Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Go deeper than that.
It comes down to whether you're a person that can and will ultimately love and embrace righteousness when subjected to the grace of God to do so.
Reformers month (part 2)
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It comes down to whether you're a person that can and will ultimately love and embrace righteousness when subjected to the grace of God to do so.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
No, your will isn't stronger than God's. But that doesn't have to mean the Almighty God won't, or can't, let you walk in your own will. That's an erroneous, short sided conclusion that Calvinism comes to.
Just because God chooses to not exercise his stronger will on another person doesn't make the other person's will somehow stronger than his. It means he has chosen to not impress his will on that person. That's all.
This is where irresistible grace comes in. The doctrine of irresistible grace simply recognizes that the Bible teaches God is sovereign and can overcome all resistance when He wills to. What God decrees or determines will come to pass. This truth is seen throughout Scripture. In Daniel 4:35, we see that “He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand!” Psalm 115:3 declares, “Our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.” God’s grace in salvation is irresistible because when God sets out to fulfill His sovereign purpose, no person or thing can successfully resist Him. So the real question is, how much time will God take to convert us?
No we cannot thwart God's plan. Your problem my friend may be in failing to see what God 's plan is.
God gave men a choice: to do things His Way or not.
God made men with the ability to move against Him. To do so is not wise, but the first unwise choice made in scripture was with Adam and Eve when they decided to go their own way instead of God's. The offspring of Adam and Eve have similarly been making unwise choices continuously ever since.
God wants people to love Him and to live loving Him when they have other alternatives. All men have gone with the alternatives. Are they all continuing to choose those unwise alternatives? There are some few exceptions!
Jesus was sent to allow men the option of going back and doing better than Adam and Eve did at the beginning. The possibility exists now because of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but it must be chosen by men.
Choosing is only the beginning. Men cannot make it to the end of his allotted time, his course, on the Lord's side, all alone, but by choosing the way of God and continuously yielding the lead of themselves to the Holy Spirit thus opening the Way for God to provide the needed help.
God in His plan limited Himself by His own Word. Man, while he has time, has the option of removing the limitation on God... but the following verse shows how it has been too often and also is today in spite of the sacrifice of Jesus:
"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Psalm 78:41
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Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I think you're deviating from Calvinistic theology. I think Calvinism says God's grace always overcomes resistance, and where it appears that his grace has been resisted and overcome by man's will that is actually where God's grace has not really been provided at all. Feel free to fact check me on that.
The non-Calvinistic thinking is, no matter who chooses to resist his will they in no way hinder his plan and purpose for mankind because he knows there are people who will hear and believe and take their place in God's plan established before the beginning of time. The person who resists his grace simply doesn't get to be included in that plan. That's all. Paul says it like this:
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im not deviating, and yes, His grace does overcome resistance. But the issue is whether He wants to or not. Take pharoah. God hardened his heart, and didnt try to save him because God used pharoah to demonstrate His goodness and power to His chosen people. If something happens, God ordained and allowed it, for His glory. Again, we have no say on who is saved or whether we can even get saved. Its all up to God.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
The fact that it is all up to God doesn't have to mean we don't have to make a choice in the matter. It means no matter what you want or desire, ultimately, it's God who does the saving. You don't do the saving. That's all that means.
this is not difficult, you have NO say in getting saved. If God wants to save you, He will. He said the same about choosing the jewish people over others. He will save who He wants to save. He gives us free will, but not towards salvation. You want a white car instead of black? Fine, thats the limit of free will that He gives. You like pasta over chinese food? Fine. He’ll let you pick that. But when it comes to salvation, you dont have a single drop of free will.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
You're not understanding what that means.
That doesn't mean one day you wake up and find out God decided for you that you're now a believer from this day forth. (Unless you're John the Baptist, of course).
What it means is you can not provide anything toward effecting your own justification. That is entirely by the grace of God's forgiveness.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
If you CAN be saved, He will.
I think that is the more accurate understanding.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
And yet the vast majority of Jews are NOT saved. But that does not thwart God's plan and purpose and promise to save Jewish people. Understand?
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
What that means is your desire to be saved is not what saves you. The actual agent of justification is God's forgiveness. The actual thing that justifies you is God's gracious forgiveness.
ALL things are possible with God. He can save anyone. No one is beyond saving.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
There are some people who just aren't ever going to believe. They don't want to, even when presented with the grace of God to do so:
i dont believe that. Nothing is impossible for God. If He wants someone saved, they WILL be saved. No. Matter. What.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Do you mean saved as in they will be a believer? Or saved whether they believe or not?
Philip James
Well-Known Member
When a virtuous man turns away from virtue to commit iniquity, and dies, it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die.
But if a wicked man, turning from the wickedness he has committed, does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life;
since he has turned away from all the sins which he committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
And yet the house of Israel says, "The LORD'S way is not fair!" Is it my way that is not fair, house of Israel, or rather, is it not that your ways are not fair?
Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways, says the Lord GOD. Turn and be converted from all your crimes, that they may be no cause of guilt for you.
Cast away from you all the crimes you have committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. Why should you die, O house of Israel?
For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies, says the Lord GOD. Return and live!
Pax et Bonum!
they will be a believer. Conviction of the Holy Spirit can be a powerful thing.
@Lifelong_sinner Indeed there does need to be the work of the Spirit. I'm struck by just how much the work of the Spirit is central to a mighty chapter such as Romans 8.
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