"Raise the dead"

[BreadOfLife]

Thanks very much, it sure helped me.
I found that interesting and informative. And I can see it.
I don't want to derail this thread... but do you hold ( like many people do) that people are already in heaven? Meaning the Heaven of Heavens?
I used to believe that but now I can't see that any more, because the day when all things and all people good and bad will be judged, is not yet here...that is after the resurrection...
But ...maybe that should have a thread of it's own.
On all these things...I am at a place of -" not sure about that one"

Thanks for your help....Helen.

Yes, I believe that there are people already in Heaven.

There are two judgements:
The PARTICULAR Judgement (Heb. 9:27) and the FINAL Judgement (Matt. 25:31-46).
Does that help?

 

[Helen]

Yes, I believe that there are people already in Heaven.

There are two judgements:
The PARTICULAR Judgement (Heb. 9:27) and the FINAL Judgement (Matt. 25:31-46).
Does that help?

Thanks...I'll check it out.
I think Stranger mentioned that once to me...but it obviously didn't click..I must go and check the verses you quoted.

 

[bbyrd009]

WHY is it not true?

because imo God cannot be known like that; but then this is debated too i guess.
we might even be having a semantics discussion, but i don't think so

in knowing the true God. They are each saying- " I am doing God's will."
Far from the same.
I was NOT saying- I am doing God will.

ok, so then maybe we are having a semantics discussion? i would submit that they would submit that they heard God's voice too

I still maintain that we can indeed do, know God to the measure of Light and understanding that He has given us.

i don't disagree, yet satan appears as an angel too

you will know them by their fruit, right, so we are all kind of at a disadvantage here in that respect

 

[bbyrd009]

I still maintain that we can indeed do, know God to the measure of Light and understanding that He has given us.
If you doubt that after these years then you should find a cave, get quite, and ask God to open you eyes and ears that you can come to know Him and and hear His still small voice.

great advice imo

 

[Richard_oti]

Actually - Purgatory -
<snip>
Hope that helps.

Thank you BreadofLife. That was well worth the read.

 

[Richard_oti]

Well thats good...for with me you need it...and with bbyrd we all need it!(although his are not typo's. So we/you get lots of practice of reading between the lines of what someone is trying to say...(or in his case, trying not to say )

Did someone here pray that we be granted more discernment and "God" sent forth @bbyrd009? <chuckle>

I agree, have always agreed there. Do you see them as the same ones who came out of the graves and walked into the city and showed themselves to many.? Matt 27:52-53 I do. Although I find it a great mystery! Why did it not make a bigger splash in the News? Did they walk back to their graves afterward? Or did Jesus drop them off in a paradise as He went on the Heaven. ( I do not believe anyone is in heaven yet, because the day of judgement has not come.)

With regard to Matthew 27, as it is a single witness, I do not place much emphasis upon it. However, assuming that such occurred, it is my opinion that it would have been such as:

Mat 23:35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.

As to what became of them afterward, that is indeed the question. I can't see anyone being arisen like that only to return to she'ol, or even to "Abraham's bosom". Which thus would leave open the possibility of "heaven". Nor can I see those who sinned aforetime, the spirits in prison, as being "raised" prior to those I mention above from Matthew 23. And I agree, something like that should have made a "bigger splash", I would have expected to find an external account of such a thing.

Yes agree here...I can see "purgatory" and where it comes from...but it is something I have stuck up 'on my shelf' ..I have a few things that I am not convinced of either way, which are 'on my shelf.' Over the years, some I have taken down and kept, some I have taken down and thrown out of the window. But a few things still remain up there.
<snip>

Same here. Somethings shall probably always remain on the shelf, for I no longer deem them pertinent enough to ever decide one way or the other.

Me too, all this..( outworking's of The Fire etc) we can not know either way.
For some, the fire of regrets and pain, to others the fire of joy and love. But either way the Fire will do the work needed.

Indeed. @BreadOfLife 's post was definitely worth the read.

Yes, agree.

I do not agree with how some people throw the word hell around. That one I did do years of study on...and I can never buy into this "hell burning forever and ever" thing any more. ( neither the word 'hell' or the word 'forever', they came off my 'shelf' years ago. ) But I am pretty sure you wont agree there.

Ugh!!! You cut me deep Shrek! Oh how short you sell me. I'm soooooo hurt!!! <hearty chuckle with feigned righteous indignation>

Mat 10:28 And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

It ain't called the "second death" for nothing. Otherwise it also would be "eternal life", although in torment. The second death is non-existence. It is not eternal hellfire.

And I don't like debating it, it never ends well. ( the debate, not The End, which in my book ends well ) I prefer to keep my friends.

So, how did this debate upon it end? I mean, as deep as you cut me with that sword and twisted my arm, I really had no choice but to agree with you. <grin>

 

[Richard_oti]

I SOoo agree here! It is so hard to shake off what we were first told and believed as truth. However strong the conviction is that what we first heard was indeed not the whole truth..yet it sticks like gum on the shoe.

Indeed. I remember as a young Christian, I thought I had a subject all figured out. But I missed one key verse ... Yep, had to eat some crow on that one. It sticks to the roof of your mouth <chuckle>

When we saw the bondage of the legalism we were in , and we broke out of that whole system...it took us years to finally get all that legalistic fear and bondage off that bound us, and to throw away the grave cloths as Lazarus.

The best worst day of my life, was when all my "beliefs" came crashing down. To rebuild from scratch, it was a blessing indeed.

I love how you are willing to say..."most of that which I think I know"...
I used to (think I) know...but how liberating it is when we 'grow up' and can say.. "I think I am right on this, but maybe not."
I am confident in Who I know and what He has done and how....but all the rest... I hold lightly.

Indubitably!

<snip>

Thank you, I enjoyed your post... and you explained the purgatory thing for me clearer than I understood. I had not "looked into it" ever...
If there is such a thing, I would set it after the day of judgement and not now. Because to me, if it is now..then people have already been judged!!
I find that confusing. ( which is not hard for me. ha!)

For this same reason I hold the "Rich man and Lazarus" ( Abrahams bosom)
softly...for again, it kinda shows that court is over? and one is in one place and the other in the other place...If this be the case..why bother with the day of judgement ....but that is not for this thread I guess .

I also hold such lightly. Concur, for such to be the case, there has to be some sort of initial judgment. OTOH: There are two resurrections, thus again, showing some sort of initial judgment beforehand. So it appears to be something in which there is some merit. However it is beyond our absolute grasp in this life. Thus again why like our friend @amadeus, I must continue with a limit of "today", or, in this life.

 

[bbyrd009]

<chuckle>

lol

i am doing God's will!

 

[bbyrd009]

The best worst day of my life, was when all my "beliefs" came crashing down. To rebuild from scratch, it was a blessing indeed.

yes, and it shows too imo. it cannot be hidden, and as near as i can tell cannot be faked, for long anyway

 

[Helen]

With regard to Matthew 27, as it is a single witness, I do not place much emphasis upon it. However, assuming that such occurred, it is my opinion that it would have been such as:
As to what became of them afterward, that is indeed the question. I can't see anyone being arisen like that only to return to she'ol, or even to "Abraham's bosom". Which thus would leave open the possibility of "heaven". Nor can I see those who sinned aforetime, the spirits in prison, as being "raised" prior to those I mention above from Matthew 23. And I agree, something like that should have made a "bigger splash", I would have expected to find an external account of such a thing.
......>
Mat 10:28 And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
It ain't called the "second death" for nothing. Otherwise it also would be "eternal life", although in torment. The second death is non-existence. It is not eternal hellfire.
So, how did this debate upon it end? I mean, as deep as you cut me with that sword and twisted my arm, I really had no choice but to agree with you. <grin>

Thank you, such a good post.
Wish I could have read that before bed...or time zones must be very different. My day started hard as you know...it ended well, but would have been even weller if I'd caught this post. My light goes out at ten. I come off my laptop at 9-15pm (see I am still a legalist at heart! Legalism dies hard. )

Debates? Too many forums, too many bloody battles. Some just cannot disagree easily without losing their cool.
So now for the most part I side-step the Hell (as taught) debates,.. and neither do I any longer debate that as all died in Adam, all will be saved in Jesus. ( every man in his own order) That is a bloody battle too. Been there, done that.
I can take the heretic word.. my skin is no longer soft ...we each must believe about God what we believe He has shown us. It will either go up in flames on that Day..or stand. We shall see.
Thank you. H

 

[Richard_oti]

lol

i am doing God's will!

I am doing God's will,
You're doing God's will,
They're doing God's will,
We're all doing God's will!

<chuckle>

Each according to our subjective understandings / opinions of what that may be. Which would be inclusive of those in that meme you are so fond of.

Each of us according to our subjective perspective from our given place in time / history. I have often wondered how we each would perceive things if we lived at various points in history. Say such as the "Dark Ages", etc,. etc.. Or even at the time of the Exodus, how many of us would be willing to slaughter entire "people(s)" in the Name of "God"? How many of us are currently willing and perhaps even "enthusiastic" at the thought of some being "annihilated".

I have known some that were all but foaming at the mouth at the thought of my death, at the thought of putting me to death.

I know for myself, that I do not relish the thought of any being "done away with". Thus perhaps, I am not "doing God's will".

Of course, I "perceive" there is a bit of you, not willing that any should perish ...

 

[Richard_oti]

yes, and it shows too imo. it cannot be hidden, and as near as i can tell cannot be faked, for long anyway

Maybe I am just better at it than most <grin>.

 

[Richard_oti]

Thank you, such a good post.
Wish I could have read that before bed...or time zones must be very different. My day started hard as you know...it ended well, but would have been even weller if I'd caught this post. My light goes out at ten. I come off my laptop at 9-15pm (see I am still a legalist at heart! Legalism dies hard. )

I don't think so. I think we may be in the same time zone, or maybe off by one. I am Pacific time, which I figure you may also be, though no earlier than Mountain time. By the time I read the forum, which I like to do before I ever reply, and by the time I compose all my replies before I ever hit send. It is usually around 10.

I don't see having a regular bedtime as "legalism". It is a good healthy routine. The body [and mind] thrive best with good routine.

OTOH: I don't see the upholding of the Instruction as "legalism" either.

Where it crosses the line IMO: Is when one considers oneself more righteous because of such. Or, when one trusts in themselves that they are righteous [cf Luk 18:9]. Or, when one says do as I do, or, do as I say [Mat 23:3].

Debates? Too many forums, too many bloody battles. Some just cannot disagree easily without losing their cool.
So now for the most part I side-step the Hell (as taught) debates,.. and neither do I any longer debate that as all died in Adam, all will be saved in Jesus. ( every man in his own order) That is a bloody battle too. Been there, done that.
I can take the heretic word.. my skin is no longer soft ...we each must believe about God what we believe He has shown us. It will either go up in flames on that Day..or stand. We shall see.

Indubitably. Been a heretic most of my life, don't see much point in changing now <grin>.