Rapture and End Time Beliefs

[Dave L]

1. Christ comes as a thief
2. In an hour we think not
3. In times likened to Noah
4. In times likened to Lot

Instead of brimstone or a flood we will have a tribulation. But... The saints will be delivered, likened unto Noah, likened unto Lot. So, be ready for it... Christ could come today!

Not petty tribulation, which we already have had centuries of. It's the end of the world as the universe explodes killing all who were not raptured on the last day.

 

[Trekson]

So; WHY?

The pre-trib rapture theory is the only rapture theory that exempts believers from the trials and tribulations to come. The others like pre-wrath, puts us right there in the midst of them.

 

[Trekson]

If you think about it God did not call us to be pre- mid- or post- trib. He called us to be ready for him to come as a thief, at any time, or at any moment. Scripturally Christ could come pre- mid- or post- trib. But it is not God's will for us to know the timing of things, as Christ said...

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. - Acts 1

Hi Rockytop, Actually he will come as a thief only to the unsaved world. We the church will know the signs (Matt. 24 and the 6th seal) when His return is close. 1Thess. 5:4-5 -
"But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

 

[rockytopva]

Hi Rockytop, Actually he will come as a thief only to the unsaved world. We the church will know the signs (Matt. 24 and the 6th seal) when His return is close. 1Thess. 5:4-5 -
"But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

The commandment is for all to watch. For we know not whether he comes pre- mid- post- trib. But... If we are to return with Christ to reign a thousand years how are we going to be with him in the first place unless a rapture takes place?

For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch. - Mark 13:34-37

 

[Trekson]

The commandment is for all to watch. For we know not whether he comes pre- mid- post- trib. But... If we are to return with Christ to reign a thousand years how are we going to be with him in the first place unless a rapture takes place?

For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch. - Mark 13:34-37

Hi Rocky, I do believe in a rapture just not a pre-trib one, I'm pre-wrath.

 

[CoreIssue]

You tag line is a bit general. Please allow me to refine it: "The Ten Commandments are the mirror of the Soul".

James 1:22-25:

1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty (aka the royal law aka the ten commandments), and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

That is a rewrite and in accurate.

 

[CoreIssue]

Because it isn't Jesuit. It predates Catholicism and Protestant.

 

[Phoneman777]

Because it isn't Jesuit. It predates Catholicism and Protestant.

So, where do you find it predating catholicism? No ECF ever wrote about it nor had anyone else until the Jesuits came up with it in the 16th century.

 

[Phoneman777]

The commandment is for all to watch. For we know not whether he comes pre- mid- post- trib. But... If we are to return with Christ to reign a thousand years how are we going to be with him in the first place unless a rapture takes place?

For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch. - Mark 13:34-37

Since the destruction that will accompany Jesus when He comes for His saints will be so severe that the Earth will not be able to sustain life for one day let alone for 7 years, according to many texts like 2 Peter 3:10, that leaves only the possibility of a post-trib Second Coming.

 

[Phoneman777]

The pre-trib rapture theory is the only rapture theory that exempts believers from the trials and tribulations to come. The others like pre-wrath, puts us right there in the midst of them.

The Three Hebrew Worthies were right there in the midst of a furnace of tribulation, as were the Israelites in the Red Sea, Noah and his family during the Flood, Daniel in the lion's den, Jonah in the whale, the shipboard disciples in the storm, and even the promise of Psalms 91 that tribulation shall be "as thy side...(and)...at thy right hand", which proves God - the same yesterday, today, and forever- is able to deliver His people no matter what the circumstances.

 

[CoreIssue]

So, where do you find it predating catholicism? No ECF ever wrote about it nor had anyone else until the Jesuits came up with it in the 16th century.

I see it clearly in the Bible.

The History of the Pre-trib Rapture

Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373
Early Church Teaching On Pre-Tribulation Rapture

The Pretribulation Rapture Has Been Taught Throughout Christian History

 

[Truth]

I f

Hi Rocky, I do believe in a rapture just not a pre-trib one, I'm pre-wrath.

I find it sorta funny how we as people, weather pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib, deny the Power of Our God to rapture His Children, in the Twinkling of an eye, and not be able to have them ready to return with Him! I believe we will be Gathered together before the Bowl's of His Wrath are poured out. I am post trib, But I Like Your Take Pre-Wrath!! Thus We Will not endure His Wrath!!

 

[Keraz]

I f


I find it sorta funny how we as people, weather pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib, deny the Power of Our God to rapture His Children, in the Twinkling of an eye, and not be able to have them ready to return with Him! I believe we will be Gathered together before the Bowl's of His Wrath are poured out. I am post trib, But I Like Your Take Pre-Wrath!! Thus We Will not endure His Wrath!!

I find it very sad that people have gripped onto such an incredible and fanciful fairy tale as being 'raptured to heaven' and accompanying Jesus as He Returns in glory. This idea beats any 'Star Wars' or LOTR scenario for sheer fiction. But of course, we are told that many will be deceived. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
Nowhere in the Bible is it said that the Lord intends to take His people to heaven. In fact Jesus specifically rebuts that idea. John 3:13, +
Also the nonsense that Christian people will return with Jesus, is soundly squashed by Matthew 16:27 & 25:31

We all must face testing and trials, 1 Peter 4:12, but the Lord promises that we will not be tried beyond our endurance. 1 Corinthians 10:13
But what is certain is; we must endure until the end. Revelation 13:10 & 14:12

And if you think I sound like a 'grinch', let me assure you that the Lord promises amazing blessings to His faithful people; on earth, where we belong and eventually God Himself will come to dwell with us. Revelation 21:1-7

 

[Stranger]

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept my command to persevere , I shall also keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole earth, to test those who dwell on earth.

The context of the passage has nothing to do with a rapture. The word KEEP doesn't imply a removal from but to be protected through. The word KEEP implies to take care of not remove from. The promise is not to remove or keep believers out of the trial, but to preserve and protect them through the hour of trial. There are other examples where God's people are protected through trial and judgment.

Strong's say's....
to attend to carefully, take care of
to guard
metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is
to observe
to reserve: to undergo something
Vines says...
"to keep, to guard," is translated "to be kept in charge," in Act 24:23; 25:4, RV (AV, "kept").
See HOLD, KEEP, OBSERVE, PRESERVE, WATCH.

There are several example in the bible where God didn't remove people from their troubles but help them through them.

It doesn't say just 'keep'. It says 'keep thee from the hour of temptation'. Again, Enoch was kept from the trial of the flood. Noah and his family were kept through the trial of the flood.

Of course God can protect His people through the trials. That doesn't mean He doesn't protect some by removing them from the trials.

So, go ahead and play your word games. They change nothing.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Word games right from the Greek lexicon. Click on the link!

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

Strong's say's....
to attend to carefully, take care of
to guard
metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is
to observe
to reserve: to undergo something
________________________________________________
Vines says...
"to keep, to guard," is translated "to be kept in charge," in Act 24:23; 25:4, RV (AV, "kept").
See HOLD, KEEP, OBSERVE, PRESERVE, WATCH.

There are several example in the bible where God didn't remove people from their troubles but help them through them.

Did God remove Noah and his family from the flood or did He saved them through it?
Did God remove Daniel from the Lion's den or did He save him through it?
Did God remove the three Hebrews from the fiery furnace of did He save them through it?
Did God remove Job from his trials or did God help him through them?

Yes, I know. You already said that. Reread my post #(276).

No, God did not remove Noah and his family from the flood.
No, God did not remove Daniel from the Lions den.
No. God did not remove Daniels three friends from the fiery furnace.
No. God did not remove Job from his trials.

But, God did remove Enoch before the flood.

Stranger

 

[CoreIssue]

Word games right from the Greek lexicon. Click on the link!

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

Strong's say's....
to attend to carefully, take care of
to guard
metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is
to observe
to reserve: to undergo something
________________________________________________
Vines says...
"to keep, to guard," is translated "to be kept in charge," in Act 24:23; 25:4, RV (AV, "kept").
See HOLD, KEEP, OBSERVE, PRESERVE, WATCH.

There are several example in the bible where God didn't remove people from their troubles but help them through them.

Did God remove Noah and his family from the flood or did He saved them through it?
Did God remove Daniel from the Lion's den or did He save him through it?
Did God remove the three Hebrews from the fiery furnace of did He save them through it?
Did God remove Job from his trials or did God help him through them?

You gave the definition of Tereo but failed to give the definition of Ek or Tereo Ek

As for your for examples of questions they are not applicable.

God did not put them in those positions but he does put the whole world under trial in Revelation.

God does not test his children.

As well, the AC cannot be revealed until the restrainer is removed. The restrainer is the Holy Spirit and you cannot remove him without removing us.

If you want to try to claim someone else is the restrainer tell us who it is. Who is omnipresent to restrain on the whole earth.

It means to guard by removal from the place of issue. In other words not there.

Since the whole earth is a place of issue you can't be on the earth to fulfill the meaning.

 

[CoreIssue]

God does test His children. Want scripture references?

Rev. 3:10 is directed to the Church at Philadelphia. There's no proof it implies the end-time church. There is no mention of a gathering. The phrase “the whole world,” doesn’t always mean “ALL OF THE EARTH.” It's presumed that to be protected FROM indicates a rapture. EK means 'out of.'

Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says...

The literal meaning "out of" cannot be attached to ek in a considerable number of passages. In several instances ek obviously has the significance of "away from";

The passage is saying they would be protected away from tribulation. NOT REMOVED from it by a rapture!.

I've listened to very respected and knowledgeable theologian/linguist discusses the issue.

They had no doubt in gave proof that the Greek means to guard or protect by removal from the place of concern. And they said in revelations 3:10 it absolutely means rapture.

Another source:

Foundations: Studies in Bible Theology

Is the analysis of this prepositional phrase conclusive? Perhaps not all by itself. But considered along with the other factors it leaves me quite convinced that the promise is made to believers IN GENERAL or UNIVERSALLY, and refers to a deliverance from the earth BEFORE the hour of trial, which is for the earth dwellers (unbelievers), arrives.

Kept Out Or Guarded In? – Grace thru faith

When ek is combined with tereo it forms the meaning of “guarding one by taking them out of, or away from” the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

Christian Apostasy: The Rapture-Revelation 3:10 Pre-Trib Rapture Confirmation

 

[CoreIssue]

Have you ever considered that pre-trib is the most fabricated teaching that has ever entered the Church? If all you do is listen to pre-tribbers, that's all you're going to believe. Pre-trib is deceitful. It is one fabrication after another. ( I counted 28!) Then as the contradictions arise, more fabrications come forth to cover up those contradictions.

You will be here to endure tribulation. The world will go bad, there will not be a one world government, religion, or anti-Christ global dictator. Nearly the entire prophetic scenario most Christians believe will NOT come to pass.

I became a pretribber after years of Bible study, not because somebody else told me to be.

After 57 years of study I am thoroughly convinced pretrib is the truth.

From the first seal on their is zero mention of the church on earth or Christian.

 

[CoreIssue]

And I keep telling you guys that it is! There is no mention of the Christian church in Revelation anyway! The word describes Churches in Asia Minor.

They are called saints, servants, fellow-servants, brethren, and martyrs, etc.
The church is the saints with whom the beast makes war with.
The Church is the dead who die in the Lord.
The church is the chosen (Christians) and faithful of ch. 17.
The church is the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
They are the great multitude, which no man could number!
They are the ones who have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb!
They are the ones who overcame the beast by the blood of the Lamb!
They are the ones who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ!
They are the ones who would not worship the image of the beast! I could go on!

The church is gone. The trib saints are not church or Christian.

 

[CoreIssue]

Trib saints are not Christian????
Trib saints is a term devised by pre-tribbers, and you fell for it line, hook, and sinker. There's not ONE verse that says Jesus returns BEFORE tribulation, or a verse that says a rapture happens before tribulation. Jesus said the gathering happens AFTER the tribulation and I believe him.

The rapture, snatching away, his pre-trib. The church is taken.

The harvest is at the second coming. The weeds, meaning those with the mark of the beast, are gathered and burned.

The gathering of Israel occurs at the beginning of the MK. This is where the Jews are gathered from the whole world back to Israel, sorted into their appropriate tribes, and begin the work of the new covenant to the houses of Judah and Israel.

In the rapture Christ comes as a thief in the night in the clouds, not to the earth and he is unseen by the people of the earth that are left behind.

As the second coming he leads an army from heaven unto the earth and all I see him.