Reader Poll - Would you be a Christian if there was no afterlife?

[Aunty Jane]

Did they? I don't see "governing body " in my Bible, is it in the NWT?

Wonder of wonders!…you’ve never read Acts 15:1-33???

There is a governing body in Jerusalem to whom Paul and Barnabas took the hotly debated topic of circumcision for Gentiles to be resolved. After a decision was reached, a letter was sent to all the congregations with the intention of ending the divisions among the Jewish believers and their Gentiles brothers.

Having a central governing body is essential for unity, and oneness of belief and purpose. (1 Cor 1:10)
If it was good enough for the first Christians, it’s good enough for us.

You can do as you please…..it makes no difference to anyone, as no one has ever heard of your group.
People cannot hate you and persecute you if they have no idea that you exist…..(John 15:18-21)

 

[Berean]

Wonder of wonders!…you’ve never read Acts 15:1-33???

There is a governing body in Jerusalem to whom Paul and Barnabas took the hotly debated topic of circumcision for Gentiles to be resolved. After a decision was reached, a letter was sent to all the congregations with the intention of ending the divisions among the Jewish believers and their Gentiles brothers.

Having a central governing body is essential for unity, and oneness of belief and purpose. (1 Cor 1:10)
If it was good enough for the first Christians, it’s good enough for us.

You can do as you please…..it makes no difference to anyone, as no one has ever heard of your group.
People cannot hate you and persecute you if they have no idea that you exist…..(John 15:18-21)

Okay, let's take a look at some verses. Let's look at Acts 15:2

"after quite a bit of dissension and disputing by Paul and Barʹna·bas with them, it was arranged for Paul, Barʹna·bas, and some of the others to go up to the apostles and elders in Jerusalem regarding this issue." (NWT)​

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Instead of showing that there were just a few leaders called a governing body, Acts talks about a big meeting. This meeting included the apostles, older men known as elders, Paul and Barnabas who were traveling missionaries, and others. This big group came together to make a decision on an important issue that affected the local congregations.

The story of Apostle Paul also shows that there wasn't a central governing body leading the early Christians. After Paul changed his life, he didn't meet with a governing body or go to Jerusalem to get a job. Instead, he started his missionary work right away, guided by the Holy Spirit. Paul didn't go to Jerusalem for the first time until three years after he changed, and even then, he only met with Peter and James, not a group of leaders.

"nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before I was, but I went to Arabia, and then I returned to Damascus. Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to visit Ceʹphas, and I stayed with him for 15 days. But I did not see any of the other apostles, only James the brother of the Lord." (NWT)​

​

So, Paul didn't return to Jerusalem for another fourteen years (Galatians 2:1-3), probably for the event mentioned in Acts 15.

Schaff's History of the Christian Church indicates that once the circumcision issue was settled, "we have no trace of Councils before the middle of the second century."

What does the passage in chapter 15 really say? Does it mention the phrase "governing body"? Does it claim that only the apostles were part of this important decision about doctrine? Not even close.

"Then the apostles and the elders, together with the whole congregation, decided to send chosen men from among them to Antioch, along with Paul and Barʹna·bas; they sent Judas who was called Barʹsab·bas and Silas, who were leading men among the brothers. They wrote this and sent it through them:“The apostles and the elders, your brothers, to those brothers in Antioch, Syria, and Ci·liʹcia who are from the nations: Greetings!" - 15:22, 23 (NWT)​

Decision making wasn't just in the hands of a few leaders. Instead, everyone in the congregation, like the apostles, elders, Paul, and Barnabas, worked together to agree on the issue and write the letter to share their conclusions. A small group of leaders didn't have all the power over the early Christian congregations.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Okay, let's take a look at some verses. Let's look at Acts 15:2

"after quite a bit of dissension and disputing by Paul and Barʹna·bas with them, it was arranged for Paul, Barʹna·bas, and some of the others to go up to the apostles and elders in Jerusalem regarding this issue." (NWT)Instead of showing that there were just a few leaders called a governing body, Acts talks about a big meeting. This meeting included the apostles, older men known as elders, Paul and Barnabas who were traveling missionaries, and others. This big group came together to make a decision on an important issue that affected the local congregations.

The “big meeting“ involved the dissenters and those arguing for circumcision for their Gentile brothers.
“The apostles and elders” were “in Jerusalem“ and Paul and Barnabas were “sent” to them to clear up this divisive argument. After much prayer and debate, a decision was handed down by God’s spirit…..all complied with that. And the congregations were informed about it so that no lingering question about it remained.

The story of Apostle Paul also shows that there wasn't a central governing body leading the early Christians. After Paul changed his life, he didn't meet with a governing body or go to Jerusalem to get a job. Instead, he started his missionary work right away, guided by the Holy Spirit. Paul didn't go to Jerusalem for the first time until three years after he changed, and even then, he only met with Peter and James, not a group of leaders.

The apostles continued to be the ones directing worship as they appointed elders in the congregations to govern what was taught, and to deal with dissenters. (Hebrews 13:17) Any who wanted to practice sin, or who wanted to bring in their own ideas were shown the door. The elders had the authority to expel wrongdoers. (1 Cor 5:9-13; 2 John 9-11)
Without a central governing body (or call it whatever you like) unity is lost, and divisions are inevitable.

How do you think Christendom got to be such a mess?

 

[Berean]

The “big meeting“ involved the dissenters and those arguing for circumcision for their Gentile brothers.
“The apostles and elders” were “in Jerusalem“ and Paul and Barnabas were “sent” to them to clear up this divisive argument. After much prayer and debate, a decision was handed down by God’s spirit…..all complied with that. And the congregations were informed about it so that no lingering question about it remained.

The apostles continued to be the ones directing worship as they appointed elders in the congregations to govern what was taught, and to deal with dissenters. (Hebrews 13:17) Any who wanted to practice sin, or who wanted to bring in their own ideas were shown the door. The elders had the authority to expel wrongdoers. (1 Cor 5:9-13; 2 John 9-11)
Without a central governing body (or call it whatever you like) unity is lost, and divisions are inevitable.

If this is true, why aren't other councils of this "Governing Body" mentioned in the scriptures? You'd think there would be several occasions when the Apostles got together. Yet there is not one letter sent out to various congregations signed by a first-century "Governing Body" or Apostles.

How do you think Christendom got to be such a mess?

Probably the same way the Watchtower Society did ... "certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord [a]God and our Lord Jesus Christ." - Jude 4

 

[Aunty Jane]

If this is true, why aren't other councils of this "Governing Body" mentioned in the scriptures? You'd think there would be several occasions when the Apostles got together. Yet there is not one letter sent out to various congregations signed by a first-century "Governing Body" or Apostles.

Probably the same way the Watchtower Society did ... "certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord [a]God and our Lord Jesus Christ." - Jude 4

All of your posts to me are thinly veiled criticisms of Jehovah’s Witnesses…you have an agenda and we know how desperate some people can be in trying to push their own views, when they are not upheld by Scripture.

If you are the “Christians” that Jesus said would be “preaching the good news of the Kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations” until “the end” of this current world system (Matt 24:14)…..then surely people would be hearing from you in any way possible. How did the first Christians get their message out to the people?

Matt 10:11-14….Jesus sent his disciples out to the people…..he did not tell them to sit in a building, reading their Bibles, and waiting for the sheep to wander in.…it was virtually a search and rescue mission.
Jesus told them…
“Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. And when you go into a household, greet it. If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!” (NKJV)

Acts 20:19-21..…Paul’s words…
“serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears and trials which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews; how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.“ (NKJV)

Why was this necessary? Why did Jesus command that this be the way to get his message out to the people? Because their response to the message determined whether they were “worthy” or not. The peace that they wished the household, if their message was rejected, was to return to the messenger….who was to “shake the dust off their feet” because the customary foot washing as an act of hospitality, was denied and was counted as a rejection of the Christ, under whose authority they had come.

Any who think that this preaching work is unnecessary, are simply looking for excuses not to participate in it because it’s a difficult thing to approach strangers with the Christian message….but as Paul also said….
Rom 10:13-15….
“For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” [quoting Joel 2:32] How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,Who bring glad tidings of good things!” (NKJV)

Make all the excuses you like…but Jesus said he would be “with” his disciples in this work to the very end.….

”Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (Matt 28:19-20 NKJV)

 

[Berean]

All of your posts to me are thinly veiled criticisms of Jehovah’s Witnesses…you have an agenda and we know how desperate some people can be in trying to push their own views, when they are not upheld by Scripture.

I'm sorry Jane, I just can't anymore, you say I have an agenda and it seems YOUR agenda is to never answer my questions. It seems it doesn't matter what the subject is, we could be talking about belly buttons, and somehow it always comes back to "we're the only ones fulfilling the great commission Jesus gave us, blah blah blah." Great way to avoid answering me.

Take care!

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'm sorry Jane, I just can't anymore, you say I have an agenda and it seems YOUR agenda is to never answer my questions. It seems it doesn't matter what the subject is, we could be talking about belly buttons, and somehow it always comes back to "we're the only ones fulfilling the great commission Jesus gave us, blah blah blah." Great way to avoid answering me.

Take care!

No mate…it just shows you the smoke screening you use to justify not carrying out “the great commission”….(Matt 28:19-20; Matt 24:14)
You guys couldn't do it sustainably if you tried….neither can anyone else. You need a global brotherhood who are all on the same page, and who all teach and believe the same truth. (1 Cor 1:10) You will see them as a visible presence in most cities and even in remote places.

I had a local clergyman call at the home I was working at some years ago, and he said he was doing a Bible education work in the area. When I told him I was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses has face dropped, and after a moment he said….”can I ask you a question?” He said he knew this work is what Jesus commanded his disciples to do, and yet he said “you people are the only ones I see doing it, and have been as long as I can remember”.….he said “How do you encourage your people to go out preaching”…..“do you get paid? I have tried to get my parishioners out in the work but they never stay at it.“

He was all alone and so disappointed that he had somehow failed his congregation….but I said to him, if you have the truth in your heart, it’s like fire in your bones that cannot be contained….as Paul said…

“For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel! For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship. “ (1 Cor 9:16-17 NKJV)

There is a reward for our obedience, but we cannot do it solely for the reward.
Even if we go out in the work unwillingly because of feelings of inadequacy, or shyness, Jesus said he would be “with” us in the work….we overcome those feelings and we have a solid Bible education backing us up. It is a “stewardship”.…a personal responsibility. The more we do it, the better we feel about it, because to us it is a search and rescue mission. When we help people see that the future is not so bleak, it encourages them, and also encourages us to keep going.

And because this is God’s work…he provides the motivation to keep preaching until Jesus says the work is finished. Only he knows when the last sheep is in the pen.

This is what Jesus foretold for our time….deny it if you like, but nothing you bring up is more important than what Jesus said would identify the main focus of his disciples in this “time of the end”.

Its not my fault that you can’t justify your own position. You don’t have to answer to me.

 

[shepherdsword]

Having a central governing body is essential for unity, and oneness of belief and purpose. (1 Cor 1:10)
If it was good enough for the first Christians, it’s good enough for us.

But which governing Body? The Vatican? New Apostolic Reformation? The LDS' 15 "apostles"? The Watchtower society?

 

[Aunty Jane]

But which governing Body? The Vatican? New Apostolic Reformation? The LDS' 15 "apostles"? The Watchtower society?

For most mainstream religious institutions there is a central Governing Body…..that determines doctrine and practices for its members. Is that some sort of a surprise?
For JW’s it is our Governing Body who determines beliefs and practices….they are the ones who take the lead in our worship as the Scriptures outline they should. (Heb 13:17) we are told to obey them…..and this is for us and no one else.

If a person decides to become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, they will study the Bible for a good all round understanding of what it means to be a Christian, and will undergo Christian baptism where they pledge to obey the teachings of Jesus Christ from that day forward. You cannot “join” Jehovah’s Witnesses…you have to choose to become one. You are not free to introduce your own ideas because that is what destroys unity.

People are free to choose whomever they see as the right religious “body” for themselves, if they accept their beliefs and agree that they teach the truth from God’s word.….but in the understanding that the fractured nature of Christendom means that there is no Governing Body for the claimed “body of Christ”….the “born again” Christians who really can’t explain what that means, and why their experiences are all so different.

It is denominations within Christendom who have those governing bodies….how many “bodies” does Christ have? How many truths are there?

 

[David Lamb]

It is denominations within Christendom who have those governing bodies….how many “bodies” does Christ have? How many truths are there?

Some denominations do, but by no means all. I am a Baptist, and there is no such thing as a Baptist central governing body, no equivalent to the Roman Catholic Vatican, or the Anglican synod. Each local Baptist church is autonomous under Christ. Some local Baptist churches may voluntarily join a grouping of Baptist churches, but the grouping has no authority over the local church.

 

[Berean]

But which governing Body? The Vatican? New Apostolic Reformation? The LDS' 15 "apostles"? The Watchtower society?

Shepherd, let me ask, how many of those "governing body's" you just mentioned change doctrines and practices as much as a baby's diaper and claim "this is what the Lord God revealed to us today ..." only to change it tomorrow and claim "this is what the Lord God revealed to us today ..."

How can you bring people into a church, claiming "this is the Truth that leads to eternal life" only to change those so-called truths later. Apparently what was taught previously was neither "everlasting" or "Truth."

 

[MatthewG]

I don't think I would exist already.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Shepherd, let me ask, how many of those "governing body's" you just mentioned change doctrines and practices as much as a baby's diaper and claim "this is what the Lord God revealed to us today ..." only to change it tomorrow and claim "this is what the Lord God revealed to us today ..."

How can you bring people into a church, claiming "this is the Truth that leads to eternal life" only to change those so-called truths later. Apparently what was taught previously was neither "everlasting" or "Truth."

More cheap shots…. seriously?…..perhaps you need to ask why you are not out in the work that Jesus assigned to all of his disciples, instead of wasting your time telling us what we ought to be doing….

Have we had clarifications about things over time? Yes, because things are always revealed incrementally in God’s word. Did Jesus’ apostles know that they were going to heaven when Jesus left to return to his Father? That was not revealed until Pentecost.

Were the Jews aware that the Kingdom was going to rule from heaven, or did they think it was an entirely earthly arrangement?
Did Jesus disciples know what it meant to be “born again”….no! Not until they received the holy spirit.

“The faithful and wise slave” was to feed his fellow slaves their “food at the proper time”, (Matt 24:45) which means that they were told what they needed to know, when they needed to know it. I think your food is rather stale by now.

“The light on the path gets brighter as the day dawns”…..or it should if you are not left behind in the dark….

 

[Aunty Jane]

Some denominations do, but by no means all. I am a Baptist, and there is no such thing as a Baptist central governing body, no equivalent to the Roman Catholic Vatican, or the Anglican synod. Each local Baptist church is autonomous under Christ. Some local Baptist churches may voluntarily join a grouping of Baptist churches, but the grouping has no authority over the local church.

I guess this is why there are some Baptist churches that have differences with others of the same denomination…
True Christianity has to fit what Paul said…..
1 Cor 1:10 NKJV…
”Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.“g

Does this in any way describe Christendom?

 

[shepherdsword]

Shepherd, let me ask, how many of those "governing body's" you just mentioned change doctrines and practices as much as a baby's diaper and claim "this is what the Lord God revealed to us today ..." only to change it tomorrow and claim "this is what the Lord God revealed to us today ..."

How can you bring people into a church, claiming "this is the Truth that leads to eternal life" only to change those so-called truths later. Apparently what was taught previously was neither "everlasting" or "Truth."

and claiming that anyone of them promotes "unity" is just as outrageous

 

[shepherdsword]

More cheap shots…. seriously?…..perhaps you need to ask why you are not out in the work that Jesus assigned to all of his disciples, instead of wasting your time telling us what we ought to be doing….

How is pointing out error a "cheap shot"?

Have we had clarifications about things over time? Yes, because things are always revealed incrementally in God’s word. Did Jesus’ apostles know that they were going to heaven when Jesus left to return to his Father? That was not revealed until Pentecost.

Any false prophet can use this same reasoning to justify their error.

Were the Jews aware that the Kingdom was going to rule from heaven, or did they think it was an entirely earthly arrangement?
Did Jesus disciples know what it meant to be “born again”….no! Not until they received the holy spirit.

True...but they didn't claim an authorotative revelation from God about it before it was revealed. Big difference.

“The faithful and wise slave” was to feed his fellow slaves their “food at the proper time”, (Matt 24:45) which means that they were told what they needed to know, when they needed to know it. I think your food is rather stale by now.

This isn't a justification for claiming a divine revelation and then changing it whenever the whim suits you. Look, I am not trying to insult you. You are obviously a sincere and studied person. There are many highly intelligent people trapped in cults. However, I would check my own plate if I were you. It's full of lying defecation from a false organization,

“The light on the path gets brighter as the day dawns”…..or it should if you are not left behind in the dark….

2 Co 11:13-14 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Lk 11:35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.

I would leave the Jehovah Witnesses if I were you