Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[Keraz]

The same problem here. If you really were searching you would have found it. I and others have pointed it out before

The thing with the belief of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church is; that with that idea in mind, verses can be found that seem to support it.
But what really refutes it, is the many prophesies that tell about how the Lord's faithful people will be gathered into all of the holy Land during the end times. This is proved by how they are there when the AC takes over for the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. Daniel 7:23, Rev 13:7

Re apostasia; obviously your 'experts' are 'rapture' believers, there are plenty of other scholars who do not think it means 'gathering or removal'.
So to hold it up as a 'rapture' proof, is contentious to say the least.

It is not God who split up Israel, but evil men.

Making assertions like this, makes you look very silly, as proof that it was God's doing is found in 1 Kings 12:24.

I guess Ezra was just smoking some desert weed to call the group he brought back from Babylon Jews 9 times and all Israel 40 times. And Nehemiah got into the same wacky weed to call his group Jews 11 times and all Israel 22 times.

For starters, this is an unbecoming comment, made so as to ridicule another person. Quite inappropriate.
That the people who were conquered and taken to Babylon for 70 years, were the House of Judah, is indisputable. That there were a few from the other tribes and aliens, does not change the fact they were all Jews, by religion and assimilation. They were also Israelites, as a part of all Israel.

The Northern ten tribes did not and have not yet, rejoined with their kinsmen, Ezekiel 37 has not happened yet.

 

[Copperhead]

The thing with the belief of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church is; that with that idea in mind, verses can be found that seem to support it.
But what really refutes it, is the many prophesies that tell about how the Lord's faithful people will be gathered into all of the holy Land during the end times. This is proved by how they are there when the AC takes over for the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. Daniel 7:23, Rev 13:7

Re apostasia; obviously your 'experts' are 'rapture' believers, there are plenty of other scholars who do not think it means 'gathering or removal'.
So to hold it up as a 'rapture' proof, is contentious to say the least.


Making assertions like this, makes you look very silly, as proof that it was God's doing is found in 1 Kings 12:24.

For starters, this is an unbecoming comment, made so as to ridicule another person. Quite inappropriate.
That the people who were conquered and taken to Babylon for 70 years, were the House of Judah, is indisputable. That there were a few from the other tribes and aliens, does not change the fact they were all Jews, by religion and assimilation. They were also Israelites, as a part of all Israel.

The Northern ten tribes did not and have not yet, rejoined with their kinsmen, Ezekiel 37 has not happened yet.

Yes they did. Either that or Ezra and Nehemiah were lying to us. Ezra called his group from Babylon Jews 9 times and Israel 40 times. Nehemiah called his group from Babylon Jews 11 times and Israel 22 times.

Anna was from Asher, a norther tribe in the book of Luke. 700 years after the Assyrian conquest. 500 years after the Babylonian exile. Living in the levant and serving in the temple. There was no dispute on what tribe she was from.

Paul didn't differentiate either. He called himself a Hebrew, a Jew, a Benjamite, and a Israelite. All from a guy that came from Cilicia (Turkey).

By the time of the Hasmoneans, Jew and Israelite had become interchangeable terms. So much so that tribal distinctions were beginning to dissolve.

I am pretty sure that Ezekiel 37 has happened, or at least in process. The prophecy of the 430 years of Ezekiel 4, in conjunction with Leviticus 26, and using the Hebrew lunar calendar year, May of 1948 was the time. I know I showed you the numbers before. If you wish, I will show you the math again. It is precision prophecy.

And dismissing established, recognized in the field, Greek scholars just because they may be pre-trib..... that is bias and myopia that is flagrant. The textual science is sound. And it might have been the motivation for these scholars to adopt the pre-trib.

 

[Enoch111]

Making assertions like this, makes you look very silly, as proof that it was God's doing is found in 1 Kings 12:24.

No. It was the evil deeds of evil men that split that kingdom.

SOLOMON
And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father... Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant... And Ahijah caught the new garment that was on him, and rent it in twelve pieces: And he said to Jeroboam, Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee:.. (1 Kings 11:6,11,30,31)

So I wonder who is looking silly now? God never planned to split up Israel, nor wanted human kings in Israel. BUT HE ALLOWED IT.

 

[Enoch111]

No, it was our Heavenly Father Himself that split old Israel. But yes He did it because of what Solomon had done in disobeying Him.

This is called speaking out of both sides of your mouth. See my post above and admit that you are totally mistaken.

 

[Copperhead]

I think Dave L lost the argument in this thread.

 

[Enoch111]

The thing with the belief of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church is; that with that idea in mind, verses can be found that seem to support it.

No one can fairly refute the Bible doctrines of the Rapture and of Heaven as the eternal home of the saints (the Church). John 14:1-3 should settle the matter, although there are many other passages to establish this truth.

 

[Copperhead]

No one can fairly refute the Bible doctrines of the Rapture and of Heaven as the eternal home of the saints (the Church). John 14:1-3 should settle the matter, although there are many other passages to establish this truth.

Especially in conjunction with Isaiah 26:19-21. Along with Psalms 27:5.

 

[Keraz]

So I wonder who is looking silly now? God never planned to split up Israel, nor wanted human kings in Israel. BUT HE ALLOWED IT.

Did you even bother to look at 1 Kings 12:24 God said this separation is My doing....
God did plan to have a people who would have the Torah, etc, but would fail to be the people He really wanted; the Jewish people as a visible entity and the House of Israel a people scattered among the nations, who would accept Jesus; who came to save them. Matthew 15:24
This Plan has worked very well; we Christians are the result and our exile for a decreed period, Ezekiel 4:4-5, is now nearly over.

His faithful people, those who trust in Him for their protection through all that must happen, 1 Peter 4:12, will go to live in all of the holy Land and Jews who were born into the Kingdom, will be thrown out into the dark..... Matthew 8:12

 

[Keraz]

Especially in conjunction with Isaiah 26:19-21. Along with Psalms 27:5.

What dreamers you 'rapturists' are!
Heaven, or anyone going to heaven, is never mentioned in any of the scriptures you love to think prove your theory. You just add it to suit what you want God to do for you. To your eternal discredit.

 

[Copperhead]

What dreamers you 'rapturists' are!
Heaven, or anyone going to heaven, is never mentioned in any of the scriptures you love to think prove your theory. You just add it to suit what you want God to do for you. To your eternal discredit.

I could say the same for you. The allegorical approach to scripture exegesis you ascribe to can really lead one on a Alice in Wonderland fantasy trail.

I digress... it saddens me that I lowered myself to your level. Please forgive me, Abba.

 

[Keraz]

I could say the same for you. The allegorical approach to scripture exegesis you ascribe to can really lead one on a Alice in Wonderland fantasy trail.

It shows how you simply don't understand the Prophetic Word, what God actually does want from His people and what He plans for their future.
The fantasy, is thinking we are done with this world, our tasks are completed and God will now take us to His place, on the yellow brick road to the Land of OZ; away from any trials or hardships. Never mind that the Bible doesn't say that at all.

 

[Copperhead]

It shows how you simply don't understand the Prophetic Word, what God actually does want from His people and what He plans for their future.
The fantasy, is thinking we are done with this world, our tasks are completed and God will now take us to His place, on the yellow brick road to the Land of OZ; away from any trials or hardships. Never mind that the Bible doesn't say that at all.

Well, it shows you have no understanding of the pre-trib position. And you do not understand the relationship of the 1st century Hebrew marriage that Yeshua refers to many times and how it aligns with that. Especially since the Hebrew marriage alignment started at the last supper and continues on thru to the Millennial kingdom.

But I do have one question.... are angels considered saints?

 

[Keraz]

But I do have one question.... are angels considered saints?

No.
Angels are God's messengers; Spirits. Saints are those people who have proved their faith in God: humans. Often unto death.

When Jesus Returns He will be accompanied by His angel army. Revelation 19:14, Matthew 16:27, Matthew 25:31
Every faithful Christian person alive at that time will be transported to where He is, initially in the clouds, then to Jerusalem. 1 Thess 4:17, only the martyrs of the GT will be brought back to life then, all the rest of the dead await the GWT; after the Millennium.

As for the pre-trib rapture position; there isn't one, only a pathetic wish to escape any kind of trials and testing.

 

[Copperhead]

No.
Angels are God's messengers; Spirits. Saints are those people who have proved their faith in God: humans. Often unto death.

When Jesus Returns He will be accompanied by His angel army. Revelation 19:14, Matthew 16:27, Matthew 25:31
Every faithful Christian person alive at that time will be transported to where He is, initially in the clouds, then to Jerusalem. 1 Thess 4:17, only the martyrs of the GT will be brought back to life then, all the rest of the dead await the GWT; after the Millennium.

Ok. Then how could Enoch say this.........

Jude 1:14 (NKJV) Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,

If the Lord is accompanied by some "angel army", they must be saints. OR.... they are the redeemed saints as Enoch said. So if they are coming with Him, they had to be gathered to Him prior to His coming.

If as you say, they are transported to where He is in the clouds, then He already was coming when they met up with Him. But that would mean Enoch was a liar and Jude as well for quoting him. Jude clearly says that the saints come with Him, not meet Him and do some yo-yo thing.

 

[Keraz]

Ok. Then how could Enoch say this.........

Jude 1:14 (NKJV) Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,

OK then, does the Bible contradict itself?
No; therefore the clear statement of Rev 19:14 and the 2 in Matthew, stand as factual truth.
The word translated in Jude 14, and in Zechariah 14:5b, is 'hagios', meaning holy ones. Can be either angels or human saints.
So Jesus Returns accompanied only with His angel army, NOT any humans, who never go to heaven to begin with.

 

[Copperhead]

OK then, does the Bible contradict itself?
No; therefore the clear statement of Rev 19:14 and the 2 in Matthew, stand as factual truth.
The word translated in Jude 14, and in Zechariah 14:5b, is 'hagios', meaning holy ones. Can be either angels or human saints.
So Jesus Returns accompanied only with His angel army, NOT any humans, who neve go to heaven to begin with.

Revelation 19:14, there is nothing there that refutes the idea that they are the saints. It just says armies. You are just applying your view of who you think it is.

And regarding hagios being holy ones, Yes, James Strong says that about the word. But not only that. He also says it means saints. And Zechariah 14 is in Hebrew not Greek, so you cannot legitimately make the case you are trying to make regarding the interpretation of a Greek word. But on that one, James Strong does the very same thing and says it can mean saints also. In neither case, is angels stated as being those armies.

 

[Keraz]

Revelation 19:14, there is nothing there that refutes the idea that they are the saints. It just says armies. You are just applying your view of who you think it is.

In your desperation, you are making assertions that are easily shown to be wrong. You simply have no support for your fairy tale of going to heaven and Returning with Jesus, riding white horses and waving light sabers.

Revelation 19:14 The armies of heaven followed Him...…. REBible
" " And the armies which were in heaven followed Him...… KJV
" " The armies of heaven, clothed in white followed Him …..CJB
" ' The armies of heaven were following Him.....NIV

You know what is better? To believe the truth of what the Prophetic Word does say about God's plans for our future.
When they are understood, then a peace of knowing how God will look after His people, as they go thru the end times and when Jesus does Return; to then be with Him forever.

 

[Copperhead]

In your desperation, you are making assertions that are easily shown to be wrong. You simply have no support for your fairy tale of going to heaven and Returning with Jesus, riding white horses and waving light sabers.

Revelation 19:14 The armies of heaven followed Him...…. REBible
" " And the armies which were in heaven followed Him...… KJV
" " The armies of heaven, clothed in white followed Him …..CJB
" ' The armies of heaven were following Him.....NIV

You know what is better? To believe the truth of what the Prophetic Word does say about God's plans for our future.
When they are understood, then a peace of knowing how God will look after His people, as they go thru the end times and when Jesus does Return; to then be with Him forever.

The fact that you use the terminology you use against my assertion just affirms my position. Me thinks ye doest protest too much.

Fairy tales? Light sabers? Man you really are immature and of the world. Hardly qualifying as scholarly.

 

[Keraz]

The fact that you use the terminology you use against my assertion just affirms my position. Me thinks ye doest protest too much.

Fairy tales? Light sabers? Man you really are immature and of the world. Hardly qualifying as scholarly.

I have proved you wrong. You are so locked into false theories that you can't admit your errors.

Isn't telling people that when they die, their souls will go directly to heaven, where they will meet Jesus and all their departed friends; a fairy tale?
An even more unbelievable and hopelessly unbiblical one, is that the Lord will suddenly make all Christians fly up thru the air and into heaven. Then He will smash all the ungodly into hell.
Makes Superman and Star Wars seem tame by comparison.

 

[Copperhead]

Nope. Did my research further on Revelation 5:9-10.

There are 24 main manuscripts that are used by translators today. In regards to "us" or "them" in Revelation 5:10, all of them but one have the Greek "ego" in there to denote 1st person possessive. Only the Codex Alexandrinus is it omitted.

Folks like the NASB and others use a textual criticism method that if something is not in the earliest documents, it is left out. They tried that with John 8, the story of the woman caught in adultery, but they left it in though they made sure and put a comment that it was not in the earliest documents. In their zeal to screw up, they overlooked that the story is supported as a OT prophecied event in Jeremiah 17:13-14.

In Revelation 5:9-10, they went with the Codex Alexandrinus on this one and used "them" for grammatical clarity, purposefully avoiding the majority of texts. And there is no sound reason to change it since support for it is in the majority of manuscripts. Many Greek scholars concur. Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost, Dr. Ed Hindsen, Dr. Andy Woods, etc.

So since the majority of texts agree that Revelation 5:9-10 this way.....

Revelation 5:9-10 (NKJV) And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

... the idea that the redeemed are indeed in heaven is supported in the overwhelming majority of manuscripts. And they are wearing crowns and white robes. There has to be bodies to put them on and not just some soul idea.

Pre-tribe. Game. Set. Match.

Even if it were "them" in the passage, there is precedent in scripture for the people who are the focus using third person wording and still mean themselves. John does it in his Gospel account frequently. The Hebrew people, when they were praising the Lord after the Red Sea crossing did it in Exodus 15:13&17. So the idea that these elders, in saying "them" could still be referring to themselves. That is two for two.