"Raise the dead"

[Helen]

yet many believers would argue this point, i guess

Well that is understandable.
We talk to Him and he talks to us. So in a way we know Him.
I know God much better than I know the queen, I know who she is and a lot about her, but I don't know her.

So, yes we know God...we have just not plumbed the depth , but- "Deep calleth to deep.." I think that is why the Book never ever becomes a boring book.

 

[Richard_oti]

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
I think you meant 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Indubitably. And 1 Kings 22 / 2 Chr 18 amoung other places of which I was thinking.

I remember reading, I think it was in Enoch, that of those who "fell" [angels], not all were bound, but a portion / some were reserved for just such purpose. Nothing that I consider "doctrine", just another POV as to whom may possibly being used for such purpose.

 

[Richard_oti]

ha ya, the Spirit lying to someone seems really counter-intuitive huh. Had it happen to me personally a couple times. Of course it was my problem, not the Spirit, Which was ministering to me where i was at, at the time. Essentially "well, what would telling you the truth at the time have done for you, if you could not hear it? Now you can!"

still weird though

<chuckle>

 

[Richard_oti]

We each must be true to the level that we believe God's Spirit has led us to. We called to walk in another mans light. ( unless we are persuaded )

<chuckle> Reminds me of Acts 26:28! I wonder why?!?

However, I agree with your initial statement.

I do believe in The Fire....
I believe Heb 12:29 "For our God is a consuming fire." We know He is all things. He is the Cause and He is the Answer.

Num.31 23 "Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water."

You and I too.
1 Cor 3 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. ( oh how Christians dislike that word REWARD! So many believe that we will ALL be just one happy-clappy glob in Glory.)
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

I agree, but then again, how could I deny such. But I do not necessarily see that "fire" as "purgatory", for I see those as two separate things.

And yeah, I agree with you regarding "reward", for there are great and least in the kingdom as well. And, there are those according to Isaiah, who shall receive a memorial.

V15 that you quote above, also brings to mind 1 Cor 5:5 for some reason.

Our friend @bbyrd009 is often mentioning fruit...well all the above shows the 'fire test' of our good-works fruit, be it gold silver and precious stones , or wood , hay and stubble. The Fire will test it all.

Only time will tell on who's side truth lays.

Or rather: Who lays on the side of truth. <grin>

 

[Helen]

<chuckle> Reminds me of Acts 26:28! I wonder why?!?

However, I agree with your initial statement.

I agree, but then again, how could I deny such. But I do not necessarily see that "fire" as "purgatory", for I see those as two separate things.

And yeah, I agree with you regarding "reward", for there are great and least in the kingdom as well. And, there are those according to Isaiah, who shall receive a memorial.
V15 that you quote above, also brings to mind 1 Cor 5:5 for some reason.

Or rather: Who lays on the side of truth. <grin>

Goodness, when I read my own quotes of my post I am amazed you could even understand what I was trying to say...I leave letters out of words, I could hardly understand what I was saying!!

Can you say more in reference of how you see the fire and purgatory ?
( if you feel to, that is)
I see no other fire but God, everything came out of Him, and all will return into Him.
Your thoughts?
Sorry I have been long in answering this..it is 8pm my time and I have only just found it at the bottom of the long "New Posts" page.

Not many agree on Rewards...most can't see the difference between salvation and inheritance..which I find very clear all through the NT.
But that's fine...we all see though whatever filter we were first taught ... hard to break old habits or entertain something one has not thought of before.
We don't have to answer for each other, just for ourselves.
Bless you...H

 

[amadeus]

But I do not necessarily see that "fire" as "purgatory", for I see those as two separate things.

I would see the fire as two different manifestations really from the same source. Indeed as it is written:

"For our God is a consuming fire." Heb 12:29

But, does God only burn things up?

God has both His blessings and His curses already spoken and...

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. " Isaiah 55:11

So which will it be? We see the strong men killed by the fire with the three Hebrews made free by the fire [Daniel 3]. The former suffered the curse of the fire while the latter received the blessing of the same fire. But...?

Lev 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not." Lev 10:1

Or...?

"And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them." Acts 2:2-3

There is a right way and a wrong way to approach God even when we supposedly are using His Word. His Word is beautiful and it is dangerous. It all depends on your approach to it, doesn't it?

The one is perhaps on or from the Right hand of God while the other would be from the Left.

"And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left." Matt 25:33

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" Matt 25:34

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" Matt 25:41

 

[Richard_oti]

<snip>
There is a right way and a wrong way to approach God even when we supposedly are using His Word. His Word is beautiful and it is dangerous. It all depends on your approach to it, doesn't it?

Sharp and double-edged. Love the way you put that.

<snip>

 

[Richard_oti]

Goodness, when I read my own quotes of my post I am amazed you could even understand what I was trying to say...I leave letters out of words, I could hardly understand what I was saying!!

I read fluent typo <chuckle>.

Can you say more in reference of how you see the fire and purgatory ?
( if you feel to, that is)
I see no other fire but God, everything came out of Him, and all will return into Him.
Your thoughts?
Sorry I have been long in answering this..it is 8pm my time and I have only just found it at the bottom of the long "New Posts" page.

No problem. "Purgatory" as I understand the "doctrine" thereof, is a place of holding in which we are tormented / punished for our sins, in so that we might enter the kingdom. A place for those not quite "good" enough, but not "bad" enough either. @BreadOfLife may correct me if I am misrepresenting this.

In Luke 16 and in Enoch 22 there is the "good" place, Abraham's bosom / a cool bay and then there is the "bad" place(s).

When Jesus was crucified, he descended to preach to the spirits in prison. IMO that wasn't the "good" place. I personally do not see any reason that Jesus will descend into such again. Such is counter-intuitive to my so called understanding of Scripture.

In my opinion, the "doctrine" of purgatory was most likely derived from the book of Enoch. Even in Peter and some of that spoken by Jesus there is a direct reflection to the book of Enoch from my perspective.

This life, is our time of "proving" from my perspective, whether we will follow, or whether we shall rebel. Whether we shall believe and obey, or disobey which is also to disbelieve.

Is "purgatory" a possibility? Indeed. But it is not something that I subscribe unto given the warnings in Scripture. It is like saying, oh well, you can kinda believe, but if you go your way and sin, it's okay. Just serve your time in "purgatory" and your all good to go.

Just as there are those who pray for the souls of those in purgatory that their time may be shortened. Which, is not too much different really from my perspective than those who were baptized for the dead as Paul wrote.

My apologies, as this is not something that I have ever put any real thought into, my thoughts are rough.


Now as for the "fire", the "refiner's fire", that is not from my perspective some term or time in "purgatory". It is a passing through the "fire". The work of a "touchstone" so to speak.

We are refined in this life, through fire [trials]. At the end, it is our work(s) that also shall pass through the fire to see if they stand the test. Like a touchstone, which is used to test the purity. So also shall the fire reveal the purity of our works. For which, shall be the measure of the "reward" so to speak. For I know that such could be disputed.

Not many agree on Rewards...most can't see the difference between salvation and inheritance..which I find very clear all through the NT.

I agree, there is a difference. We may not agree on the finer points, however we agree upon the overall regarding that.

But that's fine...we all see though whatever filter we were first taught ... hard to break old habits or entertain something one has not thought of before.

Indeed. People tend to believe what they hear first, even in the face of evidence to the contrary.
I count myself lucky, that most of that which I think I know, comes from Scripture, and not Sunday School so to speak. I was put out of fellowship while still a young Christian, leaving me to trust "God" and His Word. Now, I am only a empty shell of what once was.

I have eaten crow so to speak many times in life through the refinement process. And probably, not for the last time.

Hopefully, my overly verbose "unrefined" reply shall help reveal my thoughts.

<snip>

 

[bbyrd009]

I know God much better than I know the queen

i'm sure we would all like to think this, but of course this is not true

 

[bbyrd009]

Not many agree on Rewards...most can't see the difference between salvation and inheritance..which I find very clear all through the NT.

i posted a link on this, that you did not reply to, why not? Not that i would argue that there is not some sense in which they are differentiated, that is possible too i guess

I agree, there is a difference. We may not agree on the finer points, however we agree upon the overall regarding that.

what i mostly dislike is what inheritance suggests to a believer today, iow tomorrow is inferred

 

[Helen]

I read fluent typo <chuckle>.

Well thats good...for with me you need it...and with bbyrd we all need it!(although his are not typo's. So we/you get lots of practice of reading between the lines of what someone is trying to say...(or in his case, trying not to say )

"Purgatory" as I understand the "doctrine" thereof, is a place of holding in which we are tormented / punished for our sins, in so that we might enter the kingdom. A place for those not quite "good" enough, but not "bad" enough either. @BreadOfLife may correct me if I am misrepresenting this.

When Jesus was crucified, he descended to preach to the spirits in prison. IMO that wasn't the "good" place. I personally do not see any reason that Jesus will descend into such again. Such is counter-intuitive to my so called understanding of Scripture.

I agree, have always agreed there. Do you see them as the same ones who came out of the graves and walked into the city and showed themselves to many.? Matt 27:52-53 I do. Although I find it a great mystery! Why did it not make a bigger splash in the News? Did they walk back to their graves afterward? Or did Jesus drop them off in a paradise as He went on the Heaven. ( I do not believe anyone is in heaven yet, because the day of judgement has not come.)

In my opinion, the "doctrine" of purgatory was most likely derived from the book of Enoch. Even in Peter and some of that spoken by Jesus there is a direct reflection to the book of Enoch from my perspective.

This life, is our time of "proving" from my perspective, whether we will follow, or whether we shall rebel. Whether we shall believe and obey, or disobey which is also to disbelieve.

Yes agree here...I can see "purgatory" and where it comes from...but it is something I have stuck up 'on my shelf' ..I have a few things that I am not convinced of either way, which are 'on my shelf.' Over the years, some I have taken down and kept, some I have taken down and thrown out of the window. But a few things still remain up there.
<snip>

My apologies, as this is not something that I have ever put any real thought into, my thoughts are rough.

Me too, all this..( outworking's of The Fire etc) we can not know either way.
For some, the fire of regrets and pain, to others the fire of joy and love. But either way the Fire will do the work needed.

Now as for the "fire", the "refiner's fire", that is not from my perspective some term or time in "purgatory". It is a passing through the "fire". The work of a "touchstone" so to speak.

So also shall the fire reveal the purity of our works. For which, shall be the measure of the "reward" so to speak. For I know that such could be disputed.

Yes, agree.

I do not agree with how some people throw the word hell around. That one I did do years of study on...and I can never buy into this "hell burning forever and ever" thing any more. ( neither the word 'hell' or the word 'forever', they came off my 'shelf' years ago. ) But I am pretty sure you wont agree there.
And I don't like debating it, it never ends well. ( the debate, not The End, which in my book ends well ) I prefer to keep my friends.

 

[Helen]

Indeed. People tend to believe what they hear first, even in the face of evidence to the contrary.

I SOoo agree here! It is so hard to shake off what we were first told and believed as truth. However strong the conviction is that what we first heard was indeed not the whole truth..yet it sticks like gum on the shoe.
When we saw the bondage of the legalism we were in , and we broke out of that whole system...it took us years to finally get all that legalistic fear and bondage off that bound us, and to throw away the grave cloths as Lazarus.

I count myself lucky, that most of that which I think I know, comes from Scripture, and not Sunday School so to speak. I was put out of fellowship while still a young Christian, leaving me to trust "God" and His Word. Now, I am only a empty shell of what once was.

I love how you are willing to say..."most of that which I think I know"...
I used to (think I) know...but how liberating it is when we 'grow up' and can say.. "I think I am right on this, but maybe not."
I am confident in Who I know and what He has done and how....but all the rest... I hold lightly.

I have eaten crow so to speak many times in life through the refinement process. And probably, not for the last time.

Hopefully, my overly verbose "unrefined" reply shall help reveal my thoughts.

Thank you, I enjoyed your post... and you explained the purgatory thing for me clearer than I understood. I had not "looked into it" ever...
If there is such a thing, I would set it after the day of judgement and not now. Because to me, if it is now..then people have already been judged!!
I find that confusing. ( which is not hard for me. ha!)

For this same reason I hold the "Rich man and Lazarus" ( Abrahams bosom)
softly...for again, it kinda shows that court is over? and one is in one place and the other in the other place...If this be the case..why bother with the day of judgement ....but that is not for this thread I guess .

 

[Helen]

i'm sure we would all like to think this, but of course this is not true

You can disagree, I knew you would.

But I have spent much time in God's presence, but never in the Queen's!!

And in 1975 Christmas Eve, I actually heard the audible voice of God speaking to me...the Queen has never spoken to me personally, as God did that day.

 

[bbyrd009]

You can disagree, I knew you would.

But I have spent much time in God's presence, but never in the Queen's!!

And in 1975 Christmas Eve, I actually heard the audible voice of God speaking to me...the Queen has never spoken to me personally, as God did that day.

i tried a couple diff ways of posting that, "wish i could say the same" just seemed superior; and i hope you understand that these guys all agree with you?

satan appears as an angel of light

 

[bbyrd009]

And in 1975 Christmas Eve, I actually heard the audible voice of God speaking to me...the Queen has never spoken to me personally, as God did that day.

at the same time i don't doubt that you have heard the Word, ok, don't get me wrong.
But even you might note that that was a special enough occasion to merit your recollecting the time and date 40 years later?

 

[Helen]

i tried a couple diff ways of posting that, "wish i could say the same" just seemed superior; and i hope you understand that these guys all agree with you?

satan appears as an angel of light

I am beginning to feel that you are making this personal now.
Doesn't matter what I write, you just say the opposite.

Okay..got it!

 

[bbyrd009]

I am beginning to feel that you are making this personal now.
Doesn't matter what I write, you just say the opposite.

ah, well please don't assume that--i am right where you are, after all; here, now--and just address the "these guys all agree with you" part, if you will. Separate self from beliefs, as much as possible. Become the observer iow. I am only questioning the belief
but if you give this indication again, i can start just agreeing with you if you prefer ok

 

[Helen]

at the same time i don't doubt that you have heard the Word, ok, don't get me wrong.
But even you might note that that was a special enough occasion to merit your recollecting the time and date 40 years later?

Yes, agree, obviously. My husband and many others never have in a life time heard the audible voice..but that was not my point. That takes no faith at all...listening to, waiting upon, and hearing God's inner voice is where faith is. That is the relationship. I didn't much like hearing the actual voice of God...it was as loud as thunder, shook the room and nearly knocked me out of bed. I much prefer the heart to heart voice.
Jesus said " My sheep know my voice..."
Why would you doubt that is true?
I was trying to show ...when I said..
I know God better than I know the queen...and you said:- 'i'm sure we would all like to think this, but of course this is not true' /
I was trying to show that we do, and can, know God to the measure that He chooses to reveal to us. It IS true.
That is whole reason He sent Jesus, so that to could start knowing Him ..that was Paul's cry - " That I may know Him..." So why do you then say-'i'm sure we would all like to think this, but of course this is not true'
WHY is it not true?

The inner cry to know God ...pleases Him, it does not fall on deaf ears with God...He is daily revealing Himself to us..I'd even go as far as saying -He reveals to us as much of Himself that we will pay the price for...in waiting on Him and listening to Him.

Your cartoon picture of those guys, isn't saying that they agree with me...in knowing the true God. They are each saying- " I am doing God's will."
Far from the same.
I was NOT saying- I am doing God will.
To that my answer would be "Which God"?
Maybe a god of their own making..and maybe a few of them do have a relationship with God....who's to know what their personal relationship with God is like. Time will answer that question....for them.

I still maintain that we can indeed do, know God to the measure of Light and understanding that He has given us.
If you doubt that after these years then you should find a cave, get quite, and ask God to open you eyes and ears that you can come to know Him and and hear His still small voice. As Jesus said. No angel of light can will be believed when we know His voice. ..as Jesus said .."and a stranger they will not follow."

 

[BreadOfLife]

No problem. "Purgatory" as I understand the "doctrine" thereof, is a place of holding in which we are tormented / punished for our sins, in so that we might enter the kingdom. A place for those not quite "good" enough, but not "bad" enough either. @BreadOfLife may correct me if I am misrepresenting this.

Actually - Purgatory - or "Final Purgation" is not so much as "place" as it is a state. It is the state of final cleansing before entering Heaven for those in need of purgation.
According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it’s a “final purification of the elect” (1030-1032).

Since Rev. 21:27 tells us that NOTHING impure or imperfect can enter Heaven - a final purification or purgation is necessary for some before entering heaven.

In 2 Macc. 42-46, we see that Judas Maccabeus prays for the men of his army, killed in battle. Verse 44 says:
“… for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.”

Matt. 5:25-26 tells us that unless we have settled our matters, we will be “handed over to the prison guard and will not be released until we have paid the last penny.”

We are told in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that the day (judgment) will disclose the foundation that a person builds upon and how it will be revealed:
"If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”
a) This description can't be Heaven because the person will suffer.
b) This description can't be Hell because the person will be saved.
c) This is describing a THIRD state - that of final cleansing through the fire of God, the Great Refiner (Mal. 3:3, Zech 13:8-9).

Additionally, Matt. 12:32 states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”, which indicates that there is purification after death for some. Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.

Hope that helps.

 

[Helen]

Actually - Purgatory - or "Final Purgation" is not so much as "place" as it is a state. It is the state of final cleansing before entering Heaven for those in need of purgation.
According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it’s a “final purification of the elect” (1030-1032).

Since Rev. 21:27 tells us that NOTHING impure or imperfect can enter Heaven - a final purification or purgation is necessary for some before entering heaven.

In 2 Macc. 42-46, we see that Judas Maccabeus prays for the men of his army, killed in battle. Verse 44 says:
“… for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.”

Matt. 5:25-26 tells us that unless we have settled our matters, we will be “handed over to the prison guard and will not be released until we have paid the last penny.”

We are told in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that the day (judgment) will disclose the foundation that a person builds upon and how it will be revealed:
"If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”
a) This description can't be Heaven because the person will suffer.
b) This description can't be Hell because the person will be saved.
c) This is describing a THIRD state - that of final cleansing through the fire of God, the Great Refiner (Mal. 3:3, Zech 13:8-9).

Additionally, Matt. 12:32 states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”, which indicates that there is purification after death for some. Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.

Hope that helps.

Thanks very much, it sure helped me.
I found that interesting and informative. And I can see it.
I don't want to derail this thread... but do you hold ( like many people do) that people are already in heaven? Meaning the Heaven of Heavens?
I used to believe that but now I can't see that any more, because the day when all things and all people good and bad will be judged, is not yet here...that is after the resurrection...
But ...maybe that should have a thread of it's own.
This is one all these things...I am at a place of -" not sure about that one"

Thanks for your help....Helen.