Reason for The Crusades explained

[Matthias]

Did they have legal protections or protection from invading armies?

Yes, but the argument is ”You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.”

The apostles weren’t “armed, ready to kill” and neither were the earliest Christians - which makes them, by Wrangler’s requirement for being a follower of Jesus - not followers of Jesus.

 

[Matthias]

If it eases your conscience any @Lambano, the government officials who demanded it were all Christians.

They were evil @Lambano. They were going to enrich themselves and their friends, then point the finger at me when the sickness and deaths began to surface a few years later.

My supervisor’s, supervisor’s, supervisor asked me how many years it would take for that to happen. When I told him, he was pleased. His response was that he would be “retired by then!” When I asked him, “What about me? I won’t be retired. What will happen to me?” He replied, “You’re cannon fodder.”

He did me great harm when I refused and, when he retired a few years later, he was killed in a painting accident at his church.

 

[Lambano]

Yes, but the argument is ”You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.”

The apostles weren’t “armed, ready to kill” and neither were the earliest Christians - which makes them, by Wrangler’s requirement for being a follower of Jesus - not followers of Jesus.

That's your argument with Wrangler, and I'm staying the hell out of it (among other reasons, because his position is totally indefensible.) My argument is against those who would say that those like my cop acquaintance or those like my son who took the sword to defend "innocent" life cannot be a follower of Jesus.

 

[Lambano]

They were evil @Lambano. They were going to enrich themselves and their friends, then point the finger at me when the sickness and deaths began to surface.

Then you did the right thing.

 

[Matthias]

Then you did well to "obey God rather than Men".

I would have killed Christians and non-Christians if I had obeyed the order.

Followers of Jesus ordered to kill followers of Jesus by the government should “obey God rather than men.”

 

[Lambano]

They were evil @Lambano. They were going to enrich themselves and their friends, then point the finger at me when the sickness and deaths began to surface a few years later.

My supervisor’s, supervisor’s, supervisor asked me how many years it would take for that to happen. When I told him, he was pleased. His response was that he would be “retired by then!” When I asked him, “What about me? I won’t be retired. What will happen to me?” He replied, “You’re cannon fodder.”

He did me great harm when I refused and, when he retired a few years later, he was killed in a painting accident at his church.

I must confess that I'm sorry he wasn't struck by lightning.

 

[Matthias]

That's your argument with Wrangler and I'm staying the hell out of it (among other reasons, because his position is totally indefensible.)

But the Crusades! Why aren’t you persuaded by the crusaders?

My argument is against those who would say that those like my cop acquaintance or those like my son who took the sword to defend "innocent" life cannot be a follower of Jesus.

Did they love their enemies?

 

[Matthias]

I must confess that I'm sorry he wasn't struck by lightning.

He fell off a ladder while painting the church steeple at the Baptist Church* he attended. (I could try to look for his obituary if it matters.)

* I located his obituary. I was mistaken about his denomination affiliation. He might have been painting at a Baptist Church but he was a Lutheran.

 

[Lambano]

Did they love their enemies?

Sometimes circumstances force you to choose who gets killed. "So it goes." (Vonnegut).

 

[Matthias]

Sometimes circumstances force you to choose who gets killed. "So it goes." (Vonnegut).

So the answer, apparently, is no.

My advice to followers of Jesus who sought my advice was that they should not put themselves in that circumstance. The early church taught that followers of Jesus were not to take up arms against their enemies. Wrangler attempts to get around that by saying that they weren’t living in Christian nations when they taught that - but he also argues that every disciple at the time of Jesus, and on down to the present day, obey Jesus (i.e. they were armed, ready to kill). That’s nonsense.

In a war between nations of the world, soldiers (followers of Jesus or not) aren’t there to love their enemies.

This begs the question, is the teaching of Jesus and the apostles impractical?

 

[Matthias]

"So it goes." (Vonnegut).

Dresden. Vonnegut was there. At least 25,000 civilians killed - how many of them were followers of Jesus? All? None? How about if there was only one?

“Because you did it to one of the least of these my brothers …” Jesus was flying the planes and was killed when the bombs he dropped exploded on him in the city below. That’s madness.

And with Vonnegut we may say, “So it goes.”

Followers of Jesus killing followers of Jesus in war - let’s start there but not end there.

***

“Go and make disciples” -> no disciples were made in Dresden that day. That’s not why the planes were there.

 

[Matthias]

“You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill” is not the biblical model for making disciples.

 

[Matthias]

Even my arch-nemesis from the 4th century, Athanasius, wrote against the “You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill” teaching of Wrangler -

“Christians, instead of arming themselves with swords, extend their hands in prayer.”

40 Quotes from the Early Church on Violence and Enemy Love - Jason Porterfield

For 1700 years, the early church’s clear teaching on violence, kingdom allegiance, and enemy love has largely been ignored.

jasonporterfield.com

As can be seen in this collection of quotes, the early Church obviously wouldn’t go for it and the crusaders, in a case of poetic justice, would have killed Wrangler (and he them) had they crossed paths back in the day.

 

[Matthias]

Jesus on War | Online Library of Liberty

Related Links in the GSR: Jesus Christ Related Links: New Testament Subject Area: Religion Subject Area: War & Peace Source: Chapter in Cadoux's The Early Christian Attitude to War: A Contribution to the History of Christian Ethics, with a Foreword by the Rev. W.E. Orchard, D.D. (London: Headly...

oll.libertyfund.org

One of the best resources on the historical changing Christian attitude on war. This is just an excerpt. I highly recommend the book to my readers.



It’s available to read online at no cost.

The Early Christian Attitude to War | Online Library of Liberty

Published shortly after the First World War, this book is an examination of Christian ethics regarding war and peace which begins with the teachings of Jesus and continues through the first 2 centuries of the Christian era.

oll.libertyfund.org

 

[Matthias]

The Nicene Christians (like the primitive Christians and AnteNicene Christians before them) were initially opposed to Christian participation in war. This was a serious problem for the Church in the 4th century. AI overview -

“In the 4th century, Christians serving in the military, especially those involved in killing, faced severe public penance, often exclusion from Communion for years, requiring deep repentance through prayer, fasting, and sometimes wearing penitential garb, as seen in practices guided by figures like St. Basil, though the strictness varied, with the Church grappling with the ethics of Christian participation in war after Constantine’s embrace of Christianity.”

This wasn’t ”You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.“This was You are not a follower of Jesus if you are armed, ready to kill - and to be received back into the church wasn’t a quick and easy process for those who had.*

* But even back then it could be done @Lambano.

 

[Matthias]

Constantine. Man o man, did he ever introduce a pivot point in Christian history. (Christians should have walked away from it.)

 

[Matthias]

“Change not your faith in changing times.” - C.H. Spurgeon

But they changed their faith (and practice) in changing times.

 

[Wrangler]

those like my cop acquaintance or those like my son who took the sword to defend "innocent" life cannot be a follower of Jesus.

You say this theoretical can't in the face of the fact that followers of Jesus do and have taken to the sword by the millions for centuries. Such denial of reality is a sign of over-spiritualization.

 

[Wrangler]

How is failing to protect innocent life any different than taking it?

This is the type of practical question of justice that the over-spiritualized pacifists avoid. Sure, they may reply but it is a non-responsive reply, a change in subject, deflection, a repeat of over-spiritualized mantra, a total abdication of responsibility to do justice. <sigh>

 

[Matthias]

This is the type of practical question of justice that the over-spiritualized pacifists avoid. Sure, they may reply but it is a non-responsive reply, a change in subject, deflection, a repeat of over-spiritualized mantra, a total abdication of responsibility to do justice. <sigh>

All followers of Jesus have a responsibility to do justice, readers.

”You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill” is his idea of doing justice. As has been shown using historical records, that was not the idea the apostles and the followers of Jesus for the first three hundred years of Church history had of doing justice.