Rapture ... soon?

[rwb]

I can't make sense of what you're saying. I asked where scripture indicates that the devil, Satan, was created to be evil. Can you acknowledge that it never says that? Scripture indicates that God called what He created good (or very good), not evil.

I stated this in a way that even a small child could understand. Isn't the truth that because you are convinced that Satan was created an angel of God and became this evil Satan the reason you refuse to receive what I have plainly stated?

 

[WPM]

That was not my intention, which is why I said "IMO".

For a couple of posts you have threw that charge at all those who are questioning TS. It seems like you think he is vulnerable.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I was with you until you say "satan is a fallen angel/spirit.

No I do NOT deny Satan is spirit, not a spirit, but spirit.
The only personhood that Satan can and does achieve is when he takes up residence within the hearts and minds of humans.

He us a fallen angel.

He does not personally inhabit humans.
His demons do that.
He travels.
If he was stuck in a single human, he could run his wicked show.

 

[WPM]

I was with you until you say "satan is a fallen angel/spirit.

No I do NOT deny Satan is spirit, not a spirit, but spirit.
The only personhood that Satan can and does achieve is when he takes up residence within the hearts and minds of humans.

Explain this. So he is not an evil angel? He is not an entity separate from man? Is he just an influence? Or, is Satan abstract "conscience" or the innate "evil spirit" of unregenerate man?

 

[rebuilder 454]

I stated this in a way that even a small child could understand. Isn't the truth that because you are convinced that Satan was created an angel of God and became this evil Satan the reason you refuse to receive what I have plainly stated?

I would agree with S I.
He is of course a fallen angel.

 

[Randy Kluth]

That is not what 2 Thess. 2 says, that is just your interpretation. The passage clearly is about the DEPARTURE of the Church from a standing on this earth, not from the Faith. You do not even get what comes first means here. Its not that the AC must come first before the Rapture, its that BOTH the Departure & The Man of Sin has to show up BEFORE the Wrath of God can fall. That is the subject, the Thessalonians were in fear that they were in the DOTL, and Paul tells them to not fear being in Gods Wrath (which starts on day 1260) because before that Wrath to come can come, both the Rapture (Gathering together unto Christ in vs. 1) and the Man of Sin MUST SHOW UP BEFORE God's Wrath can fall.

This is so simple I have to believe by now people understand this and just want to cling to an untruth because its been around so long and people have bought it for so long they are bashful about admitting how erroneous they were.

The Man of Sin and Israel make this Agreement that starts the 70th week and the Rapture all at the same time. Israel simply joins the E.U. that is the Agreement/Covenant they enter into. From that point forward you will see like One Billion Christians die, like a plague, except its just the Raptured Souls being taken to heaven. No one just disappears.

I suppose you have to believe what your pre-conceived theology tells you to believe. That may apply to me, as well.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I suppose you have to believe what your pre-conceived theology tells you to believe. That may apply to me, as well.

Everyone's theology is preconceived.

Try and sway them away from their preconceived beliefs.

The crux of the issue is , do they line up biblically.

 

[WPM]

I was with you until you say "satan is a fallen angel/spirit.

No I do NOT deny Satan is spirit, not a spirit, but spirit.
The only personhood that Satan can and does achieve is when he takes up residence within the hearts and minds of humans.

Do you believe there is such a thing as elect angels? If, so can you describe what they are and what they do? If not, can you describe what they are and what they represent?

 

[rwb]

I would agree with S I.
He is of course a fallen angel.

That's the traditional understanding, handed down through the ages with no biblical proof that Satan was a good angel before becoming evil.

 

[rwb]

Do you believe there is such a thing as elect angels? If, so can you describe what they are and what they do? If not, can you describe what they are and what they represent?

How do you define elect angels? Are you speaking of celestial spirit beings in heaven observing things of the earth? Do they belong to the ministering spirits from the letter to the Hebrews speaking of the angels of God saying "And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire." And "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?" Those angels that rejoice over one sinner that repents?

1 Timothy 5:21-23 (KJV) I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure. Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Revelation 12:12 (KJV) Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Luke 15:10 (KJV) Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

Timothy appears to be charging the Church on earth before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, as well as His angels in heaven (spirit beings) that they should commit to his words and remain pure in thought, word and deed.

The spirit angels of God worship and serve the Lord in whatsoever tasks they are assigned.

 

[WPM]

How do you define elect angels? Are you speaking of celestial spirit beings in heaven observing things of the earth? Do they belong to the ministering spirits from the letter to the Hebrews speaking of the angels of God saying "And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire." And "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?" Those angels that rejoice over one sinner that repents?

1 Timothy 5:21-23 (KJV) I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure. Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Revelation 12:12 (KJV) Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Luke 15:10 (KJV) Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

Timothy appears to be charging the Church on earth before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, as well as His angels in heaven (spirit beings) that they should commit to his words and remain pure in thought, word and deed.

The spirit angels of God worship and serve the Lord in whatsoever tasks they are assigned.

Who are they? Are they angelic? Are they heavenly beings? Are they created? When? Are they human?

 

[rwb]

For a couple of posts you have threw that charge at all those who are questioning TS. It seems like you think he is vulnerable.

What I've sensed in this thread are some, who are provoking and slandering not only what TS is saying, but also making charges against his character. This goes too far! Early on the thought was revealed that he has learned from Tony Warren, and one even went so far (if memory serves me) as to say TW is an apostate. For that cause it is assumed nothing TS has to say could possibly be truth. I too have learned a great deal from the articles written by TW and many others at Mountain Retreat, and like TS, I also confirm through the Word of God myself whether what I have read aligns with the Bible.

There is great misunderstanding over the doctrine of angels and demonic spirits. Much of which comes through tradition, and misapplying verses spoken of MAN as being about the fall of Satan.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Do you believe there is such a thing as elect angels? If, so can you describe what they are and what they do? If not, can you describe what they are and what they represent?

1Ti 5:17-22
(17) Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
(18) For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
(19) Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
(20) Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
(21) I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
(22) Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

The elect angels are elect messengers. They are literally the chosen messengers with the ministering spirits. God, Christ and the messengers who minister to the Saints. They are Christians. Not some celestial created beings as most common belief.

 

[WPM]

What I've sensed in this thread are some, who are provoking and slandering not only what TS is saying, but also making charges against his character. This goes too far! Early on the thought was revealed that he has learned from Tony Warren, and one even went so far (if memory serves me) as to say TW is an apostate. For that cause it is assumed nothing TS has to say could possibly be truth. I too have learned a great deal from the articles written by TW and many others at Mountain Retreat, and like TS, I also confirm through the Word of God myself whether what I have read aligns with the Bible.

There is great misunderstanding over the doctrine of angels and demonic spirits. Much of which comes through tradition, and misapplying verses spoken of MAN as being about the fall of Satan.

I didn't do any of this. Why are you so defensive?

Can you answer my questions?

 

[WPM]

1Ti 5:17-22
(17) Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
(18) For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
(19) Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
(20) Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
(21) I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without

So, in your own words, who are Satan and his demons?

 

[rwb]

Who are they? Are they angelic? Are they heavenly beings? Are they created? When? Are they human?

I think we get a clearer picture of angels when we think of them as "messengers" of God that can be spirit or human. The context helps us to determine which. John the Baptist for instance was a messenger of God. The messenger of Satan was sent to fight against Paul. Both instances the word 'messenger' is translated from the Greek word angelos/angel. These are both spirit beings using humans to bring about their purposes.

A messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:—angel, messenger.

Luke 7:27 (KJV) This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger (angelos) before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

2 Corinthians 12:7 (KJV) And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger (angelos) of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

 

[TribulationSigns]

LOL. Have you ever seen a baby tell a lie? I'm sure you have not. So, you are once again proving how you just can't be taken seriously. You just say things that make no sense whatsoever.


Good grief. Do you have no discernment at all? Babies are not capable of telling lies. Think! What that is saying is what other scripture says which is that people are born with a sinful nature, but people don't actually sin until they know what sin is. As Paul taught, he did not become dead in sins until he knew what sin was by way of the law.

Romans 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.

You need to learn how to interpret scripture in context. It's funny how you take that passage from Psalm 58:3-4 so literally when you normally try to symbolize everything you can. Please ask God for wisdom so that you can start understanding scripture in the right context.


So, if what you were saying here was true then you are saying that Cain is the devil. Can you not make up your mind who the devil is? Before, you said the devil is the spirit of disobedience in man. Now, you're saying that the devil is Cain because you are associating the devil with the one who every unbeliever has as their father. Whenever you make a final decision about who or what you actually think the devil, Satan, is, then let me know. For now, it looks like you think the devil is Cain. Which is, of course, wrong.

LOL. Have you ever seen a baby tell a lie? I'm sure you have not.

Death reigned over "all," including babies, because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Period! Not "all except babies", but ALL! That can mean nothing less. Children are culpable for sin the moment that they draw their first breath, and are thus "accountable" for sin like every other human being that takes the breath of life. Thus, they are not "innocent" and they need a Saviour as much as you or I do.

Romans 5:14

• "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

By one man came death, by one man must come life. Liability means accountability. Sure, children may not know certain things (neither do adults), and be naive (so are adults), but "innocent" they are NOT. And they never have been. For the spiritual corruption in our nature passed on by Adam causes sin that extends to every part of our soul and body, so that we are (even as babies) desperately wicked to a "righteous God." In fact, on a baby's best day his righteousness is as filthy rags to a Holy God. So a few misunderstood scriptures does not a doctrine make, but "all" scriptures taken in conjunction with all "other scriptures" in harmony one with the other. Meaning, children are sinners, wicked, and assuredly not little innocents. And to a Holy God they are equated to a bunch of little snakes.

I realize that this issues that make you squirm, but I also realize that this is because Christians are still wrapped in a robe of flesh, that they still cling to the flesh, "knowing in part," not as God knows.
Psa 58:2-4
(2) Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
(3) The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
(4) Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

Rom 3:10-13
(10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
(11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
(12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
(13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

Do you understand what God is saying? In God's eyes, man from the womb is as a poisonous asp or serpent to God. TO GOD! Not to you! There is absolutely no good at all in mankind, only the perversion of what God initended for him.

Next!

So, if what you were saying here was true then you are saying that Cain is the devil. Can you not make up your mind who the devil is? Before, you said the devil is the spirit of disobedience in man. Now, you're saying that the devil is Cain because you are associating the devil with the one who every unbeliever has as their father. Whenever you make a final decision about who or what you actually think the devil, Satan, is, then let me know. For now, it looks like you think the devil is Cain. Which is, of course, wrong.

Who is wrong? You or God?

Joh 6:70-71
(70) Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
(71) He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

In God's eye, Judas "IS" the devil because he has the spirt of disobedience.

Next!

 

[WPM]

How do you define elect angels? Are you speaking of celestial spirit beings in heaven observing things of the earth? Do they belong to the ministering spirits from the letter to the Hebrews speaking of the angels of God saying "And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire." And "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?" Those angels that rejoice over one sinner that repents?

1 Timothy 5:21-23 (KJV) I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure. Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Revelation 12:12 (KJV) Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Luke 15:10 (KJV) Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

Timothy appears to be charging the Church on earth before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, as well as His angels in heaven (spirit beings) that they should commit to his words and remain pure in thought, word and deed.

The spirit angels of God worship and serve the Lord in whatsoever tasks they are assigned.

The Bible distinguishes between angels and men. They are different. They are distinct. Angels are heavenly beings that are sent on assignment from God to serve His purposes, and protect His servants. They operate in the invisible realm.

Psa 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Psa 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

In heaven, God's elect are distinguished from the angels:

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Jesus taught:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Are humans coming to gather us at the second coming?

Ephesians 6:12 tells us what we do not fight against, then tells us what we do fight against.

• It tells us: “we wrestle not against flesh and blood.” This is talking about humans.
• It then tells us that we wrestle “against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”

If you find yourself focused on a human or human beings you are already missing the target. We are not fighting a natural physical holy war today against humans like they did in the Old Testament. We are exclusively fighting a spiritual war in the heavenlies. We are not fighting with carnal power or human ingenuity. We are not fighting politicians and governments.

 

[rwb]

I didn't do any of this. Why are you so defensive?

Can you answer my questions?

I'm defensive (1) because some of the hostility is toward myself also (2) it troubles me when Christians attack one another. I also don't like it because I too have a tendency to return evil with evil, and I really don't want to do that. I've tried to answer your questions. Rather than asking more questions make me and whosoever PROVE what we allege from the Bible. If I haven't proven what I believe, it would be helpful to all if you and others could show me how I have not.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

I suppose you have to believe what your pre-conceived theology tells you to believe. That may apply to me, as well.

No, I follow the holy spirit and love correction, it means I know I then get the 100% correct answer. But that has nothing to do with the point above, you might believe in a Pre Trib. or not in a Pre Trib. that would be irrelevant to my point above. (It is pre trib. because it is, that however has no bearing on the point)

You see, you somehow get that the AC must show up before the Rapture. I can prove 100% that is not what the above says. It says the Departure of the Church OR from the Faith as you suppose it is, AND the Man of Sin must show up BEFORE the Wrath of God. You see, that could still get you to a non pre 70th Wrath Rapture. The whole point is you are arguing a point that is a non point, the passage never says the Man of Sin must come before the Rapture, it says that the Departure from this Earth and the Man of Sin must both happen before the Wrath Falls.

2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech(ask Urgently) you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (So, via the Rapture or Gathering together unto Christ, Paul tells the Thessalonians that he asks them very urgently to.......SEE VS. 2..........Not fear in any manner whatsoever, that the Day of the Lord/God's Wrath is AT HAND.......Don't do it !! Do not fear and why? Verse 1b told us, via the Gathering unto Christ Jesus)

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come(What day? The 1260 DOTL or Wrath of God at the 1260), except there come a falling away(Departure of the Church UNTO Christ) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I do not see how anyone, even a babe in Christ could get this wrong, maybe that is why you gave the quick quip reply. For THAT DAY....The Wrath you THIN YOU ARE IN..........cannot come until the Church Departs AND the Man of Sin is revealed. Nowhere does it even hint the Man of Sin must come before the Church Departs. It says the Church must depart AND the Man of Sin must happen BEFORE the DOTL or God's Wrath falls.

So way you go yourself all twisted up up brother, on this timing.