Refuting Penal Substitution Jesus Did NOT Satisfy the Wrath of God On The Cross!!
- Thread starter DoveSpirit05
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PEOPLE DONT LISTEN TO ME LISTEN 2 GOD, THE HOLY SPIRIT AND SCRIPTURE!! PRAY, FAST AND SEEK GOD EVERY SECOND AND HE WILL GUIDE U 2 TRUTH!! PROV 3:5-6
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
My question is did the sons of Zebedee drink of the same cup that Jesus drank of, and do you believe there are two cups?
if ur talking about james his brother and the other apostles yes!! they drank of the cup of suffering not wrath, jesus said take dis cup from me lord nether the less not my will ur will,
name me who has ever said lord take dis cup of wrath from me and he has taken it away!! its 4 the wicked not the righteous!! and the apostles were killed 4 being righteous too not by God tho!! dat was their portion the cup of suffering not wrath, jesus said we wud suffer as Christians not suffer wrath tho!
Well, yeah, Jesus has taken the wrath on himself so Christians don't have to. I thought that was what you were protesting against.?
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Ok, so considering the cup of the fellowship of His suffering, He tells those at Corinth that if they drink unworthily, they drink upon themselves the wrath of God?
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
1 Corinthians 11:29 KJV
[29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
So what’s in the cup?
Tecarta Bible
[29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
So what’s in the cup?
Tecarta Bible
hes talking about the offering of bread and wine in jesus's name!! and u need 2 rightly divide the word coz if u don't then every person who drinks from a cup in the bible (literally) is drinking Gods wrath which i'm sure ur alluding 2,
here paul is talking about certain ceremonial churches who (literally) call the body or the bread Christ like the catholic church and their sacraments so their actually performing cannibalism and human sacrifice!! 1 Corinth 11:30 and for this cause some are sick and sleep!! that's the catholic church for yah, ive seen many of the people in those churches especially the elderly, they look very old and poorly, a lot of them are maimed, limping 2 church and have other body disfigurement.
that's wat happens when people don't read the word carefully and twist it, they end up cursing themselves and God also gives dem over 2 it, 2 thes 2:9-12 same thing in the old.T people would do stupid rituals and ceremonies and they were cursed 4 it.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
It’s apparent that you have no idea what I’m alluding too.
And that’s okay. Thanks for your time.
Our sins killed Jesus. The roman soldiers who crucified Jesus, were the representative of all the abuse and failure we have done in our lives. Through this failure we destroyed our relationship with God and gave up hope of ever following Him. Jesus could have just said "I forgive you" and meant it, but that would not have changed us, driven to the heart of the problem, faced us with the why we go so wrong and what needs to be done about it.
But Jesus taking all the evil, and submitting himself to it, unto death and forgiving those who did these things, that is love, that is salvation, that is a heart and truth we need in our hearts and souls.
This God, our Saviour is worthy of being listened to, followed and obeyed because He can deliver and be trusted.
That to me is the dynamic of why the cross had to be, why it had to happen, why it had to be God who did it, why it is the most significant event in history. And our faith is founded on the forgiveness of the guilt we carry in His death, that we are the romans, blindly doing what must be done, and not knowing why or how, but it being inevitable, part of being in the world.
And Jesus standing, accepting, and saying there is another way, that overcomes and transforms this path into eternity and a glorious salvation.
So Jesus became the object of justice for sin, and in so doing conquered for us our guilt and shame and made us Holy, cleansed, pure and whole.
So I do not see God pouring out wrath on Jesus, or His judgement for the world, rather God took our sin, and let Him be sinned against, and forgave us. And if God could forgive us of our worst behaviour, He can forgive me of mine, and He can change me to become the example He is when I let God rule in my heart. It is this personal meeting the King that is our eternal life, this truth that exalts above all else that lasts forever.
Peter grasped this so well. He loved Jesus, yet got it wrong, was confused, things went sideways, but he knew Jesus knew and forgave him, and with opens arms welcomed him home. Unfortunately the more I see this reality the less theological ideas matter or make sense.
Thank you Jesus
What did we need?
Some claim all we need is our sins forgiven. Now how many take communion, pray, repent and are cleansed yet tomorrow the same cycle of failure occurs. We need more than just sins forgiven.
Jesus talked to many, healing them and forgiving their sins, yet they did not become believers. The woman caught in adultery was forgiven and told to sin no more. I have heard people claim the only reason we need Jesus is to gain forgiveness of sins, as if, if we could find sinless walking we would not need God at all or salvation. And there is the problem. Sin is a sign of our bad relationship with the King, and distortions of what matters to us and how we can know a loving open walk with the Lord.
If you see Jesus, you will see something profound. He is so dynamic and fantastic you want to do anything for Him and follow whatever He tells you. There is a depth and a trust that is difficult to quantify or understand, because the deeper you go, the further it extends.
And that is the cross. It shows without doubt who God is and His heart, against which there is no argument. It goes beyond our ability to hold pain, dedication or endurance. It is so vast that the creator, gave it all up, to get to know us, and then submit to the worst, missguided, self possessed and determined, greedy, self indulgent people drunk on power, and forgive them of killing Him. It is the impression He left with the apostles, their different takes on His words and actions, slightly different orders and importance, makes this man, our Lord. It is the problem of perfection meeting flawed people, we all see only what we can cope with at first, and slowly the whole picture becomes clear. Telling us the perfect story, would just show it could be fake, invented, contrived, exaggerated with the wrong emphasis. And the words, when put into action, shine like lights of truth, eternal, like beacons, which only come alive when lived, and the fruit appears.
And in history, Jesus needed to come when the pharisees had arisen, the most pedantic, followers of the law, to the letter, who tried to fulfil it all, yet failed at the heart and reality, but was the best attempt yet. What a change from the people who came out of Egypt, full of relief and rebellion, who turned over Gods revelation for a party, or Israel who openly committed idolatry generation after generation. But here in Israel, Herods temple restored with sacrifices, a fulfilment of the return of Gods people to Jerusalem, ready for the Kingdom of God to be revealed.
Some claim all we need is our sins forgiven. Now how many take communion, pray, repent and are cleansed yet tomorrow the same cycle of failure occurs. We need more than just sins forgiven.
Jesus talked to many, healing them and forgiving their sins, yet they did not become believers. The woman caught in adultery was forgiven and told to sin no more. I have heard people claim the only reason we need Jesus is to gain forgiveness of sins, as if, if we could find sinless walking we would not need God at all or salvation. And there is the problem. Sin is a sign of our bad relationship with the King, and distortions of what matters to us and how we can know a loving open walk with the Lord.
If you see Jesus, you will see something profound. He is so dynamic and fantastic you want to do anything for Him and follow whatever He tells you. There is a depth and a trust that is difficult to quantify or understand, because the deeper you go, the further it extends.
And that is the cross. It shows without doubt who God is and His heart, against which there is no argument. It goes beyond our ability to hold pain, dedication or endurance. It is so vast that the creator, gave it all up, to get to know us, and then submit to the worst, missguided, self possessed and determined, greedy, self indulgent people drunk on power, and forgive them of killing Him. It is the impression He left with the apostles, their different takes on His words and actions, slightly different orders and importance, makes this man, our Lord. It is the problem of perfection meeting flawed people, we all see only what we can cope with at first, and slowly the whole picture becomes clear. Telling us the perfect story, would just show it could be fake, invented, contrived, exaggerated with the wrong emphasis. And the words, when put into action, shine like lights of truth, eternal, like beacons, which only come alive when lived, and the fruit appears.
And in history, Jesus needed to come when the pharisees had arisen, the most pedantic, followers of the law, to the letter, who tried to fulfil it all, yet failed at the heart and reality, but was the best attempt yet. What a change from the people who came out of Egypt, full of relief and rebellion, who turned over Gods revelation for a party, or Israel who openly committed idolatry generation after generation. But here in Israel, Herods temple restored with sacrifices, a fulfilment of the return of Gods people to Jerusalem, ready for the Kingdom of God to be revealed.
As I said before, Jesus willingly took our punishment. It wasn't God abusing his son. There's no one theory of the atonement that is complete. He was our ransom, he conquered death and Satan, he was our substitute, and that's just for starters.
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