Rapture and End Time Beliefs

[Keraz]

Clear to you? not to dispensationalists like me.

No; and why is that?
Isaiah 29:9-12 If you confuse yourself, you will stay confused.....the Words will be like a closed book to you.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 In the end times, many will believe fables.....

 

[farouk]

No; and why is that?
Isaiah 29:9-12 If you confuse yourself, you will stay confused.....the Words will be like a closed book to you.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 In the end times, many will believe fables.....

My point is not ad hominem to you, Sir - even though it may be yours to me - but on account of a dispensational framework which notices that the meeting in 1 Thess. 4 is in the air, not on earth, and it clearly involves the church. The day of the LORD often mentioned in the Old Testament, however, is indeed a matter which involves the execution of Divine wrath on earth.

 

[Naomi25]

Don't be sorry. I am not sorry.

(1 Cor. 15:23-26) is not addressing the Rapture.

Actually it does say that. (1 Cor. 15:51-53) is addressing the Rapture. As a result, (1 Cor. 15:54) , Death is swallowed up in victory.

It's nice that you think that these things apply to "not the Rapture" and "then the Rapture", but do you have anything other than your opinion to support it?
Why should we accept your opinion that "the end" that is spoken about in these verses, this "coming of Christ" and what will happen at it, are not the same event? There is nothing there that even alludes to the fact that they MIGHT be separate events. And yet you want us to accept, on nothing more than your word alone, that they are completely different things?

And you have not even addressed the fact that death cannot be "swallowed up in victory" by the Rapture alone. Death will still be a present reality on earth...therefore it is still thriving. Death can ONLY be fully defeated when death is no more. When will death be no more? When the eternal state arrives. This is simple fact, nothing more.

Oh, well, I take what you say with a little pinch of salt. Which means I don't make much of what you say. And (John 14:1-3) says it is in His Fathers house that Christ makes a place for us. That is our place.

Well, it's lovely you find my thoughts so flavorful. But it doesn't matter one way or the other what I say or think. We are discussing what Christ said. And the simple fact of the matter is, he said he was COMING for us, so that we would BE WITH him, WHERE he was.

You can't have it both ways. You can't have Christ COMING for us...out of heaven...but still calling us INTO heaven, if we are to go TO him.

The ONLY thing the text gives us absolute certainty to claim, is that where Jesus is, there we will be also. We know he will have come to receive us...but after that? Will he stay and renew the earth then? Will he return to heaven? That, is speculation and argument, based upon other texts. For you to insist that this text tells us we are whisked up to heaven, is for you to disregard that actual words used, and put in their place an idea instead.

Your point is wrong. Though all are saved by the blood of Christ does not mean they are all of the same body. What do you base this on?

Well, what do you base it on? You have this whole massive system that involves all these different segregations. Israel, Church, Trib saints. But what I read, is Paul, telling us that Christ has broken down every wall of division. I see Paul, telling us that the OT Saints were redeemed by faith, in point of fact. I see Paul telling us that NT Christians...the Church, are part of Abraham's family because we are in Christ. I see Paul telling us that Christ's redeeming sacrifice washed away the sins of those who believe in him...all who believe in him. And I see John, in Revelation, seeing a multitude standing before the throne, from every nation and tongue.
Everyone.
There is no segregation or division, except where you put it. Those saved by Christ, are the Bride of Christ. And should you wish to prove these divides, then perhaps you should be the one providing the verses.

I understand, you don't get it.

The New Jerusalem is the Bride. Where do you think I said it is not?

Stranger

Well, I suppose I assumed, which perhaps was wrong of me, when you insisted that the New Jerusalem was not all believers and was, in fact, a City.

 

[Stranger]

'Taken off the earth'? NOT what God has said at all.
Without going into the meanings of the Greek word 'terio ek', translated as 'keep', we know from many other prophesies that the Lord will protect His own during His terrible Day of wrath. Never does the Bible say the Church will be removed to heaven.

It means that you are deceived, as those theories are unbiblical. And if you promote them, you are a deceiver.

The Church are the Lord's faithful holy people. They are found throughout the Bible.
They have all been tried and tested before, why should God change His mind and remove the last generation?

But you are not paying attention. (Rev. 3:10) "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Who are brought under this trial? '...all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.' If you are on the earth at this time you will not be kept from this trial. The 144,000 are not kept from this trial. They are going through the trial but being preserved by God. The Church is kept from the trial.

No, the Church doesn't exist until (Acts 2). It will continue till the Rapture. Without the indwelling Holy Spirit, there is no Church or Body of Christ.

Where did God say there would be no Rapture so that you can say God changed His mind? God hasn't changed His mind just because there is a Rapture.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

I'm pleased to hear it. Why do you believe those things?
But for many, to reject the 'rapture' is to lose your friends and be evicted from your church. Not easy, as Jesus said: the Way is hard and few go along it.
Remember, we will all stand before Jesus in Judgement. Will He ask why we believed something He specifically taught against?

I believe them because I believe they are plainly taught in the Bible.

You're the one that labeled me a deceiver for holding to the Rapture. Apply your question to yourself.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

It's nice that you think that these things apply to "not the Rapture" and "then the Rapture", but do you have anything other than your opinion to support it?
Why should we accept your opinion that "the end" that is spoken about in these verses, this "coming of Christ" and what will happen at it, are not the same event? There is nothing there that even alludes to the fact that they MIGHT be separate events. And yet you want us to accept, on nothing more than your word alone, that they are completely different things?

And you have not even addressed the fact that death cannot be "swallowed up in victory" by the Rapture alone. Death will still be a present reality on earth...therefore it is still thriving. Death can ONLY be fully defeated when death is no more. When will death be no more? When the eternal state arrives. This is simple fact, nothing more.


Well, it's lovely you find my thoughts so flavorful. But it doesn't matter one way or the other what I say or think. We are discussing what Christ said. And the simple fact of the matter is, he said he was COMING for us, so that we would BE WITH him, WHERE he was.

You can't have it both ways. You can't have Christ COMING for us...out of heaven...but still calling us INTO heaven, if we are to go TO him.

The ONLY thing the text gives us absolute certainty to claim, is that where Jesus is, there we will be also. We know he will have come to receive us...but after that? Will he stay and renew the earth then? Will he return to heaven? That, is speculation and argument, based upon other texts. For you to insist that this text tells us we are whisked up to heaven, is for you to disregard that actual words used, and put in their place an idea instead.


Well, what do you base it on? You have this whole massive system that involves all these different segregations. Israel, Church, Trib saints. But what I read, is Paul, telling us that Christ has broken down every wall of division. I see Paul, telling us that the OT Saints were redeemed by faith, in point of fact. I see Paul telling us that NT Christians...the Church, are part of Abraham's family because we are in Christ. I see Paul telling us that Christ's redeeming sacrifice washed away the sins of those who believe in him...all who believe in him. And I see John, in Revelation, seeing a multitude standing before the throne, from every nation and tongue.
Everyone.
There is no segregation or division, except where you put it. Those saved by Christ, are the Bride of Christ. And should you wish to prove these divides, then perhaps you should be the one providing the verses.


Well, I suppose I assumed, which perhaps was wrong of me, when you insisted that the New Jerusalem was not all believers and was, in fact, a City.

You don't have to accept the dispensational view of the Scriptures. It is not my view alone. Just as yours is not yours alone. You have believed a certain theological system concerning end time events. Your system, which is the 'amillennial', I find to be untrustworthy due to it's allegorical and spiritual method of interpretation. So, because we use two different methods of interpreting, there will never be agreement between us.

Concerning (1 Cor. 15:22-26), the 'end' does not refer to the rapture. Nor does it refer to the Second Coming. It refers to the end when Christ delivers the Kingdom to the Father. (24) That is the 1000 year millennial Kingdom on earth. The Rapture and Second Coming of Christ will have taken place before the Kingdom reign. That is why Jesus Comes again, to reign on the earth.

I have no problem with death being totally defeated in the end. But with those who have been raptured, death is already defeated. It is swallowed up in victory. The believers have been with the Lord, and now have their bodies resurrected and are united back with them. I don't see why this is such a problem with you, other than you just don't want the Rapture to occur.

I find your words just as flavorful as you do mine. I don't know what your mean, 'I can't have it both ways'. The Rapture is the Rapture. The Second Coming is the Second Coming. With the Rapture believers are called out of the earth and taken up to meet the Lord. With the Second Coming Jesus comes all the way back to the earth. I can't have this with your theology. I certainly can with mine.

(John 14:1-3) shows our place is in Heaven. Does it not? In my quote that you gave, that is my point.

I am not going to sit here and type out the whole dispensational theological view for you. There are certain divisions between the believers in the Bible. Yes, they are all saved by faith. Yes, they are all saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. But let's look at only one division, which creates the most trouble, that is the Church and Israel.

The Church of Jesus Christ, His Body, has a beginning. That beginning is in (Acts 2) In no way could the Church ever have existed until that time as it took the Holy Spirit, that Spirit of Christ, to come in order to create that mystical Body. That couldn't occur until after the resurrection of Christ. That is why Jesus said the Church He was building was yet future during His earthly ministry. (Matt. 16:18) "I will build my church".

I do believe that the New Jerusalem is a city and the Bride of Christ. I do not believe it consists of all believers. A new heaven and a new earth exist. Israel is still Israel with an earthly inheritance and the Church is the Church with a heavenly inheritance.

Stranger

 

[Keraz]

I believe them because I believe they are plainly taught in the Bible.

You're the one that labeled me a deceiver for holding to the Rapture. Apply your question to yourself.

Stranger

I know that there is no verse in the Bible that says God will take His people up to heaven. It is far from being plain!
Many verses either say such a thing is impossible, or give us what God actually does plan for our future.

You try to prove a 'rapture' with Revelation 3:10.
This verse, addressed to the Church at Philadelphia, is for those who keep the Lord's Command to stand firm in their faith when the great ordeal comes to test the whole world. 1 Peter 4:12 plainly says that ordeal will test us.
Your 'rapture to heaven' is nothing but a Satanic lie and the sooner you renounce it the better it will be for you.

 

[Stranger]

I know that there is no verse in the Bible that says God will take His people up to heaven. It is far from being plain!
Many verses either say such a thing is impossible, or give us what God actually does plan for our future.

You try to prove a 'rapture' with Revelation 3:10.
This verse, addressed to the Church at Philadelphia, is for those who keep the Lord's Command to stand firm in their faith when the great ordeal comes to test the whole world. 1 Peter 4:12 plainly says that ordeal will test us.
Your 'rapture to heaven' is nothing but a Satanic lie and the sooner you renounce it the better it will be for you.

(1 Thess. 4:16-17) plainly teaches the Rapture of the Church.

No verses in the Bible say such a thing is impossible. Was it impossible for Enoch or Elijah?

(Rev. 3:10) is further prove of the Rapture. It proves you wrong when you say God would not remove His people from trials or persecutions. (1 Peter 4:12) is not addressing the Tribulation.

Save your breath oh pious one.

Stranger

 

[Naomi25]

You don't have to accept the dispensational view of the Scriptures. It is not my view alone. Just as yours is not yours alone. You have believed a certain theological system concerning end time events. Your system, which is the 'amillennial', I find to be untrustworthy due to it's allegorical and spiritual method of interpretation. So, because we use two different methods of interpreting, there will never be agreement between us.

Ah, the bane of the label! I think you guys like tossing the "spiritualizing" label at us, just as we like tossing the "over literal" label at you. And yet the startling truth is, we are not so different. You recognize that the bible clearly calls for times when we must spiritualize or read things as allegory, and we also realize that there are massive parts of scripture that must be read 'literally'. Of course, we believe all of it to be unflinchingly true, that is not in question. The real division is where we find those parts that have to be read in those different ways....usually Revelation.
And no...probably there will not be be agreement there between us!

Concerning (1 Cor. 15:22-26), the 'end' does not refer to the rapture. Nor does it refer to the Second Coming. It refers to the end when Christ delivers the Kingdom to the Father. (24) That is the 1000 year millennial Kingdom on earth. The Rapture and Second Coming of Christ will have taken place before the Kingdom reign. That is why Jesus Comes again, to reign on the earth.

Except...if, in verses 22-24, the 'end' being talked about, is in specific reference to our recieving new bodies exactly like Christ...who was the firstfruits...then how can you not link it with the Rapture, which it also goes on to speak about in verses 50-55?
The most logical reading of these verses, is that it is all one and the same event, not separated by any time, gap or even Kingdom. Hence, why I am Amil.
Again and again we see that when Christ's return is talked about, it is talked about as a single event: he comes and we are given new bodies, death is defeated, the dead are raised, the wicked and just are judged, and the old heavens and earth pass away in fire, and the new come. When you read all these passages, you can only "see" other time gaps and inserted kingdoms, if you already put them there, or assume they have to be there. The texts themselves do not state it. They only state that upon Christ's return (which is only labeled as 'his coming'...not coming 1, or coming 2), these things will happen then.

I have no problem with death being totally defeated in the end. But with those who have been raptured, death is already defeated. It is swallowed up in victory. The believers have been with the Lord, and now have their bodies resurrected and are united back with them. I don't see why this is such a problem with you, other than you just don't want the Rapture to occur.

No, that's not a problem with me, except that's not really what the text says. It says that death itself is defeated, not that it is defeated for believers. It says that death itself has been so completely defeated that it, along with every other enemy Christ has defeat, it may be put completely under his feet, and then given to the Father, so the Father may be all in all.
If the text was just talking about a believers individual defeat of death at the Rapture, then, to a point, couldn't we say death is already defeated? Christ being the firstfruits? But how, in any way, shape or form, is death completely defeated? We know, abolutely, that it will be, thanks to Christ's victory on the cross and his resurrection. That is what his firstfruits means...ultimate victory over death...complete victory. But until death is NO more, at all, that victory is not complete.
So, while for Raptured believers that state might be true, in your end times view, death will be rampant upon the earth for 7 years more...and then even on into the Millennium.

And as far as "not wanting the Rapture to occur"...well, I know there's no real way to get to know a person very well online like this, but to be perfectly honest, I'd love it if the Pre-trib Rapture were true. It's like the nice, fairy tale version of things. "Be whisked away to heaven before any potential bad stuff happens". For anyone who struggles in life...and let's face it, most people do in some shape or form...that's a tempting idea. To suddenly see Jesus calling you upwards?
Buth here's the thing: as much as I'd love to jump on that band wagon, I cannot and feel I'm being faithful to scripture. It's that simple.

I find your words just as flavorful as you do mine. I don't know what your mean, 'I can't have it both ways'. The Rapture is the Rapture. The Second Coming is the Second Coming. With the Rapture believers are called out of the earth and taken up to meet the Lord. With the Second Coming Jesus comes all the way back to the earth. I can't have this with your theology. I certainly can with mine.

You say the Rapture is the Rapture, and The Second Coming is the Second Coming, but as far as I can see, all you have to separate the two in the various passages and verses, is your say so. There is no verse that specifically states that in the Rapture Christ only comes part way, but then pops back to heaven with everyone, or any other passage that again reiterates that in a second, distinct coming, he comes and makes an 'actual touchdown'. You separate the comings, based upon what you already think will happen on 'each' occasion, seemingly disregarding the fact that these verses, when they speak of his return, they do not in any shape or form, speak of separate events. At least...I have yet to see a single, convincing verse or argument for that. Mostly, I just see people pushing assumptions, regardless how many verses are counter-prestened.

(John 14:1-3) shows our place is in Heaven. Does it not? In my quote that you gave, that is my point.

Okay...true...the place Christ is currently preparing for us in heaven. But...that's not all the the passage teaches and talks about. We know that this place that he is preparing for us, is not meant to stay in heaven...the New Jerusalem is meant for earth.
If we look at Revelation 20:11-15, we see that just before the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven, the dead are raised and judged. And then Death itself is thrown into the lake of fire. This, we can suppose, is the final defeat of death. These two things: the judgement of people, and the defeat of death, we see in Matt 25 and 1 Cor 15 as happening "at his coming".
So, if the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven right after Christ's "coming", then it's not outside of a literal reading of scripture, which I would think you should appreciate, that John 14 is indeed speaking of Christ, upon his return, leaving heaven to "come get us", that he does not, indeed, take up back up into heaven. When he returns, he raises the dead, judges the wicked and makes all things new: including bringing with him the place he has prepared for us while he has been with the Father.

And while you may heartily disagree with this interpretation, it is just as true...I would argue more so...to the texts in question, especially if we are intent on reading these texts as literally as possible.

I am not going to sit here and type out the whole dispensational theological view for you. There are certain divisions between the believers in the Bible. Yes, they are all saved by faith. Yes, they are all saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. But let's look at only one division, which creates the most trouble, that is the Church and Israel.

The Church of Jesus Christ, His Body, has a beginning. That beginning is in (Acts 2) In no way could the Church ever have existed until that time as it took the Holy Spirit, that Spirit of Christ, to come in order to create that mystical Body. That couldn't occur until after the resurrection of Christ. That is why Jesus said the Church He was building was yet future during His earthly ministry. (Matt. 16:18) "I will build my church".

Yes, it is true the "Church" had a beginning. And it is true that we are blessed to have seen and known things the OT elect couldn't know. However, you said it yourself, all are still redeemed by the blood of Christ. That is the only way man can be saved. That fundamentally means we are all bought by Christ and belong to him. So, unless you can provide some pretty convincing bible verses that show how and why God has put these divisions in place, I just don't see the bible teaching them.

I do believe that the New Jerusalem is a city and the Bride of Christ. I do not believe it consists of all believers. A new heaven and a new earth exist. Israel is still Israel with an earthly inheritance and the Church is the Church with a heavenly inheritance.

Stranger

Mmm. Again, I'm not sure where you get that, biblically. Sure, I see the promises to Israel that involve the land. But I also see the NT telling us that all promises were fulfilled...found their yes and amen in Christ. Israel recieves their blessings, their inheritance, through Abrahams true seed...Jesus. And Jesus inherits everything: not just the earthly throne, but all heaven and earth.

 

[Stranger]

Naomi25

Concerning 'the end' in (1 Cor. 24), it clearly is described as when Christ delivers the kingdom to God the Father. "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;" The Kingdom is the Kingdom reign of Christ on earth. It has to exist before it ends. You want to say it is just one big event yet how much time is there between Christ being raised and his coming again? Irregardless whether you see His coming here as the Rapture or the Second coming, it has been over 2000 years. Or are you opposed to that also as an Amil?

Concerning death being defeated, it was defeated first of all by Christ at His resurrection. Just like satan was defeated at the Cross and Resurrection also. Though defeated satan still exist and the plan of God plays out. What (1 Cor. 15:54) says is, "...Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" It is a glorious taunt at death due to the resurrection and translation of the believers that occurred in (51-53).

Concerning the New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven, that does not occur at the same time as the Second Coming of Christ. After Christ returns there then is the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom. (Rev. 20:4-5) You then have satan's final rebellion that takes place. (Rev. 20:7-10). Then the judgments you spoke of in (Rev. 20:11-15). Concerning your 'literal reading' of (John 14:1-3) and all of this occurring at the same time, you have to first ignore the literal reading of a thousand year rule by Christ.

Concerning the Church, you agree it started in (Acts 2). That means it did not exist before (Acts 2). Just being saved by Christ's blood, is not always that which includes one into the Church. It is at this time, yes. Any who come to Christ are born-again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit and part of the Church. It is particularly the work of the Holy Spirit, with Christ's Spirit, that forms the Body of Christ. In other words the Church has the very Spirit of Christ in them which forms the mystical Body of Christ. Once the Church is removed, at the Rapture, those that are saved on earth are still saved by the blood and sacrifice of Christ, but are not part of the indwelling Spirit of Christ. Not part of the Body of Christ. See (Rom. 8:9)

Concerning the New Jerusalem being the Church, see (Rev. 21:9-10). The Church is the Bride of Jesus Christ. The New Jerusalem is only a part of what all exists at this time. You have the new Heaven and new Earth. (21:1) What is the physical Earth for? It is for Israel to whom the promise of inheritance of it was given eternally. So, of course both Israel and the Church have a relationship with Christ and Christ inherits all things. But Israel is not the Bride of Christ. Christ is her Messiah. That Messiah has a wife, the Church.

Stranger

 

[n2thelight]

(1 Thess. 4:16-17) plainly teaches the Rapture of the Church.

No verses in the Bible say such a thing is impossible. Was it impossible for Enoch or Elijah?

(Rev. 3:10) is further prove of the Rapture. It proves you wrong when you say God would not remove His people from trials or persecutions. (1 Peter 4:12) is not addressing the Tribulation.

Save your breath oh pious one.

Stranger

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

The Lord is going to descend, at the seventh trump [the last trump]. Why will the dead in Christ rise first? Because they are already there, and with Him. All we have to do now is go to the book of Revelation, and find out in detail when this will be. We find out what events will occur just prior to this seventh trump sounding, and then when we see these certain events taking place before our eyes, we will know our Lord will return to earth next. Then the trump will sound, and the gathering will take place, and we will be changed from our flesh bodies to our spiritual bodies. And not one day before.

Many people have images of massive numbers of people flying away, with all sorts of accidents taking place; however, the Bible doesn't tell us it will be in that manner. In Revelation 11, it tells us exactly three and a half days prior what will happen, and the whole world will know about it, for it is no hidden mystery. That is when the Antichrist will end his reign by killing God's two witnesses, and send the world into a three and a half day party of celebration.

In Revelation 11 the world will know the two witnesses, for the disruption they have caused, and the world will watch as they are killed, and their dead bodies are put on display in a wide street [arena]. Are you still looking for a rapture, well my friend, at the end of the three and half day period it will be a time of great shame for you, For as Revelation 9:4 points out, the truth will not be sealed in your mind, and God is going to turn you over to Antichrist. The "rapture theory", could be the death warrant of your very soul, or a commitment of your soul to great shame. If you believe in the "Rapture theory" you will be on the side of Antichrist, and will fly with anyone, because you just don't understand the Word of God.

Remember, Two bodies will be in the streets of Jerusalem for three days, causing a world wide massive party...that is your warning just before Jesus Christ return to this earth. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Revelation 11:9; "And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves."

They simple do not want these bodies to come alive, or claim life when they in fact are dead. The world is witness to the corps of the two bodies. And they will think of all the damage these two prophets did to their crops and property; and most of all, the insults the witnesses gave this first Christ {Antichrist}, whom they all believed to be Jesus. Antichrist did as their rapture theory promised it would do. They got their wing's all right, straight to Satan's camp.

Revelation 11:10; "And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."

The torment the two gave the world was naming the Antichrist, Satan. This was unthinkable, for their traditions taught them otherwise.

Revelation 11:11; "And after three and an half [days] the spirit [breath] of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them."

Did you catch the time frame here? It's three and a half days following the death of two witnesses that the world will rejoice over their death.

When the whole world celebrates, you better be getting ready to meet your maker. Friend, the only flying out of here is by the two witnesses, and it is recorded here. God's elect will be changed here at this time.

Revelation 11:12; "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them [two witnesses], Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."

There is no secret to this rapture, of two, for who are their enemies? Those who were against God's two witnesses.

Revelation 11:13; "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

This is Satan, and his fallen angels [that locust army of Revelation 9] that were caste out with him.

The remnent who gave God the glory, are God's elect, and those who are sealed of God, including the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel. Those are the ones chosen to stand against the Antichrist, and only them. The traditions of men will be preached right up to the seventh trump. What happens then at the seventh trump? Well, that is what First Thessalonians 4 is all about. "The gathering back to Christ at the seventh trumpet".

Revelation 11:14-15; "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly."[verse 14] "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The Kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." [verse 15] THIS IS THE SEVENTH TRUMP.

You, as a Christian now know exactly what is to transpire for three and a half days prior to the sounding of the seventh trump. You will see the murder of the two witnesses, observe the massive celebration, and then be changed to another form before Christ returns to this earth. It's all in God's holy plan, and Paul, John, Peter, Mark, Luke as well as Jesus certainly do not want you ignorant of these facts.

There is no FLY AWAY, no dodging of the tribulation of the Antichrist and his system's deceptions, but Christ will come and establish His kingdom on earth, and you will see it in your spiritual body. Got it?

Now what about the clouds, and the air? The "clouds" are in reference to a large gathering of people, as Paul used else where also. While the "air" spoken of here, in the Greek is "breath of life"; we will meet Jesus Christ in our "breath of life bodies, or spiritual bodies". That is the mystery Paul spoke of in I Corinthians 15:50-54.

Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation [trial], which shall [that hour that is to] come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

This is the first day of the Millennium, and all mankind, of every race and nation will bow a Jesus Christ's feet, including the Kenites. All will be so overwhelmed by the events taking place, all will bow on that day to Him.

The people in the Philadelphia church knew the order that the two "morning stars" would appear, and waited for the true morning star, Jesus Christ. They held fast in the "hour of temptation", when the people of the entire world were tried and chased after the false star, the Antichrist.

Revelation 3:11 "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

You will have a special crown if you are able to understand God's Word, and not bow to the Antichrist, nor take his name or his number, or his system.

Revelation 3:12 "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Je-ru'-sa-lem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

The "pillar" is what supports the church, the true temple. These pillars, or believers, will be what Jesus builds his Millennium kingdom around. Once you overcome in this age, your position in Christ's kingdom is an eternal position that God set aside just for you. You are important where it counts, in God's kingdom.

The "new name" is written in Isaiah 62:4, "my delight is in her", that's the new name. "Her"being the bride of Christ. In the Hebrew, her name is "Heph-zi-bah". The name for this new city is called "Beu-lah land".

revelation3

I don't see a rapture in either verses you quoted...

 

[farouk]

(1 Thess. 4:16-17) plainly teaches the Rapture of the Church.

No verses in the Bible say such a thing is impossible. Was it impossible for Enoch or Elijah?

(Rev. 3:10) is further prove of the Rapture. It proves you wrong when you say God would not remove His people from trials or persecutions. (1 Peter 4:12) is not addressing the Tribulation.

Save your breath oh pious one.

Stranger

Yes, 1 Thess. 4 plainly indicates the Rapture.

 

[Taken]

~~~~~~R~A~P~T~U~R~E~~~~~

Anyone Here Converted, a Member of Christ's Church....Rapture Ready?

Glory to God,
Merry Christmas,
Taken

 

[farouk]

LOL....no tats....I would consider it then...

PS: So did you really ever consider a bit of ink?

 

[Keraz]

Yes, 1 Thess. 4 plainly indicates the Rapture.

That verse is a prophecy of how those who remain alive when Jesus Returns will be transported to where He is, that is: in the clouds, then to Jerusalem. Matthew 24:30-31 tells us exactly what will happen.
It happens after the Great Tribulation and Jesus has come from heaven, so He does not go back to heaven then, He commences His Millennium reign.
I suggest that all the 'rapture to heaven' believers read very carefully what Jesus will do at His Return. Matthew 25:31-46
Plainly, we must continue to do the works allotted to each of us according to our abilities and situation, to receive the commendation of: Well done, you good and faithful servant.....Matthew 25:23

We must keep strong in our faith during all the testing times coming, but the belief in a 'rapture' leads to complacency and many will fail the test when it comes. 1 Peter 4:12, Revelation 13:10 & 14:12

 

[Stranger]

That verse is a prophecy of how those who remain alive when Jesus Returns will be transported to where He is, that is: in the clouds, then to Jerusalem. Matthew 24:30-31 tells us exactly what will happen.
It happens after the Great Tribulation and Jesus has come from heaven, so He does not go back to heaven then, He commences His Millennium reign.
I suggest that all the 'rapture to heaven' believers read very carefully what Jesus will do at His Return. Matthew 25:31-46
Plainly, we must continue to do the works allotted to each of us according to our abilities and situation, to receive the commendation of: Well done, you good and faithful servant.....Matthew 25:23

We must keep strong in our faith during all the testing times coming, but the belief in a 'rapture' leads to complacency and many will fail the test when it comes. 1 Peter 4:12, Revelation 13:10 & 14:12

(Rev. 3:10) "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth"

Stranger

 

[Keraz]

(Rev. 3:10) "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth"

Stranger

Another verse that in no way proves a 'rapture to heaven'.
Luke 21:35 says; the Day of trial will come upon everyone, the whole world over. So people are not removed, but protected, as we are told in many prophesies and shown in the story of the 3 men in the furnace.

 

[rockytopva]

1. Christ comes as a thief
2. In an hour we think not
3. In times likened to Noah
4. In times likened to Lot

Instead of brimstone or a flood we will have a tribulation. But... The saints will be delivered, likened unto Noah, likened unto Lot. So, be ready for it... Christ could come today!

 

[CoreIssue]

That verse is a prophecy of how those who remain alive when Jesus Returns will be transported to where He is, that is: in the clouds, then to Jerusalem. Matthew 24:30-31 tells us exactly what will happen.
It happens after the Great Tribulation and Jesus has come from heaven, so He does not go back to heaven then, He commences His Millennium reign.
I suggest that all the 'rapture to heaven' believers read very carefully what Jesus will do at His Return. Matthew 25:31-46
Plainly, we must continue to do the works allotted to each of us according to our abilities and situation, to receive the commendation of: Well done, you good and faithful servant.....Matthew 25:23

We must keep strong in our faith during all the testing times coming, but the belief in a 'rapture' leads to complacency and many will fail the test when it comes. 1 Peter 4:12, Revelation 13:10 & 14:12

 

[Mayflower]

1. Christ comes as a thief
2. In an hour we think not
3. In times likened to Noah
4. In times likened to Lot

Instead of brimstone or a flood we will have a tribulation. But... The saints will be delivered, likened unto Noah, likened unto Lot. So, be ready for it... Christ could come today!

I didn't think about it like this!!!! Great way to explain what I believe and why. Thanks!!!

I would add:

5. When the Holy Spirit leaves
6.He'll take those who believe