Redoing my, "History of the Trinity thread/blogging series here"

[Pavel Mosko]

2-3 years ago, I posted this topic when it was banned much to my great surprise. So, I am redoing it, seeing how I have gotten positive feedback from my comment in a thread on the Trinity in the unorthodox doctrine board. I have used my Facebook account as a Defacto Christian Blog, where I sometimes do topical series. But it probably will be a little better than last time, learning new things all the time. Since then, I have gotten involved in Apologetics dealing with anti-Chrisitan rabbi Tovia Singer who is a strong Polemicist against this dogma as well as Christian theological development in general.





Post 1
Elohim (another name for God in the OT)

For Trinitarians like myself this name is the first hint of the Trinity we get in the Bible. We might actually call it the seed form of the dogma. The word is a generic form of God but it has a plural ending.

While being a piece of evidence for the Trinity it is not enough. Early Jews never understood it as implying something like the Trinity, and there exists multiple other reasons why even Christian Trinitarian scholars suggest why it exists.

1) It's a remnant of older words in Akkadian that are used for older polytheistic religions.

2) It is a "Plural of Majesty" (Like the Royal We in British English), other Semitic languages are known to strengthen an important root word, by adding letters etc. to reinforce it. Allah in Arabic is the word Alah (God) in Aramaic that had an extra letter put in the stem to make it stronger to emphasize its importance.

Besides this it should be noted, In the OT, God is also known as "The Lord of Hosts" (Angels) etc. So yet another reason for a Plural of Majesty. (This post is one of the biggest nuggets I got from my Hebrew Class at Fuller Theological Seminary extension Northern California 29 years or so ago. Biblical languages however are not my thing!)

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Post 2
I once was a graduate student of psychology previous to being interested in studying the Bible, Theology, Church history as a would be career. One interesting insight that I learned from studying Adlerian psychotherapy that had ramifications to other areas was how people's present state impacted how they remembered the past. (How they felt in the present moment tended to bias pro and con their memories of the past). This kind of phenomenon impacts a lot of areas including one. I cover this topic a lot differently that I did 10-12 years ago because of study. But you will also find lots of differences in how this topic is covered vs. decades ago for folks interested in more recent scholarship. So much earlier scholarship weighted the importance of Hellenic philosophy of the time on the subject matter rather than various trends going on in Judaism.

A few years ago, I was happy to read my online copy of Fr. De Young's, "The Religion of the Apostles". In that book De Young makes a strong case for how Judaism changed in the aftermath of beginning the project of the Talmud. He talks about "hard" and "soft" monotheism. One thing we take for granted is the very concept of "monotheism". That exact term did not really come into existence around the time of Reformation. Besides that the kind of "Monotheism" that we think of today would be the "harder" absolutist monotheism that came from Talmudic Judaism, that later became even more normalized with the rise of Islam.

Before the time of the Talmud the Jews did not think so much in the category of "monotheism" as they did in terms of their God vs. the pagan religions that surrounded them. While they worshipped "One God" this was a bit of a fuzzy concept, because there were a lot of strange things going on in their scriptures, in the visions of their prophets, and in the various divine appearances that take place over centuries.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Post 3

Sometime in the Second Temple period, a theology developed known as "Two Powers in Heaven." While later Talmudic Judaism attacked this idea as undermining the scriptural affirmation of "God as One," it is entirely reasonable and viable within the biblical portrayal of God as a monarch—the most ancient conception of God in the Bible. This concept persists in modern Judaism today, where worshipers frequently recite the blessing: "Baruch Atah Adonai Eloheinu Melech Ha'Olam" ("Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the Universe"). This formula appears throughout the Passover Seder (for example, in the blessings over the wine, matzah, and other elements).

One aspect of monarchy that is often overlooked is how rulers routinely delegate authority to servants, cabinet members, or family. The Bible provides one of the clearest examples in Joseph’s service to Pharaoh:

Genesis 41:39–44 (NKJV) Then Pharaoh said to Joseph, “Inasmuch as God has shown you all this, there is no one as discerning and wise as you. You shall be over my house, and all my people shall be ruled according to your word; only in regard to the throne will I be greater than you.” And Pharaoh said to Joseph, “See, I have set you over all the land of Egypt.” Then Pharaoh took his signet ring off his hand and put it on Joseph’s hand; and he clothed him in garments of fine linen and put a gold chain around his neck. And he had him ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried out before him, “Bow the knee!” So he set him over all the land of Egypt. Pharaoh also said to Joseph, “I am Pharaoh, and without your consent no man may lift his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.”

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Grok gave me a lot of help fleshing out a very rough draft / outline.


Post 4: Examples of "Two Powers in Heaven" in the Bible Example 1: When the Angel of the Lord Does Not Act Like a Normal Angel

One of the strongest biblical patterns supporting the ancient "Two Powers in Heaven" concept is the unique behavior of the Angel of the Lord (or Angel of Yahweh). Unlike ordinary angels, this figure often speaks and acts with the full authority and identity of God Himself—while still being distinct from the Father who sends Him. This creates a visible/invisible or earthly/heavenly duality within the one God.

Point A: Regular Angels Refuse Worship — The Angel of the Lord Accepts It (or Is Identified as God)​

Ordinary angels consistently reject worship and redirect it to God alone, emphasizing they are fellow servants:

• Revelation 19:10 — John falls at the angel’s feet to worship. The angel replies: “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!”
• Revelation 22:8-9 — Similar rebuke: “I am your fellow servant... Worship God.”

In contrast, the Angel of the Lord accepts worship or is directly identified as God, with no rebuke:

• Joshua 5:13-15 — Joshua meets the Commander of the Lord’s army. Joshua worships (“fell on his face to the earth and worshiped”) and is told to remove his sandal because the place is holy—echoing God’s words to Moses at the burning bush. No rebuke.
• Judges 13:20-22 (Manoah and his wife) — They see the Angel ascend in the flame. Manoah declares, “We shall surely die, for we have seen God!”
• Genesis 16:7-13 (Hagar) — The Angel speaks as God: “I will greatly multiply your descendants...” Hagar calls Him “You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees.”
• Numbers 22:31 (Balaam) — Balaam bows and worships.

This distinction is key: created angels refuse worship. The Angel of the Lord does not—because He carries divine identity.

Point B: God Acts Through the Angel to Perform Miracles and Divine Works​

The Angel of the Lord is not merely a messenger delivering news. God performs miracles and exercises divine power directly through Him:

• Exodus 3:2-6 (Burning Bush) — “The Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire... God called to him from the midst of the bush” and says, “I am the God of your father...”
• Judges 6:11-23 (Gideon) — The Angel touches food with His staff, causing fire to consume the offering (a divine acceptance of sacrifice). Gideon realizes he has seen the Angel of the Lord face to face and fears death.
• Exodus 14:19 & 23:20-23 — The Angel goes before Israel in the pillar of cloud/fire and leads them, with God promising to be with him and forgive (or not) rebellion against him.
• Other examples include the Angel shutting the lions’ mouths (Daniel 6), delivering from Egypt (Judges 2:1), and striking down enemies.

In these cases, the Angel is the visible agent through whom the invisible God acts powerfully.

Point C: The Name of the Lord Is “Inside” the Angel​

A crucial text is Exodus 23:20-21:

“Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him.”

Apologist Sam Shamoun explains this powerfully in his articles:

“The reason why the Angel is able to forgive sins is that he happens to bear the Divine Name... In other words, the Angel embodies the Divine Name!” (From Shamoun’s writings on the Divine Name and Glory of Yahweh in the Angel.)

This is not a generic title. Bearing God’s Name means sharing in His authority, essence, and prerogatives (including forgiving or not forgiving sins). In the ancient world, a name represented the full character and presence of the person. The Angel carries Yahweh’s Name “inside” Him—another indicator of divine identity alongside the Father.

Point D: Miscellaneous Points Showing the Angel’s Unique Divine Status​

• The Angel Speaks as God in the First Person — e.g., Genesis 31:11-13 (to Jacob): “I am the God of Bethel...”
• The Angel Makes Covenantal Promises Only God Can Keep — Multiplying descendants, delivering nations, etc.
• Interchangeability in the Text — Passages switch between “the Angel” and “the Lord/Yahweh” in the same scene (Exodus 3; Judges 6).
• Pre-Incarnate Appearances — Many Christian interpreters (and some ancient Jewish ones) see this as the Second Person of the Godhead appearing visibly—fitting the “Two Powers” framework before later rabbinic rejection.

These examples show the Bible itself presents a visible, personal Agent who is fully divine (bearing God’s Name, receiving worship, performing God’s acts) yet distinct from the One who sends Him. This is not ditheism (two separate gods), but a profound biblical monotheism that allows for complexity within God’s unity—foundational to later Trinitarian understanding.

This pattern in Scripture helps explain why “Two Powers in Heaven” was a viable interpretation in Second Temple Judaism. It wasn’t innovation—it was faithful reading of the text.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I wanted more development of the notion of the angel of the Lord carrying the name of the Lord "within him", that is "having his essence" or nature. While I could explain it talking about some areas of the Bible where names given to a child have prophetic significance. There are more blatant examples in modern times dealing with areas of occultism where the names of being carry supernatural power, but since that area is off putting for Christians, I decided to see if I could get coax Grok to dig up more detailed commentary on that topic from Sam Shamoun because I recalled a lot of excellent commentary on this topic from his debates with non-Christians and nontrinitarian Christians, and I did manage to get what I was looking for.



Expanded Commentary from Sam Shamoun on the Divine Name in the Angel of the Lord (Exodus 23:20-21)

Sam Shamoun has written extensively on this in articles such as "The Divine Name and Glory of Yahweh – More Biblical Evidence for the Deity of God’s Unique Angel/Son" and related pieces (e.g., on the Angel as the Glorious Messenger). He directly addresses how God’s statement “My name is in Him” (Hebrew: ki shemi b’qirbo) shows the Angel bearing/embodying Yahweh’s very essence, nature, and divine prerogatives—while remaining distinct from the One who sends Him. This is a core pillar in his defense of the Angel as a visible manifestation of the Second Person of the Godhead (pre-incarnate Christ).

Here are the key excerpts from Shamoun (verbatim where possible, with context for clarity):

1. The Name = God’s Essence, Nature, Attributes, and Being​

Shamoun first establishes the biblical meaning of “the Name”:

“When Yahweh proclaims his Name he does so by highlighting some of his many qualities, thereby equating the Name with Yahweh’s nature and characteristics. In other words, to speak of the Name is to speak of Yahweh’s essence, nature, attributes, power, authority etc. Thus, to have the Divine Name is to possess all the essential attributes of Deity, and whomever bears that Name must be God in nature.”

He ties this to broader Scripture (e.g., Psalms, Deuteronomy, Malachi) where the Name is treated as synonymous with God Himself—bringing salvation, protection, judgment, and even creation.

2. Direct Application to Exodus 23:20-23 – The Angel “Embodies” the Divine Name​

Shamoun then applies this to the Angel:

“See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. … Exodus 23:20-23 What is truly remarkable about this particular Angel is that Yahweh warns the Israelites not to rebel against this Messenger because he will not forgive their rebellion since he embodies the Divine Name! In other words, the reason why the Angel is able to forgive sins is that he happens to bear the Divine Name.”

And in another article:

“To bear God’s name is to bear the very nature of God. Thus, the Angel embodies God’s very own nature which explains why he can choose to forgive sins or not, a prerogative which the OT scriptures emphatically teach belongs only to God.”

“The reason God gives for this Angel being able to forgive sins is because he embodies the Divine name within his own person, which is simply another way of saying that this Angel is God in essence.”

3. The Angel Is God in Essence, Yet Distinct (Trinitarian Implication)​

Shamoun repeatedly emphasizes this creates a “Two Powers” dynamic within the one God:

“Yet, as we already saw, having the Divine Name is synonymous to possessing all of the essential attributes of Deity, which means that the Angel is both God and distinct from God at the same time. … It is therefore quite clear that the reason why the Angel bears the Divine Name is because he himself happens to be God in essence, even though he is also personally distinct from God.”

He connects this to the pre-incarnate Christ (Christophany):

• The Angel speaks as God in the first person, makes covenants only God can make, receives worship, and performs divine acts.
• Shamoun notes that appearances of this specific Angel cease after the Incarnation—consistent with the Second Person becoming flesh.
• He cites scholars (e.g., NET Bible notes, Cassuto, Driver, McNeile, Ryrie) who affirm the Angel as “Jehovah Himself in a temporary descent to visibility” or “the manifestation of my being” in the Messenger.

Shamoun also quotes Dr. Robert A. Morey in related discussions: the Divine Name in the Angel means “the angel IS THE EMBODIMENT OF GOD’S PERSONALITY.”

How This Fits “Two Powers in Heaven” and the Trinity​

For Shamoun, this is not ditheism but the biblical foundation for God being multi-personal (later fully revealed as Triune). The Father sends the Angel who fully shares His Name/essence/authority—exactly the kind of “Two Powers” theology present in Second Temple Judaism before later rabbinic rejection. It prefigures New Testament passages where Jesus receives and bears the Father’s Name (e.g., John 17:11-12; Philippians 2:9-11; Revelation 19:12-13).

Suggested insertion for your Post 4, Point C (replacing or expanding the shorter quote I gave earlier):

A crucial text is Exodus 23:20-21: “Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him.”
Apologist Sam Shamoun explains: “To bear God’s name is to bear the very nature of God. Thus, the Angel embodies God’s very own nature… the reason why the Angel is able to forgive sins is that he happens to bear the Divine Name… which is simply another way of saying that this Angel is God in essence.” (From “The Divine Name and Glory of Yahweh” and related articles.)
In the ancient biblical worldview, the Name was not a mere label—it communicated the full essence, character, power, and authority of the person. By placing His Name “inside” the Angel, Yahweh equips this Messenger with every essential attribute of Deity while keeping Him personally distinct. This is why Shamoun concludes the Angel is “both God and distinct from God at the same time”—a profound pointer to the multi-personal nature of the one true God.