelming evidence that Rome lies when it claims to be the original, the true, and the only church founded by Christ Jesus. Its “Patchwork gospel” is a very visible contradiction to that claim, for it is notthe Gospel given us by Jesus. It is not the Gospel preached by Paul, Peter, Philip, John, all the other Apostles, as well, and the early Christian Church. The Vatican's gospel is not the Gospel Jesus referred to in Matthew 24 as“THIS Gospel.”

Furthermore, in its organization, its doctrines, its liturgies, and its extensive statuary, the Roman Catholic Church is radically different from the church left on earth by Christ. Is it descended from apostolic Christianity? Of course, just as numerous other sects, faiths and denominations are rooted in the early church. But is it the one and only true church? Not according to history and the Word of God. That's simply one of Rome's many lies. Another is Rome's claim to have been appointed sole custodian and interpreter of the divine Scriptures. This is Catholicism's second great heresy and is as unsubstantiated as the first, 1) by God's Word, 2) by history, and, 3) by the early church saints. Hundreds of years before there was a Catholic church, the Old and New Testaments were compiled and ratified. Rome had nothing to do with their compilation or approval, and any authority Rome claims with respect to the Bible is self-assumed and has not come from Jesus.

In all truth, the Vatican's well-documented antipathy to the Bible, reflected in its record of banning, and/or discouraging the study of it, more than disqualifies Rome from any kind of say-so with respect to the divine Scriptures. Its expedient manufacture of an umbrella called “Sacred Tradition,” under which doctrines not found in the Bible can be introduced and justified, is just further proof of Rome's very active disdain for the Word of God, and its unswerving opposition to the Bible as the one and only rule of faith.

Would our Lord have entrusted His divine Word and its interpretation to a Vatican crowd that denies the historicity of Genesis by endorsing microbe-to-man evolution? Would He entrust His most precious Word to a Vatican crowd whose leaders say it's downright dangerous to seek for truth in the Word of God…who say the Bible is “…eminently dangerous to souls.?” Rome's audacity impugns the intelligence of a holy God, Creator of all things, for it implies the kind of stupidity that entrusts the wolf with the protection of the sheep.



“…I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.” (Rom 1:16, 17)

The Apostle, Paul, was not ashamed of the Gospel Christ bequeathed to His followers, the complete Gospel clearly set forth in the Bible. Why should popes be so afraid of it if their motives are pure?
The twin heresies looked at in this chapter are deeply implanted in the minds of most Roman Catholics, even those not-so-devout souls for whom a forty-minute Mass on Saturday night or Sunday morning is a sufficient amount of spirituality for the week. And so long as they accept Rome's false claims of exclusivity, antiquity, and absolute God-given authority, it's nearly impossible to help them achieve a saving relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. They literally are caught in Catholicism's “Tradition Trap,” and only an open-minded comparison of what they've been taught with what the Bible says can free them from it.

That in itself - gaining the Catholic's respect for God's Word - can prove difficult in the extreme and engender much disappointment. One missionary to a “Catholic Country” told me of instances where Catholics to whom he had given a King James Bible tore out a page right in front of him, rolled their tobacco in it, and smoked the resulting “cigarette,” smiling smugly at him the whole time. Fortunately, most evangelical Christians attempting to witness to a Catholic will not be subjected to a similar experience. But they are likely to get a lot of, “Ah, the Bible is just a bunch of words on paper!” and/or, “I don't care what the Bible says, that's not what the Catholic Church teaches.”

Catholics firmly believe that their church is the one and only true church founded by Jesus, but even if this were true, the Catholicism of today has very little in common with the Christian Church our Lord left to the Apostles. Today's Catholic Church is like the company that got started producing fine bread, but after a short time switched over to baking rum cakes. Likewise, the product Rome is marketing in this generation is a far cry from what early Christendom brought to the table. Some of the ingredients are the same, but the end product has an entirely different flavor. And, what bread-maker, converted to the production of rum cakes, would have the audacity to forbid others to produce fine bread? Rome is expert at claiming, forbidding, and condemning, but, as if ignoring an unsavory fact will make it go away, the Vatican maintains an uncharacteristic silence about the period of 800 plus years when pope after pope curtailed or banned entirely the reading of the Bible by the Catholic faithful. Nothing is said in Catholic educational institutions or the local parish church about the persecution - rather, the execution - of holy men of God who brought or sought to bring the Word of God to the general populace. Moreover, the rank immorality of popes, (those guardians of the Sacred Scriptures) that extended from the ninth to at least the 17th century is never mentioned in polite Catholic conversation.

In succeeding chapters, Catholic doctrines - all “patches” to God's Gospel - will be measured against Bible teachings, same as in this chapter. It's the way I was liberated from Rome's “Tradition Trap,” the way former priests and nuns also have come to a knowledge of the truth. I pray it will be useful to evangelical Christians in helping Catholic relatives, friends, co-workers, etc., come to a realization that it doesn't take a cardinal with a red hat, or a pope with a staff and crown to grasp the salvation message found in the Word of a loving and merciful God.

Get the book:
schroeder-1.jpg
 

veteran

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Shall we now bring in all sorts of traditions of men that Protestants have too?

Bottom line -----


2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
(KJV)
 

Mungo

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Q. Must not Catholics believe the pope in himself to be infallible?
A. This is a Protestant invention; it is no article of Catholic faith.
As usual half a truth, and half the truth is no truth at all.
The full answer of the 1851 Catechism was:
A: This is a Protestant invention; it is no article of the Catholic faith; no decision of his can oblige, under pain of heresy, unless it be received and enforced by the teaching body; that is, by the bishops of the Church.

Note also the question was “Must not Catholics believe the pope in himself to be infallible?

To which the answer is no, not then, not now. The key phrase is “in himself”.

It is the Church that been given a share in the infallibility of God which it can exercise when it makes solemn definitions of true doctrine in matters of faith and morals. The Pope in his office of Pastor and Teacher can exercise that charism of infallibility which Christ has gifted his Church.


P.S. your post 1851 version is wrong as well.


P.P.S. As to the rest of your rant. That is not the Catholic Church I know and belong to.
 

neophyte

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Roman Catholicism is a "patchwork" gospel.





“…They have treated the Divine Scriptures recklessly and without fear. They have set aside the rule of ancient faith; and Christ they have not known. They do not endeavor to learn what the Divine Scriptures declare, but strive laboriously after any form of syllogism which may be devised to sustain their impiety.”

Had the Roman Catholic religion existed in the 4th century when Eusebius wrote his history of the young Christian Church, the above-cited quotation may well have been aimed straight at the Vatican. There in the Lateran's hallowed halls, the Scriptures have been treated with reckless abandon, downgraded to mere equality with the words of sinful men, twisted, added to, ignored, and all without fear of the mighty, eternal, King of Kings from whom those Scriptures emanated. Not only has Catholicism failed to observe what God's Word declares, it has tried every way to keep the trusting laity from obedience to that Word as well. Faced with ever increasing availability of printed Bibles in more and more native languages, the Council of Trent chalked up one more mark against itself and Catholicism by authorizing a Jesuit, Robert Bellarmine, to produce an extra-biblical publication which became known shortly thereafter as the Trent Catechism. In it were found no contradictions to Rome's numerous heresies. None of the Reformers' Scriptural doctrines were found there, either.

Many Catholic Catechisms have been published since that first one in the 16th century. All have been, and continue to be, tightly controlled purveyors of the Vatican-approved Catholic “party line.” They are extra-biblical, meaning they are not authorized - in fact, are condemned - by the Word of God. They offer, nonetheless, a fascinating study in how nimbly Rome skips through momentous doctrinal upheavals and changes, and how subtly they discourage the study of divine Scripture. My personal favorite has to do with papal infallibility which has been a declared article of faith only since the year AD 1870. In that 19th century, and prior to the First Vatican Council out of which came the infallibility declaration, a popular Catechism was one published in Scotland by Stephen Keenan, a Catholic priest. When first it appeared in 1851, it featured the following question and answer regarding papal infallibility;




Q. Must not Catholics believe the pope in himself to be infallible?
A. This is a Protestant invention; it is no article of Catholic faith.

In 1851, it seems, papal infallibility was nothing more than a Protestant “invention.” Catholics were not bound under pain of sin to believe it. It was not a doctrine; not an article of faith. The pope was as prone to err in that era as any other mortal soul. But when the Keenan Catechism was reprinted just 20 years later - one year after Pius IX “patched” papal infallibility into the Catholic Church repertoire of added doctrines not supported by Scripture - its treatment of the same subject had undergone a major face-lift.



Q. Is the pope infallible?
A. Yes, the pope is infallible.
Q. But some Catholics, before the Vatican Council, denied the infallibility of the pope, which was impugned by this very Catechism.
A. Yes, they did so under the usual reservation, insofar as they then could grasp the mind of the church, and subject to her (the church's) future definitions, thus implicitly accepting the dogma.

A most amazing organism is the Roman Catholic Church. One day a doctrine is not a doctrine. The next day it becomes a doctrine. All who denied it yesterday must believe it today, because their denial yesterday was with the reservation that Rome might change its mind today. Such unmitigated insolence on the part of those who claim custodial authority over God's divine Word. Who dares trust his or her immortal soul to a church whose “mind” can be changed any time expediency dictates? How can one ever be certain that today's already heretical doctrine of Mary as co-mediatrix with Christ, will not tomorrow become the doctrine of Mary co-redeemer, co-savior with our Lord, of all who “believe on her name?” How long before today's “infallible” pope declares himself not just “vicar of Christ” but Christ Himself? These are very real possibilities, not in the least far-fetched. For a church that is not restricted in its beliefs and declarations by the Word of God, is a church unpredictable; a church unreliable; an apostate church, no less deadly than the “Mystery Babylon” of Revelation.

Another Catechism - the “Full Catechism of The Catholic Religion” - presents an excellent study in the art of discouraging Bible reading. Authored by Joseph Deharbe, and re-published in 1979, the hardbound version sells in Catholic book stores for 17.95. In it, the Catholic Church is projected as the lone “pillar and ground of truth,” (Cf. 1 Tim 3:15) For this reason, the church allegedly cannot erroneously interpret the Word of God. Therefore, the individual Catholic is forbidden to interpret Scriptures, for two given reasons. First, no individual can understand the Scriptures like the Holy Spirit who gives the Vatican their true meanings. Second, “The Holy Scripture is a Divine and mysterious book,” containing certain things not easily understood. (Cf. 1 Pet 3:16) Only those possessing the “learning and piety” necessary should read the Bible, and then only approved translations with annotations endorsed by Rome.

R.A. Torrey, the great 19th century evangelist, commenting on the concept that the Bible is a difficult book and hard to be understood, expressed his belief like this:




“I am always suspicious of profound explanations of Scripture, explanations that require a scholar or philosopher to understand them. The Bible is a plain man's book. (Cf. Mat 11:25) In at least ninety-nine cases in a hundred the meaning of Scripture lies on the surface - the meaning that any simple-minded man, woman or child who really wants to know and obey the truth would see in it.”

When Vatican VIPS say in effect, “We only are the ones who compiled, preserved, and disseminated the Holy Scriptures, (none of which is true,) therefore we have the exclusive right to their interpretation,” they can be compared to the telegraph operator who, upon starting his shift, finds a message for a group of people already typed out and packaged for delivery. As he delivers it, he declares, “I'm the only one who can tell you folks what this message means.” In the case of God's divine Word, every born again believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit - the very author of the Scriptures - and by Him is empowered to interpret them quite correctly. (Cf. 1 John 2:27.)

It is apparent that Jesus did not consider His Word to be “mysterious” or difficult to understand, for he urged the unbelieving religious Jews to, “Search the Scriptures; for... they are they which testify of me.” (John 5:39) Why would our Lord urge people - especially unbelievers - to search into what He knew they would be unable to comprehend? Such would only engender confusion, and the Bible tells us God is not the author of confusion. (Cf. 1 Cor 14:33) In a similar vein, Luke expressed admiration for the Bereans to whom Paul and Silas preached the Gospel. Of them he said, “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” (Act 17:11) Does Rome think its laity is of lesser intelligence than the common folk of Berea in Paul's lifetime?


This second great heresy of Catholicism - that Rome is the sole custodian and interpreter of God's Word - is, as has already been noted, propagated very effectively through Catechisms and the teachings they contain. Add to this the personal influence of the clergy, the trust placed in the priest by his parishioners, the Rome-fostered illusion that only in the pastor resides the “oracles” of God, and what you end up with is a brainwashed flock, unable and unwilling to contest even the most outlandish claims and dogmas - the Marian heresies, for example. On page 27 of the 1994 Catechism, even the manner in which the laity is to accept Rome's teachings is dictated.



“Mindful of Christ's words to His apostles: 'He who hears you hears me,' the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.”

How clever of the Vatican to suggest in the above that “hearing” the teachings and directives of their pastors is equivalent to hearing the very words of our Lord. For this reason, of course, the laity is instructed to accept whatever they are taught submissively and without doubting, questioning, or disputation of any kind. Unfortunately, this is exactly how the Vatican's teachings are received by multi-millions of the Catholic faithful, (me, too, when I was one). It accounts for the stonewalling experienced by evangelical Christians who try to witness to these sadly misled folks. A Catechism statement - “…the Church…does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the Holy Scriptures alone,” should have Catholics jumping out of their seats shouting, “Why not!? Why would God leave important truths out of His Bible!?” But, instead of demanding answers to that and numerous similar questions, Catholics (me, too, when I was one) find it easier to “receive with docility” only what Rome chooses to feed them. What Rome chooses not to feed them, though, is critical to the eternal destination of their souls.

In the epistle of Paul to the Galatians, God's Word reveals two vitally important facts that are hidden from the Catholic faithful. “But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of (by) me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.” (Gal 1:11, 12) Fact the first: what Paul preached he received directly from the lips of our Lord, and there is not the slightest suggestion it was anything less than a complete Gospel. “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” (Gal 1:8, 9) Fact the second: to preach anything other than what Paul preached is twice cursed in God's Word. The oft “patched” gospel of Catholicism is not even close to the complete Gospel Paul and the other Apostles preached. Those who preach and teach it do so at their own peril.

In His wonderful “Olivet Discourse” our blessed Savior said, “And THIS Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations; and then shall the end come.” (Mat 24:14) Christ said, “THIS” Gospel, not an incomplete Gospel needing “patches” to perfect it. Later, toward the end of that famous sermon, Jesus said. “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” (Mat 24:35) “Sacred Tradition,” so-called by the Council of Trent bunch, has been granted equal status with the Word of God by the Vatican VIPS; but it was not so honored by our Lord. He said it was His Words that would not pass away; not His Words and the “Sacred Tradition” unveiled at Trent, Italy in the 16th century.

When a religion departs even partially from the written Logos - the Word as it is preserved in our Bibles - there is only one way it can go - astray. In each of the heresies discussed in this and following chapters, the Catholic church either has added to God's Word, twisted God's Word, taken away from it, or ignored it entirely, always to the detriment of its trusting members. Justification by faith alone in Christ's atoning sacrifice - the very foundation of the Gospel given to Paul directly by Jesus - has been replaced in Catholicism by a works-based, Tradition-driven theology not found anywhere in divine Scripture.

The Bible contains many warnings about false teachers and teachings, some of which have been referred to already. The one that follows seems especially apropos. “Now the SPIRIT speaketh expressly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils; speaking lies in hypocrisy: having their consciences seared with a hot iron; forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from meats.” (1 Tim 4:1-3) In AD 1079, the Catholic Church forbade priests to marry; commanded them to remain celibate throughout their lives. That order has never been rescinded; continues in force to this day, and has resulted in the kind of shocking immorality previously associated only with pagan religions of bygone days and the cults of this generation. Catholicism completed fulfillment of the prophecy in First Timothy - about the same time as the celibacy decree - when Rome commanded the faithful, under penalty of serious sin, to abstain from meat on all Fridays and certain “fast” days throughout the year.

According to Eusebius, historian of the early Christian church, certain of the Apostles were married, among them both Peter and Philip. The latter had four daughters “which did prophesy.” (Act 21:9) Obviously there was no such thing as celibacy in the early church. Nor were the early Christians bound to observe certain days of the week or abstain from certain foods. Says Eusebius in his Book 1, Chapter 4, the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob:




“…did not care about observing Sabbaths, nor do we. They did not avoid certain kinds of food, neither did they regard the other distinctions which Moses first delivered to their posterity to be observed as symbols; nor do Christians of the present day do such things.”

The early Christian church, predecessor to the Roman Catholic Church, was not under bondage to commandments not found in the Word of God. No one was placed under penalty of sin for missing a Lord's Day gathering. Bishops, deacons, elders, presbyters, could be married or not married as they themselves were led. No foods were forbidden them. No works were prescribed as necessary for salvation. “Sacred Tradition” was unheard of. The Scriptures alone contained their articles of faith, their doctrine. As a former Catholic who had no knowledge of the Word of God other than what Rome fed me, it now seems so appropriate to me that the longest chapter in the Bible is Psalm 119 which has 176 verses. Appropriate, because the entire psalm is focused on the wonder, the beauty, the comfort, the truth, the guidance, and the protection to be found in God's precious Word. “Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.” (Psa 119:11) “This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.” (Psa 119:50) “For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.” (Psa 119:89) “Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.” (Psa 119:105 “Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.” (Psa 119:114)

The Apostle, Peter, declared a bishop of Rome and the first pope by the Catholic church, believed what the Vatican seems not to believe. When a saddened Jesus asked the twelve, “Will you also go away?” it was Peter who expressed the group's sentiments. “Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.” (John 6:67, 68) They are found in every Bible, those wonderful words of eternal life. They are not found in so-called “Sacred Tradition,” Catechisms, papal “bulls” and encyclicals, pastoral observations or “Patchwork” doctrines. Because they are God's Word, they are found only in God's Word.

In these pages we have seen overwhelming evidence that Rome lies when it claims to be the original, the true, and the only church founded by Christ Jesus. Its “Patchwork gospel” is a very visible contradiction to that claim, for it is notthe Gospel given us by Jesus. It is not the Gospel preached by Paul, Peter, Philip, John, all the other Apostles, as well, and the early Christian Church. The Vatican's gospel is not the Gospel Jesus referred to in Matthew 24 as“THIS Gospel.”

Furthermore, in its organization, its doctrines, its liturgies, and its extensive statuary, the Roman Catholic Church is radically different from the church left on earth by Christ. Is it descended from apostolic Christianity? Of course, just as numerous other sects, faiths and denominations are rooted in the early church. But is it the one and only true church? Not according to history and the Word of God. That's simply one of Rome's many lies. Another is Rome's claim to have been appointed sole custodian and interpreter of the divine Scriptures. This is Catholicism's second great heresy and is as unsubstantiated as the first, 1) by God's Word, 2) by history, and, 3) by the early church saints. Hundreds of years before there was a Catholic church, the Old and New Testaments were compiled and ratified. Rome had nothing to do with their compilation or approval, and any authority Rome claims with respect to the Bible is self-assumed and has not come from Jesus.

In all truth, the Vatican's well-documented antipathy to the Bible, reflected in its record of banning, and/or discouraging the study of it, more than disqualifies Rome from any kind of say-so with respect to the divine Scriptures. Its expedient manufacture of an umbrella called “Sacred Tradition,” under which doctrines not found in the Bible can be introduced and justified, is just further proof of Rome's very active disdain for the Word of God, and its unswerving opposition to the Bible as the one and only rule of faith.

Would our Lord have entrusted His divine Word and its interpretation to a Vatican crowd that denies the historicity of Genesis by endorsing microbe-to-man evolution? Would He entrust His most precious Word to a Vatican crowd whose leaders say it's downright dangerous to seek for truth in the Word of God…who say the Bible is “…eminently dangerous to souls.?” Rome's audacity impugns the intelligence of a holy God, Creator of all things, for it implies the kind of stupidity that entrusts the wolf with the protection of the sheep.




“…I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.” (Rom 1:16, 17)

The Apostle, Paul, was not ashamed of the Gospel Christ bequeathed to His followers, the complete Gospel clearly set forth in the Bible. Why should popes be so afraid of it if their motives are pure?
The twin heresies looked at in this chapter are deeply implanted in the minds of most Roman Catholics, even those not-so-devout souls for whom a forty-minute Mass on Saturday night or Sunday morning is a sufficient amount of spirituality for the week. And so long as they accept Rome's false claims of exclusivity, antiquity, and absolute God-given authority, it's nearly impossible to help them achieve a saving relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. They literally are caught in Catholicism's “Tradition Trap,” and only an open-minded comparison of what they've been taught with what the Bible says can free them from it.

That in itself - gaining the Catholic's respect for God's Word - can prove difficult in the extreme and engender much disappointment. One missionary to a “Catholic Country” told me of instances where Catholics to whom he had given a King James Bible tore out a page right in front of him, rolled their tobacco in it, and smoked the resulting “cigarette,” smiling smugly at him the whole time. Fortunately, most evangelical Christians attempting to witness to a Catholic will not be subjected to a similar experience. But they are likely to get a lot of, “Ah, the Bible is just a bunch of words on paper!” and/or, “I don't care what the Bible says, that's not what the Catholic Church teaches.”

Catholics firmly believe that their church is the one and only true church founded by Jesus, but even if this were true, the Catholicism of today has very little in common with the Christian Church our Lord left to the Apostles. Today's Catholic Church is like the company that got started producing fine bread, but after a short time switched over to baking rum cakes. Likewise, the product Rome is marketing in this generation is a far cry from what early Christendom brought to the table. Some of the ingredients are the same, but the end product has an entirely different flavor. And, what bread-maker, converted to the production of rum cakes, would have the audacity to forbid others to produce fine bread? Rome is expert at claiming, forbidding, and condemning, but, as if ignoring an unsavory fact will make it go away, the Vatican maintains an uncharacteristic silence about the period of 800 plus years when pope after pope curtailed or banned entirely the reading of the Bible by the Catholic faithful. Nothing is said in Catholic educational institutions or the local parish church about the persecution - rather, the execution - of holy men of God who brought or sought to bring the Word of God to the general populace. Moreover, the rank immorality of popes, (those guardians of the Sacred Scriptures) that extended from the ninth to at least the 17th century is never mentioned in polite Catholic conversation.

In succeeding chapters, Catholic doctrines - all “patches” to God's Gospel - will be measured against Bible teachings, same as in this chapter. It's the way I was liberated from Rome's “Tradition Trap,” the way former priests and nuns also have come to a knowledge of the truth. I pray it will be useful to evangelical Christians in helping Catholic relatives, friends, co-workers, etc., come to a realization that it doesn't take a cardinal with a red hat, or a pope with a staff and crown to grasp the salvation message found in the Word of a loving and merciful God.

Get the book:
schroeder-1.jpg

What a pile of rubbish, what is the name of this anti-Catholic book /author? You haven't a clue.
You don't understand [ concerning the pope/ Catholic Teachings ] the difference between infallible and impeccable. I must rush out , but when I get a chance I will easily refute your article from whatever the name of the book , as it has probably already been refuted by many competent theologians, church/secular historians since its publication.
So many anti-Catholic books out there with everyone of them proven wrong, because the actual unchangeable teachings [ doctrine ] has neither changed or have ever been added or subtracted in the past approximately 2000 years.
 

Axehead

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Shall we now bring in all sorts of traditions of men that Protestants have too?

Bottom line -----


2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
(KJV)

Absolutely! Bring them in. Let's shatter the idols and bring awareness to the sheep. Please post some. I will be watching for them.

I have been telling my Catholic friends that there are many Protestant traditions and doctrines that nullify the word of God, too. Our loyalties should only be to God and not things that make His Word of none effect.

I was reading an article today about Trinity Broadcasting Network and the inner turmoil due to sexual sin, greed and just complete hypocrisy and all the lawsuits that are pending. This is public news. They host shows like Billy Graham, Franklin Graham, The American Center for Law and Justice, only to give their false prosperity gospel validation.

From the Orange County Register
http://taxdollars.oc...ear-old/157357/


Jer 9:1 Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people!
Jer 9:2 Oh that I had in the wilderness a lodging place of wayfaring men; that I might leave my people, and go from them! for they be all adulterers, an assembly of treacherous men.
Jer 9:3 And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.

(read the rest of Jeremiah 9 if you get a chance)

Axehead

What a pile of rubbish, what is the name of this anti-Catholic book /author? You haven't a clue.
You don't understand [ concerning the pope/ Catholic Teachings ] the difference between infallible and impeccable. I must rush out , but when I get a chance I will easily refute your article from whatever the name of the book , as it has probably already been refuted by many competent theologians, church/secular historians since its publication.
So many anti-Catholic books out there with everyone of them proven wrong, because the actual unchangeable teachings [ doctrine ] has neither changed or have ever been added or subtracted in the past approximately 2000 years.

What you will try to do is what the RCC always tries to do and that is to slander the author. Or say he was "a disgruntled priest", or something like that. Hint: He was not a priest.

Have you read this book, Neo? It is excellent. I can send you one if you like.
FarFromROME1.jpg

This book contains the moving testimonies of fifty priests who found their way, by the grace of God, out of the labyrinth of Roman Catholic theology and practice into the light of the gospel of Christ. But this is not a narrowly polemical work, nor is its relevance limited to the ongoing controversy between Rome and the churches of the Reformation. The love and concern felt by the former priests for those they left behind, and their fervent desire that they too should experience the joy and peace of salvation in Christ are seen throughout. The wider relevance of the experiences described will also be felt in many contexts remote from Roman Catholicism where human pride and presumption have erected rival sources of authority between people and the Word of God, so obscuring the way of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, and in Christ alone.
 

Mungo

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Absolutely! Bring them in. Let's shatter the idols and bring awareness to the sheep. Please post some. I will be watching for them.

I have been telling my Catholic friends that there are many Protestant traditions and doctrines that nullify the word of God, too. Our loyalties should only be to God and not things that make His Word of none effect.

I was reading an article today about Trinity Broadcasting Network and the inner turmoil due to sexual sin, greed and just complete hypocrisy and all the lawsuits that are pending. This is public news. They host shows like Billy Graham, Franklin Graham, The American Center for Law and Justice, only to give their false prosperity gospel validation.

From the Orange County Register
http://taxdollars.oc...ear-old/157357/


Jer 9:1 Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people!
Jer 9:2 Oh that I had in the wilderness a lodging place of wayfaring men; that I might leave my people, and go from them! for they be all adulterers, an assembly of treacherous men.
Jer 9:3 And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.

(read the rest of Jeremiah 9 if you get a chance)

Axehead



What you will try to do is what the RCC always tries to do and that is to slander the author. Or say he was "a disgruntled priest", or something like that. Hint: He was not a priest.

Have you read this book, Neo? It is excellent. I can send you one if you like.
FarFromROME1.jpg

This book contains the moving testimonies of fifty priests who found their way, by the grace of God, out of the labyrinth of Roman Catholic theology and practice into the light of the gospel of Christ. But this is not a narrowly polemical work, nor is its relevance limited to the ongoing controversy between Rome and the churches of the Reformation. The love and concern felt by the former priests for those they left behind, and their fervent desire that they too should experience the joy and peace of salvation in Christ are seen throughout. The wider relevance of the experiences described will also be felt in many contexts remote from Roman Catholicism where human pride and presumption have erected rival sources of authority between people and the Word of God, so obscuring the way of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, and in Christ alone.

And for a different review of this book:

When Protestants become Catholic they unfailingly speak with respect and respect for their Protestant background. This shines through in books like _Surprised by Truth_, _Rome Sweet Home_, _Evangelical is Not Enough_, _Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic_ and other such stories of the journey from Protestantism to the fullness of Catholic Faith. One gets the sense of people who have truly grown in charity. In contrast, books by ex-Catholics who have hived off into some shrunken little sectarianism (such as this book) are always filled to the brim with an endless litany of bitterness like the diary of a petulant teenager. One gets just the opposite sense that the person writing this has dried up into a hard little kernel of nastiness that can only do one thing: play the tape of his grievances against the Catholic Church again and again. Not very attractive. Such writers have nothing to say or offer the world. This is the gospel of love? Spare me!
 

aspen

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Axehead - the real issue here is that the Reformation was an utter failure. Luther pointed out 95 errors in the Catholic Church, which were either repeated or replaced with new errors by the Reformers. Now, instead of a unified body, Protestantism is shattered into thousands of pieces, which continues to breakdown daily; many Protestants hate their churches as much as they Catholics; radical individualism, relativism, and identity through private ownership have corrupted the Protestant church to the same degree as the Medieval Catholic Church - the only difference is that Catholic doctrine was protected from corruption by God - the same cannot be said for Protestantism.
 

Axehead

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Actually, that is the furtherest thing from the issue. The real issue is that the Lord has never lost sight of those who belong to Him and those who belong to Him have not lost sight of Him, either. It's not about denominations, Aspen. It's about seeing Him and knowing Him, and more often than not one has to come out of man-made structures to do this.

Those who know Him recognize His life in others too, and His life is not controlled or dispensed by any religious organization on earth.

That book about the 50 former priests is really edifying. Not one of them display any bitterness in their testimony. They are all very grateful to the Lord.

Axehead

The Truth Set Us Free is also a very good book about 20 former Nuns and how they found Christ.


“Vatican Council II was completed in 1965. The Roman Catholic Church appeared to have changed her position towards Biblical believers. The Council had pronounced that they were now to be seen as ‘separated brethren’ (although it also reaffirmed the Council of Trent, which four hundred years earlier had declared Biblical believers to be heretics). [Ed.: Roman] Catholics could now ‘dialogue’ with them, enter their churches, and go to their Bible studies.

In the thirty years that have elapsed since then, much confusion has arisen both among Catholics and among Biblical believers as to where each stands today. This small volume brings the steady light of Scripture and the clear testimonies of twenty twentieth century women [Ed.: who are all former Roman Catholic nuns] to bear on this murky religious confusion of our times.

These women became nuns in Roman Catholic convents as [what they then believed to be] their finest means of serving God.
These testimonies are ‘inside stories’, intensely personal, wonderfully down-to-earth. They ask – and finally get the right answers to – some of the same questions that you yourself might ask. The solid promise of Holy God in Scripture is: ‘And ye shall seek Me, and find Me, when ye shall search for Me with all your heart.’ [Jeremiah 29:13]

This volume is modern testimony to that living promise.

“The TRUTH Set Us Free” will be of avid interest to:
  • Dedicated Roman Catholics who often do not know the realities of convent life.
  • ‘Lapsed’ Roman Catholics who have become discouraged by the practice of a religious faith which has not answered his or her inner emptiness and confusion.
  • Evangelicals who are being drawn more closely into ‘dialogue’ with Roman Catholics, unaware of the inner workings of that huge, seemingly mysterious system.”
I was deeply moved as I read the wonderful testimonies of these twenty former Roman Catholic nuns. These precious Christian ladies tell of the unspeakable joy they found when they learned the true gospel of“salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, on the authority of the Bible alone, so that God alone should have the glory” – a gospel that they never found in the convent! (The above quotation was taken from page 7 of the book.) I believe that all people who read this book will be richly blessed by the precious testimonies of these dear Christian ladies. Richard Bennett,



Twenty-Nuns.jpg
 

Rach1370

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Axehead - the real issue here is that the Reformation was an utter failure. Luther pointed out 95 errors in the Catholic Church, which were either repeated or replaced with new errors by the Reformers. Now, instead of a unified body, Protestantism is shattered into thousands of pieces, which continues to breakdown daily; many Protestants hate their churches as much as they Catholics; radical individualism, relativism, and identity through private ownership have corrupted the Protestant church to the same degree as the Medieval Catholic Church - the only difference is that Catholic doctrine was protected from corruption by God - the same cannot be said for Protestantism.

Actually Aspen, I disagree. The Reformation succeeded. And it was essential, not only for 'Protestants', but for the Catholic Church as well. The Reformation pulled attention towards Jesus, faith in Him and in His word to us. These are hardly bad things.
Now, you are correct that the Churches today are messed up...and I would include ALL churches...Catholic ones as well. The reason for this is not the Reformation...it's because Churches have people in them....fallen, sinful, prideful people. It's because people take their eyes off Jesus and focus on earthly things, like hierarchies, traditions and other people (and this includes all denominations...I'm not singling any out).
And that last statement...that God protected Catholic doctrine but not Protestant doctrine? Aspen...that is not true and not okay. I expected better from you.
 

IanLC

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I am of the Pentecostal persuasion. We have been rejected by both Catholics and mainline Protestant bodies. Regardless I know that we I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour, He saved me!
 

Axehead

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Actually Aspen, I disagree. The Reformation succeeded. And it was essential, not only for 'Protestants', but for the Catholic Church as well. The Reformation pulled attention towards Jesus, faith in Him and in His word to us. These are hardly bad things.
Now, you are correct that the Churches today are messed up...and I would include ALL churches...Catholic ones as well. The reason for this is not the Reformation...it's because Churches have people in them....fallen, sinful, prideful people. It's because people take their eyes off Jesus and focus on earthly things, like hierarchies, traditions and other people (and this includes all denominations...I'm not singling any out).
And that last statement...that God protected Catholic doctrine but not Protestant doctrine? Aspen...that is not true and not okay. I expected better from you.


The Reformation was successful in many areas, but God was not done with His Church. It was not a cure-all, but it had many successes and restored certain truths of God's Word to the Church. And if it wasn't a success, why did the Catholic Church initiate the Counter-Reformation?

Axehead
 

verzanumi24

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1) Where in the Bible does it say that we should go by the Bible alone when it comes to all matters pertaining to faith and morals? Scripture verse?

Where in the Bible does it say we can also go outside the Bible?

2) Where in the Bible does it list the books which should be part of the Bible? Scripture verse?


[font="Arial""]Since all the books of the Bible as we have it do not contradict each other we or should I say I know that all those books that make up the Bible were put together by men who were divinely moved by God to do so.[/font]

3) Where in the Bible does it say that public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle? Scripture verse?

Public revelation? What is that?

4) Do you believe the writer of the Gospel of Mark was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Yes or no?

Yes.

5) If yes, where in the Bible does it say that the writer of the Gospel of Mark was insp ired by the Holy Spirit? Scripture verse?

Luke 10:16 (NASB77)
[sup]16 [/sup]"The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me."


6) Who did write the Gospel of Mark, and how do you know?


[font="Arial""]Who else other than Mark and what does it matter anyway? Are you unable to tell when words spoken or written are inspired by God?[/font]

7) Do you believe the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews was inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Yes.

8) If yes, where in the Bible does it tell us that the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Scripture verse?

[font="Arial""]Is it not obvious to you that it is divinely inspired? To me it is very obvious that it is inspired.[/font]

9) Where in the Bible does it tell us who the writer of the Letter to the Hebrews was? Scripture verse?

Do you need to know the name of the individual in order to see that it is inspired?

10) If you don’t know who wrote the Letter to the Hebrews, then how do you know it is inspired?

1 Corinthians 2:10 (Darby)
[sup]10 [/sup]but God has revealed to us by his Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.