Hang on there, Alan. You indeed are posting scriptures but twisting God's words just like it is evident to all that you are twisting their statements to you. Now, if you are just patient, I will go over those scriptures which you are interpreting (wrongly) according to the JDS (Jesus Died Spiritually) doctrine.
Redemptive Suffering / Did Christ Die Spiritually?
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Hang on there, Alan. You indeed are posting scriptures but twisting God's words just like it is evident to all that you are twisting their statements to you. Now, if you are just patient, I will go over those scriptures which you are interpreting (wrongly) according to the JDS (Jesus Died Spiritually) doctrine.
If you read my post, You'll see that I have given the Scriptures, Hebrew and Greek proof,
And I'm not twisting them
Just because you don't believe the Bible, It doesn't mean that I twist the scriptures, YOU NEED TO GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT.
I can only show you the truth, I can't make you believe it.
It's going to be very interesting to see how you are going to twist the truth.
Hi Alanforchrist,
Why all the accusations?
Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Couldn't we just look at more of what scripture says, together, and, try to build one another up in the knowledge of God?
Why all the accusations?
Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Couldn't we just look at more of what scripture says, together, and, try to build one another up in the knowledge of God?
IMO where were going to find the answer is in personal definition of terms and words.
The word became flesh and dwelt among us.
That Christ was not simply a man whom found favor in the eyes of God.
Hebrews 2:16-18
To be more precise the very nature of Christ.
Jesus soul was divine, having no earthly father, but rather the Father; begot and the Spirit conceived in Mary.
This goes back to the beginning,
[sup]12 [/sup]Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”
[sup]13 [/sup]And the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
[sup]14 [/sup]So the Lord God said to the serpent:
“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
[sup]15 [/sup]And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”
Notice that Adam is not included in the Lord proclamation. It's all about the serpent and Eve.
I Shall put enmity,Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed; God and a decedent of Eve "Mary".
Thats enough for us to consider for now. And don't make me have to mention Gabriel.
This part of the story is all about the redemption of woman Eve and her decedents. For what the serpent did to her.
The word became flesh and dwelt among us.
That Christ was not simply a man whom found favor in the eyes of God.
Hebrews 2:16-18
To be more precise the very nature of Christ.
I beg to differ with the bold statement above.
Jesus soul was divine, having no earthly father, but rather the Father; begot and the Spirit conceived in Mary.
This goes back to the beginning,
[sup]12 [/sup]Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”
[sup]13 [/sup]And the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
[sup]14 [/sup]So the Lord God said to the serpent:
“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
[sup]15 [/sup]And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”
Notice that Adam is not included in the Lord proclamation. It's all about the serpent and Eve.
I Shall put enmity,Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed; God and a decedent of Eve "Mary".
Thats enough for us to consider for now. And don't make me have to mention Gabriel.
This part of the story is all about the redemption of woman Eve and her decedents. For what the serpent did to her.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
No one ever goes to heaven...
Joh 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.
Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
And to His very own, the twelve, James, Peter, John and the rest...
Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
We don't go there, He comes back here...
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
And where does He come to?
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
No, he went to the grave and was dead for three days and three nights, just as He said...
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
The only sign He ever gave that He was who He said He was.
We are born at the resurrection.
Biblical truth is that we never go to heaven, there is no everburning hell and the wages of sin is not eternity in hell, it is death for ever...
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Hi Rex and Alanforchrist,
Both of you are bringing valid thoughts to the discussion. It's not about being right or wrong, when scripture points to both conclusions.
Rex, Alan is on to something here
which Luke writes about in
Acts 13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same to us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again;
as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
In the first, Paul is preaching; in the second, Paul is writing. The connection between holiness and resurrection should not be missed. This will be important when we come to consider in more detail, whether Jesus could have been polluted by the sin which was laid on Him.
It does not prove that He died spiritually. It proves that His human spirit went back to God, Mark 15:37
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.
and when God the Father raised Him from the dead, He gave Him His glorified body, in the same way as we will receive when we are resurrected from the dead.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation.
There are several places in the NT where the local people who knew Jesus as Joseph and Mary's son found it hard to believe He was 'that Prophet', and this is one reason, I think, that the establishment that His Father really is in heaven - through the words which He spoke while Jesus was on earth (at His baptism, on the Mount of Transfiguration) and then by raising Him from the dead - is valid and vital. Both aspects are part of the gospel.
Rex, I'm very interested in what more you want to share about the redemption of woman. Brother, say on....
Hi John_8:32,
I enjoyed your post.
Both of you are bringing valid thoughts to the discussion. It's not about being right or wrong, when scripture points to both conclusions.
Rex, Alan is on to something here
which Luke writes about in
Acts 13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same to us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again;
as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
In the first, Paul is preaching; in the second, Paul is writing. The connection between holiness and resurrection should not be missed. This will be important when we come to consider in more detail, whether Jesus could have been polluted by the sin which was laid on Him.
It does not prove that He died spiritually. It proves that His human spirit went back to God, Mark 15:37
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.
and when God the Father raised Him from the dead, He gave Him His glorified body, in the same way as we will receive when we are resurrected from the dead.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation.
There are several places in the NT where the local people who knew Jesus as Joseph and Mary's son found it hard to believe He was 'that Prophet', and this is one reason, I think, that the establishment that His Father really is in heaven - through the words which He spoke while Jesus was on earth (at His baptism, on the Mount of Transfiguration) and then by raising Him from the dead - is valid and vital. Both aspects are part of the gospel.
Rex, I'm very interested in what more you want to share about the redemption of woman. Brother, say on....
Hi John_8:32,
I enjoyed your post.
Your all getting ahead of me but your both right.
Dragon fly.
The redemptive message that is always focused on.
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.
The completed work of Christ.
I wanted to make clear that this about women as well. Women are not second class We should take the Lords example
That God did not require of her, but by grace alone brought salvation threw the vessel that the serpent deceived, Now remember the tree of knowledge of "GOOD AND EVIL" Eve was deceived. “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
The Lord simply said I'll take care of it Right Now! paraphrased of course.
We should also take that roll, that we are charged to elevate to lift her before us. Men are fixers and it would seem God is as well. Servitude is the message. Just as God served Eve, the greatest promise of the ages to all mankind.
We pass over this important point and I want all men to hear it. Were men we want to get to the head crushing part LOL
John I see we agree again, nice post.
God said in that day you eat, you will surly die. But I don't want this to go down a rabbit hole just glad to have you with us.
Dragon fly.
The redemptive message that is always focused on.
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.
The completed work of Christ.
I wanted to make clear that this about women as well. Women are not second class We should take the Lords example
That God did not require of her, but by grace alone brought salvation threw the vessel that the serpent deceived, Now remember the tree of knowledge of "GOOD AND EVIL" Eve was deceived. “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
The Lord simply said I'll take care of it Right Now! paraphrased of course.
We should also take that roll, that we are charged to elevate to lift her before us. Men are fixers and it would seem God is as well. Servitude is the message. Just as God served Eve, the greatest promise of the ages to all mankind.
We pass over this important point and I want all men to hear it. Were men we want to get to the head crushing part LOL
Rex, I'm very interested in what more you want to share about the redemption of woman. Brother, say on....
John I see we agree again, nice post.
God said in that day you eat, you will surly die. But I don't want this to go down a rabbit hole just glad to have you with us.
You said,
"Couldn't we just look at more of what scripture says".
You should be telling that to Axehead.
What in the world has that got to do with Jesus dying Spiritually, And being made alive again Spiritually??.
[1]Jesus was talking to the Pharisees in Jn 7: 34 & Jn 8: 21.
And in Jn 13: 33, Jesus never said His disciples wouldn't go to heaven, He said he told the Pharisees that they wouldn't go.
Then He said to His disciples, "Now I say say to YOU, A new commandment I give unto you".
What Jesus said was, You will seek Me but not find Me because I'm going to heaven, And I told the pharisees that they can't come.
The Bible proves that Christians will go to heaven.
You quoted one scripture yourself, Or I should say, "YOU MISQUOTED SCRIPTURE"".
In Jn 14, Jesus tells us He is going to heaven to prepare a place for us, And He will come back again to take us to the place He has prepared for us, Wher did Jesus go?? TO HEAVEN, Where is the place that He prepared for us??. HEAVEN.
Where is He going to take us to??. HEAVEN.
This is talking about the pre-tribulation rapture.
Paul, [Who got the revelation from Jesus] Said we will go to heaven, 2 Cor 5: 1--8. Phil 1: 23.
Also see Rev 6: 9-10. Rev 7: 1-17. Rev 14: 2-5. all these say people go to heaven when they die.
[2]We [Christians] are born again,NOW. Jn 1: 12--13. Jn 3: 3--8. James 1: 18. 1 Pet 1: 22--23. 1 Jn 5: 1--4.
Hi Rex and Alanforchrist,
Both of you are bringing valid thoughts to the discussion. It's not about being right or wrong, when scripture points to both conclusions.
Rex, Alan is on to something here
which Luke writes about in
Acts 13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same to us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again;
as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
In the first, Paul is preaching; in the second, Paul is writing. The connection between holiness and resurrection should not be missed. This will be important when we come to consider in more detail, whether Jesus could have been polluted by the sin which was laid on Him.
It does not prove that He died spiritually. It proves that His human spirit went back to God, Mark 15:37
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.
and when God the Father raised Him from the dead, He gave Him His glorified body, in the same way as we will receive when we are resurrected from the dead.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation.
There are several places in the NT where the local people who knew Jesus as Joseph and Mary's son found it hard to believe He was 'that Prophet', and this is one reason, I think, that the establishment that His Father really is in heaven - through the words which He spoke while Jesus was on earth (at His baptism, on the Mount of Transfiguration) and then by raising Him from the dead - is valid and vital. Both aspects are part of the gospel.
Rex, I'm very interested in what more you want to share about the redemption of woman. Brother, say on....
Hi John_8:32,
I enjoyed your post.
How come Jesus was made alive in His Spirit, if He never died Spiritually,
Jesus said He died Spiritually, And He ought to know, He was there.
For the truth, See my post on the subject.
Hi Rex,
I completely agree that there are limiting factors which must influence what we believe/teach, which are known to us through what we know about the nature of Christ: that he was totally divine, and, totally human - yet without the fatal flaw of the sin.
His humanity holds great interest for us, because it is His qualification as our Substitutionary Sacrifice.
Likewise, His divinity holds great interest for us, because having been born without the sin, He was qualified to be the sacrifice for our sins.
He Himself, as God's great Apostle - had another commission running simultaneously, which was twofold - to show us how to deal with Satan (which happens in different ways throughout the gospels), and finally, to crush the serpent Satan's head, as you quoted.
I am interested in both, to draw parallels between Christ the man, and us as humans, to identify the terms of our redemption through His blood.
Hi Alan,
Earlier in the thread you said:
Please think carefully about what we know from Genesis 1 and 2, before disagreeing with the change of emphasis I'm about to offer. I am not disagreeing that man has a body, spirit and soul. However, there are several places in scripture which help us to define the difference between God and man, and one of them is that 'God is a Spirit'; whereas 'And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul', Gen 2:7, by which we see that the primary definition of 'man', is 'dust of the ground', rather than spirit.
I have already quoted Ecc 12:7, which tells us that the spirit in man both came from God and goes back to God. 'Man' as an entity, is not an independent pure, holy spirit with creative powers in the same way as God is - but this is implied by you when you write 'Man.... Is a Spirit', capitalising Spirit and placing it next to soul, with body tagged along at the end. You will find greater consistency in the message of scripture, if you allow your thinking to be limited by the emphases which have been placed there by its writers, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
My reading of the following verses, is that Paul, also, allowed his thinking to be limited by God's previous revelations.
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven. 48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Paul is taking us right through the purpose of being born again, to the time when we will have our resurrection bodies in the world to come.
Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Luke 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
So, when we are thinking about the purpose of Christ's ministry on earth, and on the cross, and after His resurrection, and after His ascension, and after the Holy Spirit has been sent, we could limit ourselves to understand the steps God set Himself, to make us fit for 'the world to come'. This exercise will help us keep the end in view, as far as we know it, and to give proper context to many other aspects of God's eternal purposes.
Earlier, Rex wanted to take time to define spirit and soul. I believe the human spirit is the life-giving power which makes the human organism alive. The Hebrew word, nephesh, is used for the life of both men and animals - the breath of life - but it does not seem to be entirely neutral, in the sense that the body has something to do with what is brought to life. If it's a dog body, it behaves like a dog. If it's a horse body, it behaves like a horse. If it's a human body, it behaves like a human. These characteristics seem to be embedded in the body - genes; they don't come from the spirit.
Regarding the soul, the information is all over the place in scripture, as it seems to have its own metaphysical substance, which like a spirit which we cannot see, is nevertheless real, able to survive the physical death of the body, and somehow captures both the uniqueness of the person whose soul it is, and also captures a record of their whole life. This could be a depressing thought, if it were not for the blood of Christ which cleanses the soul from all sin, and for the healing love and compassion of God which David noted, 'restores my soul'. Psa 23:3 From this we learn that the soul can be damaged - injured, weakened, as well as strengthened and healed.
In my view, the simple definition that the soul is the 'mind will and emotions', goes not nearly far enough.
More than that, man's will is not really separate from the man himself and the life in his body which he expresses through his chosen actions. But even immobilised, he can exercise his will by the expression of his heart through his lips (if he can speak), and through his inward attitudes of mind. The emotions are a massive part of how his body expresses its responses to events and people, both in isolation, and in relationship. Heb 4:12
Likewise, from scripture we find that the spirit of a man can be damaged. Pro 18:14 Though this, too, can be healed by the power of God.
With these things in mind, we begin to see the extent of the corruption which sin brought into mankind, through the body.
Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said to the woman, [She heard with her ears.] Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. How do we 'know' anything, except through our bodies?
6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also to her husband with her; and he did eat.
This whole scenario falls apart if Adam and Eve had no bodies. The Word became flesh. Luke 24:42
I'm sure Axehead will have noticed the comment.
I have never noticed before today, that the serpent addressed Adam from the start, although only Eve responded. Look at everything the serpent says. Not once does he address Eve in the singular. In this, he was making sure to strike at the whole crown of God's creation - 'man'.
I completely agree that there are limiting factors which must influence what we believe/teach, which are known to us through what we know about the nature of Christ: that he was totally divine, and, totally human - yet without the fatal flaw of the sin.
His humanity holds great interest for us, because it is His qualification as our Substitutionary Sacrifice.
Likewise, His divinity holds great interest for us, because having been born without the sin, He was qualified to be the sacrifice for our sins.
He Himself, as God's great Apostle - had another commission running simultaneously, which was twofold - to show us how to deal with Satan (which happens in different ways throughout the gospels), and finally, to crush the serpent Satan's head, as you quoted.
I am interested in both, to draw parallels between Christ the man, and us as humans, to identify the terms of our redemption through His blood.
Hi Alan,
Earlier in the thread you said:
Please think carefully about what we know from Genesis 1 and 2, before disagreeing with the change of emphasis I'm about to offer. I am not disagreeing that man has a body, spirit and soul. However, there are several places in scripture which help us to define the difference between God and man, and one of them is that 'God is a Spirit'; whereas 'And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul', Gen 2:7, by which we see that the primary definition of 'man', is 'dust of the ground', rather than spirit.
I have already quoted Ecc 12:7, which tells us that the spirit in man both came from God and goes back to God. 'Man' as an entity, is not an independent pure, holy spirit with creative powers in the same way as God is - but this is implied by you when you write 'Man.... Is a Spirit', capitalising Spirit and placing it next to soul, with body tagged along at the end. You will find greater consistency in the message of scripture, if you allow your thinking to be limited by the emphases which have been placed there by its writers, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
My reading of the following verses, is that Paul, also, allowed his thinking to be limited by God's previous revelations.
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven. 48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Paul is taking us right through the purpose of being born again, to the time when we will have our resurrection bodies in the world to come.
Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Luke 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
So, when we are thinking about the purpose of Christ's ministry on earth, and on the cross, and after His resurrection, and after His ascension, and after the Holy Spirit has been sent, we could limit ourselves to understand the steps God set Himself, to make us fit for 'the world to come'. This exercise will help us keep the end in view, as far as we know it, and to give proper context to many other aspects of God's eternal purposes.
Earlier, Rex wanted to take time to define spirit and soul. I believe the human spirit is the life-giving power which makes the human organism alive. The Hebrew word, nephesh, is used for the life of both men and animals - the breath of life - but it does not seem to be entirely neutral, in the sense that the body has something to do with what is brought to life. If it's a dog body, it behaves like a dog. If it's a horse body, it behaves like a horse. If it's a human body, it behaves like a human. These characteristics seem to be embedded in the body - genes; they don't come from the spirit.
Regarding the soul, the information is all over the place in scripture, as it seems to have its own metaphysical substance, which like a spirit which we cannot see, is nevertheless real, able to survive the physical death of the body, and somehow captures both the uniqueness of the person whose soul it is, and also captures a record of their whole life. This could be a depressing thought, if it were not for the blood of Christ which cleanses the soul from all sin, and for the healing love and compassion of God which David noted, 'restores my soul'. Psa 23:3 From this we learn that the soul can be damaged - injured, weakened, as well as strengthened and healed.
In my view, the simple definition that the soul is the 'mind will and emotions', goes not nearly far enough.
More than that, man's will is not really separate from the man himself and the life in his body which he expresses through his chosen actions. But even immobilised, he can exercise his will by the expression of his heart through his lips (if he can speak), and through his inward attitudes of mind. The emotions are a massive part of how his body expresses its responses to events and people, both in isolation, and in relationship. Heb 4:12
Likewise, from scripture we find that the spirit of a man can be damaged. Pro 18:14 Though this, too, can be healed by the power of God.
With these things in mind, we begin to see the extent of the corruption which sin brought into mankind, through the body.
Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said to the woman, [She heard with her ears.] Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. How do we 'know' anything, except through our bodies?
6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also to her husband with her; and he did eat.
This whole scenario falls apart if Adam and Eve had no bodies. The Word became flesh. Luke 24:42
I'm sure Axehead will have noticed the comment.
I have never noticed before today, that the serpent addressed Adam from the start, although only Eve responded. Look at everything the serpent says. Not once does he address Eve in the singular. In this, he was making sure to strike at the whole crown of God's creation - 'man'.
Things in this thread are rather cloudy for me. I thought I observed Alan making an opening statement that contradicts my understanding "Christ divine nature He was born with"
I know and have learned that when this issue comes up for me I simply stop.
Until someone can solidify the topic, direction, and point, then clearly present it I'm watching.
I'll be the first to admit this thread confuses me and rereading it from top to bottom is difficult to follow.
What I think dragonfly is saying is that separation from the body is by definition death, but at this point ???????
But I do believe there my be something to be learned, but so far my Spirit says wait, so I'm waiting.
I know and have learned that when this issue comes up for me I simply stop.
Until someone can solidify the topic, direction, and point, then clearly present it I'm watching.
I'll be the first to admit this thread confuses me and rereading it from top to bottom is difficult to follow.
What I think dragonfly is saying is that separation from the body is by definition death, but at this point ???????
But I do believe there my be something to be learned, but so far my Spirit says wait, so I'm waiting.
And as I said to them same to you...
Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
So now I say to you, where I go, you cannot come.
The Diaglott has it...
John 13:33 O little children, yet a little with you I am. You will seek me; and as I said to the Jews:
That where I go, you not are able to come; even to you I say now.
We do not go there, He comes back here.
And show me the scripures please.
Actually, I C&Ped 'em. Pretty straightforward.
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
We are here for the Millenium and then the Father Himself comes to the earth bringing the temple with Him. If you are in heaven at this time, you are going to be very lonely.
John 1:12-13 No mention of going to heaven.
John 3:3-8 No mention of going to heaven although you might read John 3:13.
James 1:18 No mention of going to heaven.
1 Pet 1:22-23 No mention of going to heaven.
1 John 5:1-4 No mention of going to heaven.
Now as far as begotten verses born...
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
When does this occur? At the resurrection...
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Else you render the scriptures invalid. Christ is the firstfruits.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
and so on.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Are you invisible?
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
At the resurrection, again, 1 Cor 15:23
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
When do we become incorruptible...
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
When? At the last trump, the return of Christ...
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The dead rise first, then those alive and remaining are changed. When? At the return of Christ.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
If you have flesh on your bones and blood coursing through your veins, you cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. You must be born as spirit in the resurrection to inherit the Kingdom. We are begotten now...
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Can we, in the flesh, sin? Yes...
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
When we are born by a resurrection from the dead, we will not sin. We will then be spirit.
Ah, the real question. Jesus Christ was stone cold dead for three days and three nights and lay in His tomb until His resurrection from the dead. At that time, He became the Firstborn among many brethren. We will be born at our resurrection at His coming.
Hi Rex,
I completely agree that there are limiting factors which must influence what we believe/teach, which are known to us through what we know about the nature of Christ: that he was totally divine, and, totally human - yet without the fatal flaw of the sin.
His humanity holds great interest for us, because it is His qualification as our Substitutionary Sacrifice.
Likewise, His divinity holds great interest for us, because having been born without the sin, He was qualified to be the sacrifice for our sins.
He Himself, as God's great Apostle - had another commission running simultaneously, which was twofold - to show us how to deal with Satan (which happens in different ways throughout the gospels), and finally, to crush the serpent Satan's head, as you quoted.
I am interested in both, to draw parallels between Christ the man, and us as humans, to identify the terms of our redemption through His blood.
Hi Alan,
Earlier in the thread you said:
Please think carefully about what we know from Genesis 1 and 2, before disagreeing with the change of emphasis I'm about to offer. I am not disagreeing that man has a body, spirit and soul. However, there are several places in scripture which help us to define the difference between God and man, and one of them is that 'God is a Spirit'; whereas 'And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul', Gen 2:7, by which we see that the primary definition of 'man', is 'dust of the ground', rather than spirit.
I have already quoted Ecc 12:7, which tells us that the spirit in man both came from God and goes back to God. 'Man' as an entity, is not an independent pure, holy spirit with creative powers in the same way as God is - but this is implied by you when you write 'Man.... Is a Spirit', capitalising Spirit and placing it next to soul, with body tagged along at the end. You will find greater consistency in the message of scripture, if you allow your thinking to be limited by the emphases which have been placed there by its writers, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
My reading of the following verses, is that Paul, also, allowed his thinking to be limited by God's previous revelations.
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven. 48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Paul is taking us right through the purpose of being born again, to the time when we will have our resurrection bodies in the world to come.
Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Luke 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
So, when we are thinking about the purpose of Christ's ministry on earth, and on the cross, and after His resurrection, and after His ascension, and after the Holy Spirit has been sent, we could limit ourselves to understand the steps God set Himself, to make us fit for 'the world to come'. This exercise will help us keep the end in view, as far as we know it, and to give proper context to many other aspects of God's eternal purposes.
Earlier, Rex wanted to take time to define spirit and soul. I believe the human spirit is the life-giving power which makes the human organism alive. The Hebrew word, nephesh, is used for the life of both men and animals - the breath of life - but it does not seem to be entirely neutral, in the sense that the body has something to do with what is brought to life. If it's a dog body, it behaves like a dog. If it's a horse body, it behaves like a horse. If it's a human body, it behaves like a human. These characteristics seem to be embedded in the body - genes; they don't come from the spirit.
Regarding the soul, the information is all over the place in scripture, as it seems to have its own metaphysical substance, which like a spirit which we cannot see, is nevertheless real, able to survive the physical death of the body, and somehow captures both the uniqueness of the person whose soul it is, and also captures a record of their whole life. This could be a depressing thought, if it were not for the blood of Christ which cleanses the soul from all sin, and for the healing love and compassion of God which David noted, 'restores my soul'. Psa 23:3 From this we learn that the soul can be damaged - injured, weakened, as well as strengthened and healed.
In my view, the simple definition that the soul is the 'mind will and emotions', goes not nearly far enough.
More than that, man's will is not really separate from the man himself and the life in his body which he expresses through his chosen actions. But even immobilised, he can exercise his will by the expression of his heart through his lips (if he can speak), and through his inward attitudes of mind. The emotions are a massive part of how his body expresses its responses to events and people, both in isolation, and in relationship. Heb 4:12
Likewise, from scripture we find that the spirit of a man can be damaged. Pro 18:14 Though this, too, can be healed by the power of God.
With these things in mind, we begin to see the extent of the corruption which sin brought into mankind, through the body.
Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said to the woman, [She heard with her ears.] Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. How do we 'know' anything, except through our bodies?
6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also to her husband with her; and he did eat.
This whole scenario falls apart if Adam and Eve had no bodies. The Word became flesh. Luke 24:42
I'm sure Axehead will have noticed the comment.
I have never noticed before today, that the serpent addressed Adam from the start, although only Eve responded. Look at everything the serpent says. Not once does he address Eve in the singular. In this, he was making sure to strike at the whole crown of God's creation - 'man'.
[1]Jesus is God, Jn 1: 1, And Jesus is a Spirit, Lk 23: 46. The Greek word id, "Pneuma".
Jesus has a soul, Acts 2: 27, & v31. The Greek word is, "Psuche".
Jesus has a body, Matt 27: 57--60. The Greel word is, "Soma".
Three different Greek words, Three different parts of Jesus.
At Jesus death, His body was in a tomb The Greek word for "tomb" is, " Mnemeion".
His Spirit/Soul was in Hell, Acts 2: 27 & 31. The Greek word for "Hell" Is "Hades.
Two different Greek words, Two different places.
And man is Spirit soul and body. 1 Thess 5: 23.
[2]1 Cor 15: 44--45 Isn't talking about the rebirth, It is talking about the BODY, Not the spirit, Our bodies will be changed either at the resurrection or the Rapture, Depending if one is dead or alive.
If your not born again at the resurrection, You'll never get born again.
The Bible makes it quote clear that we must be born again before we leave this earth, And the Bible makes it quoite clear that we are born again in this life.
There you go AGAIN, Twisting the scriptures,
It is obvious that your not born again.
Look Alan I"m a bit challenged with proper English and expressing myself in the written form, but I have to tell you your post is as clear as mud to me.
Ruff childhood, I disliked my English teacher.
I might add he disliked me as well
Ruff childhood, I disliked my English teacher.
I might add he disliked me as well
Seems pretty obvious to me that the only one who has been born again at this time is Christ, the firstborn among many brethren.
So am I to understand that Christ didn't really die? If He didn't then He really didn't die for your and my sins. Well crap, now we are all condemned to death because the wages of sin is death and Christ was supposed to be slain from the foundation of the world for our sins. Now you tell me that He really wasn't, well there goes all of my hope.
[1]Jesus was the first to be born again, And obviousley He was the only one at that time, But after He rose from the dead, The disciples were born again first,
In Jn 20:22. Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit into some of His disciples, I know Peter was one of those born again at that time, Because in Jn 21: 15--17, He said he loved Jesus with the "AGAPE" Love of God... And you can't have the Agape love of god unles you are born of God,[Born again].
And All born again Christians have the agape love of God, As Gal 5: 22. Eph 3: 17. Eph 5: 2. 1 Thess 3: 12. tells us.
so you can see that we are born again in this life, And it's to late after your dead.
[2]Jesus did die, Spiritually and physically, And He rose again, If He didn't, We will be still in our sins and on our way to hell.
Hi Alan,
Until the second death, no spirit can die.
What died, was Jesus body, because His spirit went back to God, and the Holy Spirit left Him Psa 22:1 when He took our sins upon Himself. But He Himself remained pure, the spotless Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world.
Until the second death, no spirit can die.
What died, was Jesus body, because His spirit went back to God, and the Holy Spirit left Him Psa 22:1 when He took our sins upon Himself. But He Himself remained pure, the spotless Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world.
[1]Spirits at the second death, Are already dead.
[2]Everyone who isn't born again is spiritually dead. The rebirth is becoming alive to God, Born of His Spirit, A partaker of God's divine nature and having the agope love of God in us.
[3]Jesus died Spiritually, And He ought to know, He was there at the time, And said so Himself.
His Spirit never went back to God, Only born again Spirits go to God, And as Jesus was Spiritually dead, He went to hell,
Act 2: 27-31.
And How come Jesus was made alive in His Spirit, if He never died Spiritually,
You yourself quoted Ps 22: 1, Saying the Holy Spirit left Jesus, And if the Holy Spirit leaves anyone, They are spiritually dead, As is anyone who doesn't have the Holy Spirit, [Anyone who isn't born again].
Alan,
Do you believe Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man? Do you believe in the Deity of Christ?
My conviction has been since the time of my salvation that Jesus NEVER sinned or became a sinner (including while on the Cross), and the simple easy reason to remember without a long theological discussion was that a sinner couldn't pay the penalty or we'd all be able to pay our own debt.
There are many scriptures that state Jesus was a Lamb without spot or blemish, a sacrifical Lamb, a sin-offering. (Ephesians 5:2) and it is the teaching in the Old Testament which was a type and shadow of Christ, the "Lamb of God".
Through out God's Word we're taught that Jesus was sinless, that He and The Father were one. (John 14:7-11) In II Corinthians 5:19 we're told that God was IN Christ, reconciling the world to Himself.
If Christ took on Satan’s nature and died spiritually (that is what the JDS doctrine teaches):
1. What happened to the Trinity? What happened to the Christ God? Did this Spiritual death affect the Father and the Holy Spirit? Did Jesus the man go to hell while Jesus God watched?
JDS teaches that Christ took on Satan's nature. Obviously that does damage to the Godhead don't you think? The Deity of Christ (Christ was no longer Deity while he was Satanic), and the work of Christ (had to be completed in Hell rather than on the Cross).
If we are going to talk about "spiritual death" lets put it in light of the scripture and define it as scripture does, or show from scripture that "spiritual death" is separation from God in no uncertain terms.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Christ is “firstborn” in the sense that he is the preeminent one over all creation. He wasn’t born again in hell. Indeed, he didn’t need to be born again in any way (John 3:3, 6–7).
The Nestorian Heresy has been used by some claiming that Jesus the man suffered while Jesus the God watched on. This flies straight in to the face of the Hypostatic Union.
1. Nestorian Heresy
One Word-Faith apologist tried saying that the Jesus-God watched as Jesus-Man became satanic and a sinner. The two were separated while Jesus-Man had died spiritually and was then raised from the dead to become born again.
This is known as the Nestorian heresy that was deemed heresy at the Chalcedon.
2 Corinthians 5:21 – Christ became a sinner
"For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
Jesus did not literally become sin or become a sinner. God looked at him as if he were a sinner. God viewed Christ as a sin offering just as a spotless lamb in the OT was an OFFERING for SIN.
It is finished, The Veil
The Greek word used here for “finished” is "Teleo" which means, “The debt is paid in full”. That debt is yours and my sin and Jesus accomplished, completed and concluded what He was sent to do on our behalf.
teleō
tel-eh'-o
From G5056; to end, that is, complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt): - accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.
John 19
29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.
When Christ died, the Veil to the Holy of Holies ripped from top to bottom signifying that sinful man now has direct access to God.
There was no suffereing required in Hell as direct access to God (the sacrifice and mission was complete) was restored.
Luke 23:45, Mark 15:38, Matthew 27:51
We are redeemed by the precious blood of Christ, not by fictitious sufferings in Hell.
1 Peter 1:19
18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
Axehead
Death could not hold Him
Acts 2:24
Romans 4:24 who raised "from" the dead not that he was dead
Col 2:12
Gal 1:1
1 Cor 6:14
and it goes on and on "from" the dead
Acts 2:24
Romans 4:24 who raised "from" the dead not that he was dead
Col 2:12
Gal 1:1
1 Cor 6:14
and it goes on and on "from" the dead
I skimmed most of the discussion. I think Rex mentioned a lot of confusion. I think for a proper discussion to occur, there should be some clarity and equal ground found on some key terms. What does it mean for a spirit to die? Does spiritual death actually mean non existence, or does separation from God in relationship mean the same thing? Why does God/Jesus call some dead people sleeping? If our body isn't spared in this life, what does that say about Christ's work on the cross? There has to be at least some consensus on some of these questions. Otherwise, there isn't a basis for theological discussion.
