Alright, round 2 I guess. Ready?For those who don't know some background information can be found on my first thread of questions here.Any questions, I'll try my best to answer them if it helps you help me.As I said before I will tell you my perspective on things, but this isn't an I'm right, you're wrong thread. I just want you to understand where I'm coming from, so perhaps it will help.So without further ceremony:1.) This one sort of is revised from the last topic - Apart from not going to hell, why should I believe? How will it better my life, me as a person, what difference will it make?2.) If anyone here was ever a "non-believer" - what convinced you to believe?3.) Flipping one of my questions here; you all can see that most of this religious no longer makes sense to me so - Does science, evidence and proof and other kinds of logic make sense to you?4.) I've established that your logic/belief is that complex life needs to have a "creator" and therefore "there must be a God"... so where did God come from?5.) Since no-one has yet proved me with any evidence or proof for the exsistence of God, I'm still looking for this. Be aware of what I've already been told and what I've already said in the other thread though.6.) Just because I'm interested - what do you think is the most misintrupted line/section of the bible and why?7.) Howcome if I was a Christian before, even then I didn't see any actual evidence?Again thank you for your time, I appreciate it.
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- Thread starter Pildit
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1) If you believe, you'll come to realize that there is a God. And he'll fill that empty space in your soul. Your life will be enhanced.
2) Just from my own personal realization that there must be a God out there. I was agnostic so to speak. In my heart, I know that evolution was wrong. Also, everyone in here was a non-believer at one point in their life. You simply can not be born a Christian (physically).3) Yes, so much science out there proves that there is a God (for me). The fact that everything is so perfectly put together, it couldn't have been by chance. How the entire system of the Elements (refer to the Periodic table of elements) is perfect. No one can explain gravity, but it is here for a reason. etc.4) I have come to accept that the truth is too complex for our minds to comprehend. Take the paradox for example. We'll eventually be taught everything there is to learn, and more once the Millennial reign comes to be. It will be a "time of learning" where all secrets are opened up.5) It takes faith to take a step into the unknown. With faith, you come to experience God. The same evidence that there is to support God has been used to explain other things. In the end, Historical proof is my favorite proof.6) For me, the first thing that comes to mind is the entire creation in Genesis. People do not take it literally. I do.7) Did you have doubt? What did you do to pursue God? What did you believe?
(Pildit;39451)
1.) This one sort of is revised from the last topic - Apart from not going to hell, why should I believe? How will it better my life, me as a person, what difference will it make?
Maybe it might be worth also considering what difference it might make to someone else's life if you were a believer?
2.) If anyone here was ever a "non-believer" - what convinced you to believe?
Other believers' testimonies and passion for what they have and I still don't. I am jealous of what they have and want the same conviction. It must BE there because so MANY testify to the SAME thing!
3.) Flipping one of my questions here; you all can see that most of this religious no longer makes sense to me so - Does science, evidence and proof and other kinds of logic make sense to you?
Actually science tends to make more sense of the religion.
4.) I've established that your logic/belief is that complex life needs to have a "creator" and therefore "there must be a God"... so where did God come from?
Does it matter? He has to exist in order to even wonder where He came from - and if He exists that is way enough for me"
5.) Since no-one has yet proved me with any evidence or proof for the exsistence of God, I'm still looking for this. Be aware of what I've already been told and what I've already said in the other thread though.
You won't get it, No-one ever has. But what would be satisfactory evidence anyway? What you see? feel? touch? Have not these also been betrayals for humankind? What IS absolute proof? It is always going to be subjective!
6.) Just because I'm interested - what do you think is the most misintrupted line/section of the bible and why?
John 14:6 Causes great problems for many people, what exactly are the routes to Jesus...."
7.) Howcome if I was a Christian before, even then I didn't see any actual evidence?
Probably because God decided that faith not fact is crucial in his plan. Evidence would make it fact not faith. Would the fact of knowing impact change in you as much as struggling with faith?
Again thank you for your time, I appreciate it.
Not much help, I fear, Sorry!
1.) This one sort of is revised from the last topic - Apart from not going to hell, why should I believe? How will it better my life, me as a person, what difference will it make?
Maybe it might be worth also considering what difference it might make to someone else's life if you were a believer?
2.) If anyone here was ever a "non-believer" - what convinced you to believe?
Other believers' testimonies and passion for what they have and I still don't. I am jealous of what they have and want the same conviction. It must BE there because so MANY testify to the SAME thing!
3.) Flipping one of my questions here; you all can see that most of this religious no longer makes sense to me so - Does science, evidence and proof and other kinds of logic make sense to you?
Actually science tends to make more sense of the religion.
4.) I've established that your logic/belief is that complex life needs to have a "creator" and therefore "there must be a God"... so where did God come from?
Does it matter? He has to exist in order to even wonder where He came from - and if He exists that is way enough for me"
5.) Since no-one has yet proved me with any evidence or proof for the exsistence of God, I'm still looking for this. Be aware of what I've already been told and what I've already said in the other thread though.
You won't get it, No-one ever has. But what would be satisfactory evidence anyway? What you see? feel? touch? Have not these also been betrayals for humankind? What IS absolute proof? It is always going to be subjective!
6.) Just because I'm interested - what do you think is the most misintrupted line/section of the bible and why?
John 14:6 Causes great problems for many people, what exactly are the routes to Jesus...."
7.) Howcome if I was a Christian before, even then I didn't see any actual evidence?
Probably because God decided that faith not fact is crucial in his plan. Evidence would make it fact not faith. Would the fact of knowing impact change in you as much as struggling with faith?
Again thank you for your time, I appreciate it.
Not much help, I fear, Sorry!
Sorry for the sillyness of this question but please bear with me. Can you prove to me that air exists? You can't see it, taste it, touch it or smell it does this mean it does not exist. Certinally not for you can see, hear and feel its EFFECTS as it blows on a leaf or on your skin. Before I became a christian I would say "I'll belive it when I see it." A close friend said perhaps I should belive it then maybe I'll see it. I have been a christian for 20+ years and have expierenced too much not to belive from being healed of parallasys to deliverance from a serious drug addiction. I have seen the EFFECTS of GOD moving within others lives waching them being transformed as he breaths his spirit upon them. Remember Pildit, the gosple is simplistic it is man that complicates it Perhaps if you sincerely ask GOD to reveal himself to you he will and if you have then maybe you missed his simple responce we all do. Go back take another look you may find your answer directly in front of you. I pray GOD answers you with a great shout but don't be suprised if it is a still small wisper to your soul.
(Wakka)
1) If you believe, you'll come to realize that there is a God. And he'll fill that empty space in your soul. Your life will be enhanced.
Okay, you got me curious now. How will it be enhanced?
2) Just from my own personal realization that there must be a God out there. I was agnostic so to speak. In my heart, I know that evolution was wrong. Also, everyone in here was a non-believer at one point in their life. You simply can not be born a Christian (physically).
So how did you realise that there must be a God out there?
3) Yes, so much science out there proves that there is a God (for me). The fact that everything is so perfectly put together, it couldn't have been by chance. How the entire system of the Elements (refer to the Periodic table of elements) is perfect. No one can explain gravity, but it is here for a reason. etc.
How is it that because things are so perfectly put together, it couldn't be by chance? There could have been many mistakes before hand, things that didn't work together.
4) I have come to accept that the truth is too complex for our minds to comprehend. Take the paradox for example. We'll eventually be taught everything there is to learn, and more once the Millennial reign comes to be. It will be a "time of learning" where all secrets are opened up.
If you accept that the truth is too complex for our minds, does that mean that you're simply giving up on searching for the truth?
5) It takes faith to take a step into the unknown. With faith, you come to experience God. The same evidence that there is to support God has been used to explain other things. In the end, Historical proof is my favorite proof.
So provide me with some proof.
6) For me, the first thing that comes to mind is the entire creation in Genesis. People do not take it literally. I do.
Interesting, Genesis is quite a controversial one I think.
7) Did you have doubt? What did you do to pursue God? What did you believe?
- Never doubted until about 2 years ago.- Always then felt I had a "connection" with him, I read the bible, lived my life as correctly as I could, of course I made mistakes, everyone does.- I was a Christian, believed in God, Jesus, Jesus was the son of God, Jesus was my Savior. Anything else you want me to expand upon you'll have to ask specfically as I'm not sure what you want from this question.
1) If you believe, you'll come to realize that there is a God. And he'll fill that empty space in your soul. Your life will be enhanced.
Okay, you got me curious now. How will it be enhanced?
2) Just from my own personal realization that there must be a God out there. I was agnostic so to speak. In my heart, I know that evolution was wrong. Also, everyone in here was a non-believer at one point in their life. You simply can not be born a Christian (physically).
So how did you realise that there must be a God out there?
3) Yes, so much science out there proves that there is a God (for me). The fact that everything is so perfectly put together, it couldn't have been by chance. How the entire system of the Elements (refer to the Periodic table of elements) is perfect. No one can explain gravity, but it is here for a reason. etc.
How is it that because things are so perfectly put together, it couldn't be by chance? There could have been many mistakes before hand, things that didn't work together.
4) I have come to accept that the truth is too complex for our minds to comprehend. Take the paradox for example. We'll eventually be taught everything there is to learn, and more once the Millennial reign comes to be. It will be a "time of learning" where all secrets are opened up.
If you accept that the truth is too complex for our minds, does that mean that you're simply giving up on searching for the truth?
5) It takes faith to take a step into the unknown. With faith, you come to experience God. The same evidence that there is to support God has been used to explain other things. In the end, Historical proof is my favorite proof.
So provide me with some proof.
6) For me, the first thing that comes to mind is the entire creation in Genesis. People do not take it literally. I do.
Interesting, Genesis is quite a controversial one I think.
7) Did you have doubt? What did you do to pursue God? What did you believe?
- Never doubted until about 2 years ago.- Always then felt I had a "connection" with him, I read the bible, lived my life as correctly as I could, of course I made mistakes, everyone does.- I was a Christian, believed in God, Jesus, Jesus was the son of God, Jesus was my Savior. Anything else you want me to expand upon you'll have to ask specfically as I'm not sure what you want from this question.
(kalixx;39535)
Maybe it might be worth also considering what difference it might make to someone else's life if you were a believer?
That's a good question, as to the answer I've no idea. If you have an answer or suggestion of one though go ahead.My inclination is to say it wouldn't make any difference to someone elses life particuarly. I'd still be the same person, I didn't suddenly become a bad or horrible person through not believeing. Sure I might know different people as with anything that is in your life, is an interest of yours or your job, etc.
Other believers' testimonies and passion for what they have and I still don't. I am jealous of what they have and want the same conviction. It must BE there because so MANY testify to the SAME thing!
Just because a lot of people say the same thing or believe the same thing doesn't make it truth.
Actually science tends to make more sense of the religion.
It does?
Does it matter? He has to exist in order to even wonder where He came from - and if He exists that is way enough for me"
Yes, it does at least to me and at least right now because I keep getting this "nothing can't come from nothing", therefore God must have come from somewhere.
You won't get it, No-one ever has. But what would be satisfactory evidence anyway? What you see? feel? touch? Have not these also been betrayals for humankind? What IS absolute proof? It is always going to be subjective!
Perhaps it will always be subjective and perhaps not. I don't know I can't predict the future.My apologises I should have explained "absolute". Meaning something that cannot be explain in any other way other than God.
John 14:6 Causes great problems for many people, what exactly are the routes to Jesus...."
Interesting. Please do expand on this.
Probably because God decided that faith not fact is crucial in his plan. Evidence would make it fact not faith. Would the fact of knowing impact change in you as much as struggling with faith?
Many people have now said to me, if I believed I'd have my answers, but even when I did I had none. All I had was blind faith.Could you clarify the question in the latter half of that paragraph, I'm not quite sure what your asking, perhaps it's just how I'm reading it.
Not much help, I fear, Sorry!
No, no. I'm glad you replied.
Maybe it might be worth also considering what difference it might make to someone else's life if you were a believer?
That's a good question, as to the answer I've no idea. If you have an answer or suggestion of one though go ahead.My inclination is to say it wouldn't make any difference to someone elses life particuarly. I'd still be the same person, I didn't suddenly become a bad or horrible person through not believeing. Sure I might know different people as with anything that is in your life, is an interest of yours or your job, etc.
Other believers' testimonies and passion for what they have and I still don't. I am jealous of what they have and want the same conviction. It must BE there because so MANY testify to the SAME thing!
Just because a lot of people say the same thing or believe the same thing doesn't make it truth.
Actually science tends to make more sense of the religion.
It does?
Does it matter? He has to exist in order to even wonder where He came from - and if He exists that is way enough for me"
Yes, it does at least to me and at least right now because I keep getting this "nothing can't come from nothing", therefore God must have come from somewhere.
You won't get it, No-one ever has. But what would be satisfactory evidence anyway? What you see? feel? touch? Have not these also been betrayals for humankind? What IS absolute proof? It is always going to be subjective!
Perhaps it will always be subjective and perhaps not. I don't know I can't predict the future.My apologises I should have explained "absolute". Meaning something that cannot be explain in any other way other than God.
John 14:6 Causes great problems for many people, what exactly are the routes to Jesus...."
Interesting. Please do expand on this.
Probably because God decided that faith not fact is crucial in his plan. Evidence would make it fact not faith. Would the fact of knowing impact change in you as much as struggling with faith?
Many people have now said to me, if I believed I'd have my answers, but even when I did I had none. All I had was blind faith.Could you clarify the question in the latter half of that paragraph, I'm not quite sure what your asking, perhaps it's just how I'm reading it.
Not much help, I fear, Sorry!
No, no. I'm glad you replied.
(lastsecman;39583)
If you turn to God, God would turn to you....That is the only principle.
What do you suggest in turning to God?(dgc;39587)
Sorry for the sillyness of this question but please bear with me. Can you prove to me that air exists? You can't see it, taste it, touch it or smell it does this mean it does not exist. Certinally not for you can see, hear and feel its EFFECTS as it blows on a leaf or on your skin. Before I became a christian I would say "I'll belive it when I see it." A close friend said perhaps I should belive it then maybe I'll see it. I have been a christian for 20+ years and have expierenced too much not to belive from being healed of parallasys to deliverance from a serious drug addiction. I have seen the EFFECTS of GOD moving within others lives waching them being transformed as he breaths his spirit upon them. Remember Pildit, the gosple is simplistic it is man that complicates it Perhaps if you sincerely ask GOD to reveal himself to you he will and if you have then maybe you missed his simple responce we all do. Go back take another look you may find your answer directly in front of you. I pray GOD answers you with a great shout but don't be suprised if it is a still small wisper to your soul.
That's not a silly question, one that comes up in so many situations but air can be scientifically tested and proven to exist first of all and secondly, I see the effects of air but I've not seen the effects of God.The effects of the air must be proven to be just that effects of air, we could only do that by knowing air exists. Otherwise all we can do is rule everything else we do know of out.To some degree I accept that if something happens and it can't be proved to be anything else, it maybe God. The more completely impossible it seems and it can't be explained any other way, the more convinced I'll be.Healing is a different subject, I'm HIGHLY skeptical about healing - I was so, even when I was a Christian.I asked God this a few times over the past few months and actually did so last night again. So far nothing, but I'm still waiting.Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying oh well it MUST be this thing or that thing that proves it all too me... it could be one of many things it could be more than one thing.Thank you for your prayers.
If you turn to God, God would turn to you....That is the only principle.
What do you suggest in turning to God?(dgc;39587)
Sorry for the sillyness of this question but please bear with me. Can you prove to me that air exists? You can't see it, taste it, touch it or smell it does this mean it does not exist. Certinally not for you can see, hear and feel its EFFECTS as it blows on a leaf or on your skin. Before I became a christian I would say "I'll belive it when I see it." A close friend said perhaps I should belive it then maybe I'll see it. I have been a christian for 20+ years and have expierenced too much not to belive from being healed of parallasys to deliverance from a serious drug addiction. I have seen the EFFECTS of GOD moving within others lives waching them being transformed as he breaths his spirit upon them. Remember Pildit, the gosple is simplistic it is man that complicates it Perhaps if you sincerely ask GOD to reveal himself to you he will and if you have then maybe you missed his simple responce we all do. Go back take another look you may find your answer directly in front of you. I pray GOD answers you with a great shout but don't be suprised if it is a still small wisper to your soul.
That's not a silly question, one that comes up in so many situations but air can be scientifically tested and proven to exist first of all and secondly, I see the effects of air but I've not seen the effects of God.The effects of the air must be proven to be just that effects of air, we could only do that by knowing air exists. Otherwise all we can do is rule everything else we do know of out.To some degree I accept that if something happens and it can't be proved to be anything else, it maybe God. The more completely impossible it seems and it can't be explained any other way, the more convinced I'll be.Healing is a different subject, I'm HIGHLY skeptical about healing - I was so, even when I was a Christian.I asked God this a few times over the past few months and actually did so last night again. So far nothing, but I'm still waiting.Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying oh well it MUST be this thing or that thing that proves it all too me... it could be one of many things it could be more than one thing.Thank you for your prayers.
(Pildit;39592)
Okay, you got me curious now. How will it be enhanced?
You'll have true joy in your life. You won't care what will happen to you. God will bless you for things you do for Him. etc.
So how did you realise that there must be a God out there?
Most people put aside the thought of where everything originated from. Instead they're too busy with what they are doing in their lives. For myself, come to think of it, evolution would seem more far fetched than creationism. I pinch myself and think am I really real? Did life just appear out of no where? Look how far our civilization has come. We're going to the moon, visiting other planets, flying, traveling faster than sound travels. And then I think of evolution, and I think of the probabilities of how everything could have been made by chance. Not in our world, but EVERYTHING! Different universes, galaxies, the furthest planet from our own. It all functions by the same laws of gravity and physics. How on our planet we have a habitat/plants of the correct chemical composition to provide nutrients for us to survive. It's as if everything was made for us. The idea that this all happened by chance, is very, very, very far fetched.Then I look at a chance that there is a creator. I look at stories and accounts of miracles and supernatural things. Supernatural things happen during the presence of the Holy Spirit. And I compare creationism to the same as stated above about how things formed so perfectly. And it seems so much rational that a creator does exist.This is where I started experimenting with Christianity. If found it to be something different. The emptiness inside of me was replaced with the Holy Spirit. Something living. It was God.
How is it that because things are so perfectly put together, it couldn't be by chance? There could have been many mistakes before hand, things that didn't work together.
The real difference is that everything we have set IS perfect. Give me one thing that isn't perfect (other than death, duh, that can be explained through the Bible too). Physics is awesome. Thermal dynamics help us use energy. etc.What is better? Living the life thinking that we're here only reproduce, then we'll die. Or believing in a Creator. Having purpose in this life. And spending eternity with the Creator in the afterlife.
If you accept that the truth is too complex for our minds, does that mean that you're simply giving up on searching for the truth?
You can go ahead, but you'll have a massive headache.
So provide me with some proof.
Like archaeological accounts that help prove the Bible. For example, they believe they found Sodom and Gomorrah as well as Noah's ark. One recent archaeological find was an ancient Babylonian coin that had the name Nebuchadnezzar on it.
- Never doubted until about 2 years ago.- Always then felt I had a "connection" with him, I read the bible, lived my life as correctly as I could, of course I made mistakes, everyone does.- I was a Christian, believed in God, Jesus, Jesus was the son of God, Jesus was my Savior. Anything else you want me to expand upon you'll have to ask specifically as I'm not sure what you want from this question.
Have you been baptized in the Holy Spirit? It's like the next step from regular Christianity. It's not necessary to salvation, but if you want to experience the same things that Jesus or the Apostles of the early church did, then you get baptized in the Holy Spirit. That is where the supernatural stuff truly happens.
Note: Baptism in the Holy Spirit is different from being baptized in water.
Okay, you got me curious now. How will it be enhanced?
You'll have true joy in your life. You won't care what will happen to you. God will bless you for things you do for Him. etc.
So how did you realise that there must be a God out there?
Most people put aside the thought of where everything originated from. Instead they're too busy with what they are doing in their lives. For myself, come to think of it, evolution would seem more far fetched than creationism. I pinch myself and think am I really real? Did life just appear out of no where? Look how far our civilization has come. We're going to the moon, visiting other planets, flying, traveling faster than sound travels. And then I think of evolution, and I think of the probabilities of how everything could have been made by chance. Not in our world, but EVERYTHING! Different universes, galaxies, the furthest planet from our own. It all functions by the same laws of gravity and physics. How on our planet we have a habitat/plants of the correct chemical composition to provide nutrients for us to survive. It's as if everything was made for us. The idea that this all happened by chance, is very, very, very far fetched.Then I look at a chance that there is a creator. I look at stories and accounts of miracles and supernatural things. Supernatural things happen during the presence of the Holy Spirit. And I compare creationism to the same as stated above about how things formed so perfectly. And it seems so much rational that a creator does exist.This is where I started experimenting with Christianity. If found it to be something different. The emptiness inside of me was replaced with the Holy Spirit. Something living. It was God.
How is it that because things are so perfectly put together, it couldn't be by chance? There could have been many mistakes before hand, things that didn't work together.
The real difference is that everything we have set IS perfect. Give me one thing that isn't perfect (other than death, duh, that can be explained through the Bible too). Physics is awesome. Thermal dynamics help us use energy. etc.What is better? Living the life thinking that we're here only reproduce, then we'll die. Or believing in a Creator. Having purpose in this life. And spending eternity with the Creator in the afterlife.
If you accept that the truth is too complex for our minds, does that mean that you're simply giving up on searching for the truth?
You can go ahead, but you'll have a massive headache.
So provide me with some proof.
Like archaeological accounts that help prove the Bible. For example, they believe they found Sodom and Gomorrah as well as Noah's ark. One recent archaeological find was an ancient Babylonian coin that had the name Nebuchadnezzar on it.
- Never doubted until about 2 years ago.- Always then felt I had a "connection" with him, I read the bible, lived my life as correctly as I could, of course I made mistakes, everyone does.- I was a Christian, believed in God, Jesus, Jesus was the son of God, Jesus was my Savior. Anything else you want me to expand upon you'll have to ask specifically as I'm not sure what you want from this question.
Have you been baptized in the Holy Spirit? It's like the next step from regular Christianity. It's not necessary to salvation, but if you want to experience the same things that Jesus or the Apostles of the early church did, then you get baptized in the Holy Spirit. That is where the supernatural stuff truly happens.
(Wakka;39599)
You'll have true joy in your life. You won't care what will happen to you. God will bless you for things you do for Him. etc.
This gives me something to think about for many reasons.
The real difference is that everything we have set IS perfect. Give me one thing that isn't perfect (other than death, duh, that can be explained through the Bible too). Physics is awesome. Thermal dynamics help us use energy. etc.
My point was that things perhaps weren't always so perfect, it's perhaps taken a long time to get to the place where things work in sync with each other.
What is better? Living the life thinking that we're here only reproduce, then we'll die. Or believing in a Creator. Having purpose in this life. And spending eternity with the Creator in the afterlife.
Just because someone doesn't believe in God doesn't mean they lose all personal purpose in life.The problem is that people would love to believe that we don't merely die, people want to feel protected, safe and they want to think that there is always someone to listen and run to, even me. I wonder perhaps if it's this want that gives people the insane drive to only think there is only God - purely because it makes them feel better to think this way.
You can go ahead, but you'll have a massive headache.
I was asking YOU. Is it because you believe the truth is too complex for us to understand that you simply won't try?
Like archaeological accounts that help prove the Bible. For example, they believe they found Sodom and Gomorrah as well as Noah's ark. One recent archaeological find was an ancient Babylonian coin that had the name Nebuchadnezzar on it.
Note "believe", not proven (yet) and even so, proving that places in a book existed, doesn't all together prove the stories within them, the existence of Jesus or the existence of God.
Have you been baptized in the Holy Spirit? It's like the next step from regular Christianity. It's not necessary to salvation, but if you want to experience the same things that Jesus or the Apostles of the early church did, then you get baptized in the Holy Spirit. That is where the supernatural stuff truly happens.
Note: Baptism in the Holy Spirit is different from being baptized in water.
I was Christened as a baby.
You'll have true joy in your life. You won't care what will happen to you. God will bless you for things you do for Him. etc.
This gives me something to think about for many reasons.
The real difference is that everything we have set IS perfect. Give me one thing that isn't perfect (other than death, duh, that can be explained through the Bible too). Physics is awesome. Thermal dynamics help us use energy. etc.
My point was that things perhaps weren't always so perfect, it's perhaps taken a long time to get to the place where things work in sync with each other.
What is better? Living the life thinking that we're here only reproduce, then we'll die. Or believing in a Creator. Having purpose in this life. And spending eternity with the Creator in the afterlife.
Just because someone doesn't believe in God doesn't mean they lose all personal purpose in life.The problem is that people would love to believe that we don't merely die, people want to feel protected, safe and they want to think that there is always someone to listen and run to, even me. I wonder perhaps if it's this want that gives people the insane drive to only think there is only God - purely because it makes them feel better to think this way.
You can go ahead, but you'll have a massive headache.
I was asking YOU. Is it because you believe the truth is too complex for us to understand that you simply won't try?
Like archaeological accounts that help prove the Bible. For example, they believe they found Sodom and Gomorrah as well as Noah's ark. One recent archaeological find was an ancient Babylonian coin that had the name Nebuchadnezzar on it.
Note "believe", not proven (yet) and even so, proving that places in a book existed, doesn't all together prove the stories within them, the existence of Jesus or the existence of God.
Have you been baptized in the Holy Spirit? It's like the next step from regular Christianity. It's not necessary to salvation, but if you want to experience the same things that Jesus or the Apostles of the early church did, then you get baptized in the Holy Spirit. That is where the supernatural stuff truly happens.
I was Christened as a baby.
Hi pildit and welcome to this board,Does God exist?Give you two old arguments to consider, the first from my Patron Saint, or at least my attempt to express it;Change - sciences studies this universe and tells us everything is changing. We can see many things changing. Science tells us space, matter and time are all that there is observable in this material universe and all we "see" today is just the sum total of changes up until this point in time. Yet every specific change we observe requires forces outside the object of change in order for that change to occur. If we see the entire universe changing, then it follows there must be a force outside this universe causing the change. If there were nothing outside of the material universe, then there would be nothing that would cause it to change. Yet we know it is changing. Therefore there must be a force outside it, transcending the universe. And that force is one thing meant when we say 'God'.Variation of the ontological (Harshorne and Malcolm) paraphrased and briefly by me;The idea or concept of a “being than which a greater cannot be thought” is valid and consistent thought (GCB for short). IOW we can all imagine such a being. We cannot imagine GCB as necessarily nonexistent. IOW there is nothing about the GCB concept that would lead us to conclude it must not exist (it might or might not). We also cannot imagine GCB existence as a contingency. IOW if GCB depended on something else in order to exist (contingent) then it really was not greater than any thing else we could think of. We can only then think of GCB as necessarily existing, IOW it must exist. But what must exist must be, therefore GCB(God) exists.
One problem most people have discerning whether God exists or not is skepticism. You have to have no skepticism what so ever.
(Wakka;39611)
One problem most people have discerning whether God exists or not is skepticism. You have to have no skepticism what so ever.
Wakka, I'm the proud owner of two lightsabers. Believe me?
One problem most people have discerning whether God exists or not is skepticism. You have to have no skepticism what so ever.
Wakka, I'm the proud owner of two lightsabers. Believe me?
(Wakka;39611)
One problem most people have discerning whether God exists or not is skepticism. You have to have no skepticism what so ever.
Believe it or not. I already knew this.Please address the issues I raised in my last post to you though, it's the last post on page 1 of this thread.
One problem most people have discerning whether God exists or not is skepticism. You have to have no skepticism what so ever.
Believe it or not. I already knew this.Please address the issues I raised in my last post to you though, it's the last post on page 1 of this thread.
(DrBubbaLove;39738)
Actually the quote states much more than this. Everything we observe tells us that no change occurs without some force acting from outside the object being changed. There is no observable reason to suspect this observation is limited to small scale. Ex:Most scientist agree the universe started in a bang, yet without violating their own established laws of science they cannot explain the force causing the bang. In discussing a particular argument we need to limit discussion to what the argument addresses, otherwise our dialogue will wander all over the place. We are not talking about the effects of change, but the cause of change. So whether the changes observed are affecting anything “outside” the universe is moot. Besides science does not even venture to guess what is “outside”. Also whether the universe is infinite or not also does not effect the observation that everything requires an eternal force to effect change. Without the force the change would not occur.If one agrees such a force exists, it really does not matter what one chooses to call it. At least you appear to agree it exists. Perhaps “necessarily nonexistent” was not clear. We cannot imagine a being than which nothing greater can be thought and also that such a being MUST NOT EXIST. At best on could say such a being might or might not exist. There is nothing within the GCB thought that should give us reason to think GCB must not exist. You are perhaps getting ahead of yourself and suggest that from other thoughts you can conclude you do not think GCB exists. That was not the premise as stated. Again that statement was not that GCB exists, but that nothing about the thought forces us to say it “must not” exist (necessarily nonexistent). Of course we could say it might or might not exist, but that was a part of the point being made. Saying it might or might not exist denies that GCB is NECESSARILY read must or has to be) nonexistent. ( To attack a premise one must deal directly with what is said in order to prove it false. At this stage we are speaking of a thought in our mind of a GCB, something in our imagination and are asking ourselves if the existence of such a thing could be contingent on something else. If we imagine something else affecting this GCB, that has made it either exist or not exist, then within our mind we have thought of something greater than the GCB we originally thought of. So rather than proving the contingency of the actual existence of the GCB within our mind, we should recognize that whatever it is we have just imagined causing the contingency is GREATER than what we originally thought was GCB. IOW our original GCB was not big enough. Again you are ahead of yourself. When we say “think” we are speaking in the mind. We have the thought of a GCB and then consider the existence of it. In speaking of something existing, we can only think in terms of it being necessarily nonexistent (we can imagine but impossible that it exist – square circle), that it is contingently existent (existence based on something else existing first) or that it is necessarily existent (it must exist). There are no other options. We covered the first two and showed we cannot think of GCB in those terms. So that only leaves the third possible way of thinking of the existence of something we have imagined as a being that which nothing is greater. That is to say if we think of a GCB at all, then we must think of it as existing, rather contingent or necessarily nonexistent. If there are gaps here, you have failed to point them out. If we can imagine something and the thing we imagine can be thought of in terms of it having to exist (necessarily existent) then it must exist. Just as in the first argument, where you also fail to call such a thing “God “ that is not proof that you fail to see such a thing must exist. It simply means you do not call it what we do, God. You have not made a case against the two arguments; simply refused to call the conclusion “God”. Am beginning to think you are more of an agnostic than an atheist.
Actually I already said I was agnostic athiest right now.And "God" no, it may not be "God". "God" is something that has a persona, like a human being. It might be God.Also just because we can think of something and imagine it doesn't mean it exists.
Actually the quote states much more than this. Everything we observe tells us that no change occurs without some force acting from outside the object being changed. There is no observable reason to suspect this observation is limited to small scale. Ex:Most scientist agree the universe started in a bang, yet without violating their own established laws of science they cannot explain the force causing the bang. In discussing a particular argument we need to limit discussion to what the argument addresses, otherwise our dialogue will wander all over the place. We are not talking about the effects of change, but the cause of change. So whether the changes observed are affecting anything “outside” the universe is moot. Besides science does not even venture to guess what is “outside”. Also whether the universe is infinite or not also does not effect the observation that everything requires an eternal force to effect change. Without the force the change would not occur.If one agrees such a force exists, it really does not matter what one chooses to call it. At least you appear to agree it exists. Perhaps “necessarily nonexistent” was not clear. We cannot imagine a being than which nothing greater can be thought and also that such a being MUST NOT EXIST. At best on could say such a being might or might not exist. There is nothing within the GCB thought that should give us reason to think GCB must not exist. You are perhaps getting ahead of yourself and suggest that from other thoughts you can conclude you do not think GCB exists. That was not the premise as stated. Again that statement was not that GCB exists, but that nothing about the thought forces us to say it “must not” exist (necessarily nonexistent). Of course we could say it might or might not exist, but that was a part of the point being made. Saying it might or might not exist denies that GCB is NECESSARILY read must or has to be) nonexistent. ( To attack a premise one must deal directly with what is said in order to prove it false. At this stage we are speaking of a thought in our mind of a GCB, something in our imagination and are asking ourselves if the existence of such a thing could be contingent on something else. If we imagine something else affecting this GCB, that has made it either exist or not exist, then within our mind we have thought of something greater than the GCB we originally thought of. So rather than proving the contingency of the actual existence of the GCB within our mind, we should recognize that whatever it is we have just imagined causing the contingency is GREATER than what we originally thought was GCB. IOW our original GCB was not big enough. Again you are ahead of yourself. When we say “think” we are speaking in the mind. We have the thought of a GCB and then consider the existence of it. In speaking of something existing, we can only think in terms of it being necessarily nonexistent (we can imagine but impossible that it exist – square circle), that it is contingently existent (existence based on something else existing first) or that it is necessarily existent (it must exist). There are no other options. We covered the first two and showed we cannot think of GCB in those terms. So that only leaves the third possible way of thinking of the existence of something we have imagined as a being that which nothing is greater. That is to say if we think of a GCB at all, then we must think of it as existing, rather contingent or necessarily nonexistent. If there are gaps here, you have failed to point them out. If we can imagine something and the thing we imagine can be thought of in terms of it having to exist (necessarily existent) then it must exist. Just as in the first argument, where you also fail to call such a thing “God “ that is not proof that you fail to see such a thing must exist. It simply means you do not call it what we do, God. You have not made a case against the two arguments; simply refused to call the conclusion “God”. Am beginning to think you are more of an agnostic than an atheist.
Actually I already said I was agnostic athiest right now.And "God" no, it may not be "God". "God" is something that has a persona, like a human being. It might be God.Also just because we can think of something and imagine it doesn't mean it exists.
(Pildit;39749)
Actually I already said I was agnostic athiest right now.And "God" no, it may not be "God". "God" is something that has a persona, like a human being. It might be God.Also just because we can think of something and imagine it doesn't mean it exists.
Oh, well that makes some sense.And your correct, not everything we can imagine exist. But that is not true of everything we can imagine is it? Nor was that point of the Modal version of the ontological argument for God.We can imagine square circles and obviously those can never exist, such things are necessarily non-existent. We can imagine aliens, and obviously those might or might not exist (those are contingent on other things-life on other worlds for one). Pink elephants, unicorns...etc, fall into that same category. But that again was not the point of that argument. Try it. Can you have a thought of that being than which a greater cannot be thought and that it also be thought necessary that such a being not exist? Why the thought that such a being must not exist?Can you have such a thought of a being and imagine it existence is owed to something else (contingent)? What is left?If we can think of something, imagine it in our minds, something that we cannot think that it is necessary that it does not exist and also something we cannot think that it has an existence contingent on anything else, then isn't it true the only thing left is to think that such a thing necessarily exists? And if we can say in our mind that it must necessarily exist, then it must be so.
Actually I already said I was agnostic athiest right now.And "God" no, it may not be "God". "God" is something that has a persona, like a human being. It might be God.Also just because we can think of something and imagine it doesn't mean it exists.
Oh, well that makes some sense.And your correct, not everything we can imagine exist. But that is not true of everything we can imagine is it? Nor was that point of the Modal version of the ontological argument for God.We can imagine square circles and obviously those can never exist, such things are necessarily non-existent. We can imagine aliens, and obviously those might or might not exist (those are contingent on other things-life on other worlds for one). Pink elephants, unicorns...etc, fall into that same category. But that again was not the point of that argument. Try it. Can you have a thought of that being than which a greater cannot be thought and that it also be thought necessary that such a being not exist? Why the thought that such a being must not exist?Can you have such a thought of a being and imagine it existence is owed to something else (contingent)? What is left?If we can think of something, imagine it in our minds, something that we cannot think that it is necessary that it does not exist and also something we cannot think that it has an existence contingent on anything else, then isn't it true the only thing left is to think that such a thing necessarily exists? And if we can say in our mind that it must necessarily exist, then it must be so.
(DrBubbaLove;39755)
Oh, well that makes some sense.And your correct, not everything we can imagine exist. But that is not true of everything we can imagine is it? Nor was that point of the Modal version of the ontological argument for God.We can imagine square circles and obviously those can never exist, such things are necessarily non-existent. We can imagine aliens, and obviously those might or might not exist (those are contingent on other things-life on other worlds for one). Pink elephants, unicorns...etc, fall into that same category. But that again was not the point of that argument. Try it. Can you have a thought of that being than which a greater cannot be thought and that it also be thought necessary that such a being not exist? Why the thought that such a being must not exist?Can you have such a thought of a being and imagine it existence is owed to something else (contingent)? What is left?If we can think of something, imagine it in our minds, something that we cannot think that it is necessary that it does not exist and also something we cannot think that it has an existence contingent on anything else, then isn't it true the only thing left is to think that such a thing necessarily exists? And if we can say in our mind that it must necessarily exist, then it must be so.
You just went around in the same circle. Let me lay the cards on the table for you:We can image pink elephants - they might or might not exist.We can image something starting to universe - that may or maynot be the case.We can imagine that that something is God - there might be a God, there might not.We can imagine there is something greater than God - that may or may not be true.We can imagine there is nothing greater than God - that may or may not be true.Simply put. I'm agonstic. I'm open-minded. This means that if I think of something it doesn't mean it's so.If you point of all this is to get me to think open mindedly - that God COULD exist... I already think so.
Oh, well that makes some sense.And your correct, not everything we can imagine exist. But that is not true of everything we can imagine is it? Nor was that point of the Modal version of the ontological argument for God.We can imagine square circles and obviously those can never exist, such things are necessarily non-existent. We can imagine aliens, and obviously those might or might not exist (those are contingent on other things-life on other worlds for one). Pink elephants, unicorns...etc, fall into that same category. But that again was not the point of that argument. Try it. Can you have a thought of that being than which a greater cannot be thought and that it also be thought necessary that such a being not exist? Why the thought that such a being must not exist?Can you have such a thought of a being and imagine it existence is owed to something else (contingent)? What is left?If we can think of something, imagine it in our minds, something that we cannot think that it is necessary that it does not exist and also something we cannot think that it has an existence contingent on anything else, then isn't it true the only thing left is to think that such a thing necessarily exists? And if we can say in our mind that it must necessarily exist, then it must be so.
You just went around in the same circle. Let me lay the cards on the table for you:We can image pink elephants - they might or might not exist.We can image something starting to universe - that may or maynot be the case.We can imagine that that something is God - there might be a God, there might not.We can imagine there is something greater than God - that may or may not be true.We can imagine there is nothing greater than God - that may or may not be true.Simply put. I'm agonstic. I'm open-minded. This means that if I think of something it doesn't mean it's so.If you point of all this is to get me to think open mindedly - that God COULD exist... I already think so.
Actually if you equate pink elephants to that being who you can imagine that which none is greater then you have no open mind at all.
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