HeRoseFromTheDead
Not So Advanced Member
- Jan 6, 2012
- 1,727
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If you want to argue with scripture go right ahead, I'm done.
What an embarrassment so many Christians are to the name of Christ.
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If you want to argue with scripture go right ahead, I'm done.
My authority is based in indisputable fact; truth is its own authority. If it's not the truth, dispute the facts. If you can't dispute the facts, why don't you believe the truth?
By what authority do you decide that one part of verse 5 cannot be separated from the other part? The original writings were written without verse, paragraph, or chapter designations. Who are you to say what Zechariah intended? When the evidence clearly shows that one version of scripture is true and another false, it behooves us to follow what is true. Clinging to man's tradition in fear and a closed mind (as you are doing) will be to your detriment.
Typically, people who make statements like this are too afraid to directly address the facts themselves. Blanket characterizations are so much easier for cowards.
I realize that facts don't mean anything to a closed mind.
Hmmm.... "Cowards?" "Closed mind?" And, people who attack the person instead of the argument are out of steam in a debate! (Ad hominem arguments do not become you.)
I've addressed the facts. I've no doubt that they have found what they wanted to find to throw allegory-minded Christians off track and deny the possibility that Zechariah 14:1-10 could be and will be literally fulfilled when Yeshua` returns as promised. They will do whatever they can to balk and thwart the arguments of believers and "missionaries" to re-interpret the prophecy of Z'kharyahu to their own agenda. They would choose not to be honest in their "research" over allowing the "missionaries" to have a leg to stand on in a correct understanding of Scripture!
Take research with a grain of salt. All the human research and findings in the world do not add up to a hill of beans when they contradict the Word. Furthermore, the Hebrew of that passage is quite clear! It should NOT be abused by those who would re-write it to fit their agenda, like our politically-correct thinkers are attempting to do with our history books! Such hypercriticism is detrimental to the understanding of Scriptures. Not only should one NOT re-write the Scriptures to ... say ... suggest that Jonah could not have been swallowed by a whale, nor should they re-write the Scriptures to suggest that Yeshua` will not cleave the mountain to form a valley!
Hey veteran do you understand the reaping ? after the reaping in Chapter 15 there is no flesh ...you are just making up things to make your wrong point. You are intentionally saying what isnt said to confuse those not studied enough to reconize what you are doing. Your ego is beyond measure.
Christ returns at 7th trump first thing he does is send out his angels to gather the Elect ..his feet touch down on the Mt of Olives it splits into ...
There is nothing new under the sun ,,
the fact there has been a quake there before on the Mt ...does not fulfill Zec.14 that just ignorace.
The next time we see Christ is Mt Zion Reaping the Multitude.
Some he reaps some an angel reaps into wrath ...WHICH HASNT OCCURED YET.
Where does God say he pours all 6 vials out at once ? Why did he bother to number them ... he could have just written it as chapter ... You add to the word ..you use a verse out of context to mislead its parenthetical in nature.
You're assigning a meaning to the mystery of God which is not stated and is refuted by other Scripture.
The Day of the Lord with its attendant rescue of the few remaining Elect who are still alive hasn't come yet either, and the Day of the Lord comes before ANY of the seven Trumpets of God's desolations are sounded by the seven Angels.
God sounds the Last Trumpet; specifically, Jesus.
How does one get into thrown Gods Wrath ?
[sup]17 [/sup]Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
[sup]18 [/sup]And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.”[sup]19 [/sup]So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
They thrown into it by an angel, they do not walk into it. you are NOT even appointed to it ...
1Th 5:9 You are sent there for your choice to take the Mark of the beast.
Now if we read the previous verses of chapter 14 you find Christ has reaped his own ...
There can be no wrath poured out until after Christ and his angels return for the reaping, gathering, harvest of the earth .. And if anyone says differnt they can not read ....Only after the reaping are the 7 SEVEN vials of GODS WRATH prepared to be poured out
Rev15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.
Now anyone saying that Christ is not here before his 7 vials of wrath are poured out needs to explain how his wrath can be poured out before the angel cast them into it.
Remember chapters were added by men the manuscripts do seprate chapters this one continus read.
Now if one wants to claim its not the Lords day or Day of the Lord when he gathers his church ...reaps them Harvests the earth ...so be it but they are making a distiction not written.
Yes Vetran I have read how Arnold murray teachs it and has for many years this isnt your doctrine its his....
I dont agree. A neither does scripture.
You are creating a contradiction that does not exist ...and then attempting to explain the contradiction you created.
All because you refuse to accept what is said.
So dont tell me Im following men you are following a mans teaching.
You deny the word to make a S.Chapel doctrine work for you.
No one of flesh and blood enters Gods wrath until cast into by the angel. Deny it all you want scripture proves you wrong.
[sup]19 [/sup]So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Gods wrath starts with the 1st vial and you are adding to the word to say differnt ...The problem is not the scriptures its you trying to solve your own created contradiction. And insulting all who wont buy into your doctrine.That you received from a man.
That's not how the flow of the Revelation Scripture reads, but that is how men's doctrines teach it.
The battle of Armageddon occurs on the last 7th Vial, and it is the day of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him. That's the same battle Ezekiel was given to describe about the armies coming out of the northern quarters upon the mountains of Israel. That is the day of God's vengeance and "day of the Lord". It is the day our Lord Jesus described in Luke 21 about the armies surrounding Jerusalem.
The 6th Vial is when the false messiah is active, along with the false prophet, in order to prepare... that great northern army to come up against Jerusalem on the last day of this world.
Rev 16:12-17
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Notice on that 6th Vial the waters of the Euphrates is dried up. What's that about? Per God's promise of the land to Israel, the Euphrates river was to be Israel's northern border. The idea of it being dried up is about those kings of the east crossing it, i.e., crossing Israel's symbolic northern border. It is a metaphor for the coming of Satan and his hosts, and is linked with the events of the 6th Trumpet.
Rev 9:13-19
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, "Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates."
That's the loosing of the locust army of Joel upon God's peoples, and to draw the kings in prep for the battle of Armageddon. It is the loosing of Satan and his host upon this earth for the tribulation timing per Rev.12:7-17.
Rev.9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
These are prepared to slay a third of men by a specific method described further below. And they are prepared to do that at time specifically set, at a certain hour, day, month, and year.
Rev.9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Oh, man... what a terrible sight that will be! No, not really, which the next verses will reveal why. It's because they destroy by what comes out of their... mouths. What comes out of one's mouth???
Rev.9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
(KJV)
What KIND of death happens by what comes out one's MOUTH? A death by bombs and bullets? No. A SPIRITUAL DEATH from DECEPTION. That's where their power to destroy is, with what comes out of their mouths, i.e., using words!
That's what that locust army loosed on the 6th Trumpet is to do, with the drying up of the river Euphrates, the symbolic border between God's people and Satan's host. Now let's see if the 6th Vial events follows that 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe Message...
Rev.16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
The locust army of Rev.9 has fire and brimstone coming out of their MOUTHS to destroy, and their power is in their MOUTHS. Does that 6th Vial event match that working? Yes, even with the working of miracles by those unclean spirits and devils! And their main purpose???
To go forth unto the kings of the earth, AND the WHOLE WORLD, to gather them for the last battle of this world, Armageddon. That's is STILL "great tribulation" timing there. Christ has not come yet at that point in time, which is why He then says this...
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."
(KJV)
Then boom, the 7th Vial occurs with the battle of Armageddon, the time of Christ's coming to defeat that Wicked one with the brightness of His coming (2 Thess.2). That's when we are gathered to Christ Jesus. That's when the "day of the Lord" is. That's when God's cup of wrath is poured out upon the wicked. That is the last day of this present world.
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And, if you follow the course of events in Zechariah, you will find that He is already taking vengeance when He comes to the towns of Y'hudah (Judah; Judaea). Then, He will route the enemies out of the towns of Y'hudah BEFORE He even comes to Yerushalayim (Jerusalem)! So, those who say that "He descends to the mount of Olives and splits it" are also wrong in that assumption. He has already descended before He ever comes to Har haZeitiym; however, He does set foot on the mount.
Shabbat shalom, veteran.
Of course not. However, you STILL have the fact that the MESSIAH HIMSELF in vengeance is said to come from Botsrah (Bozrah) spattered in blood! Isaiah 63:1-6ff has not happened, yet! How in the world could that be "figurative and literal as to the Edomite PEOPLES?" It's just literal.
I have never claimed that anyone should "flee to Bozrah," although I know that's how the writers of the Left Behind series interpreted it, when they suggested that believers would take refuge in Petra. Quite to the contrary, Yeshua` will take on that mission ALONE! It even angers Him that He IS fighting it alone, and His fury fuels His vengeance!
Sure the Edomites (or Idumeans) have "disappeared as a nation," but don't think for a moment that their descendants are extinct! And, who knows how they might figure in during this final campaign against Isra'el? Just as the descendants of the P'lishtiym (the Philistines) are among those who call themselves "Palestinians" today and are once again back in their land (the Gaza Strip), so likewise the descendants of Edowm are also among the "Palestinians" south of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), near if not in their ancestral lands. No, the course of events still flows from south to north.