Regarding the Holy Spirit and His gifts I believe...

[Willie T]

Long story, short....
I got put on the spot at a healing seminar for asking a question. Called up front to have seven people come forward with the ailment I asked about. 5 totally healed, one took two times praying for him, and one lady was just there to put on a show by falling down. Not bad odds.

And I had no idea what I was doing, stammering through some half-mumbled prayer while apologizing to all of them for getting them hooked up with someone like me who knew nothing about that stuff.... (at the time.)

 

[brakelite]

I would like to propose another option for the poll. If I may be so bold.
I believe the baptism of the holy Spirit is most certainly for every believer, the gifts thereof are sure and true even for today, but the church at large had been deceived and what they think they have is the baptism and gifts, is in fact not

 

[APAK]

APAK,

Have you overlooked these verses from I Cor 14? They refute your view:

2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.... 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?... 9 Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.

13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they (sic) may interpret what they say (NIV).​

So the person who speaks in tongues by himself/herself is speaking to God and not to people. In 2018 there is a definite place for the God-given gift of tongues for private use.

But in the church or small group, tongues needs an interpreter to edify/build up the church.

To say tongues is 'false', violates these Scriptures. Could it be that you come to these Scriptures with a presuppositional bias against the continuing gifts of the Spirit?

Oz

Oz, I believe I am urged to do a short commentary of 1 Corinth 14 for you, at least. I believe you have completely ignored the context of this chapter and misinterpreted its scripture.

The setting here is Corinth, a busy ‘international’ port where many languages were spoken. Greek was not understood by many transients there. The assembly at Corinth possessed the gift of tongues and were abusing it. They were not edifying anyone at times and used it for selfish purposes in public forums. Like children that did not understand it purpose and power. Yes they used it in private prayer which was not to be condemned.

(1Co 14:2) For he that speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God. For no one understands, but in the Spirit he speaks mysteries.
(1Co 14:4) He that speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he that prophesises edifies the church.
(1Co 14:6) But now, brothers, if I came to you speaking with tongues, without speaking to you either by way of revelation, or of knowledge, or of prophesying, or of teaching- what shall I profit you? (NEV)

Now if verse 2 is not understood correctly it will skew the entire chapter and folks will get your type of meaning, which is incorrect and very damaging.

First, Verse 2 is not saying that if you speak in ‘babble,’ then this is great and is deliberately a mystery language not meant to be in a coherent foreign language form. And it is only to be used as a private language to God for one’s own edification and to be used in public also. That is a modern false view where a few modern denominations have made it their cornerstone scripture and interpretation.

Paul is saying in Verse 2 that it is wrong to speak in a foreign legitimate language or a slang or abbreviated version of it. Paul and no one else with the gift of a foreign language (tongue(s)) would ever recognize the ‘babble’ talk of some today. He would denounce it worse that what the Corinth were doing with their legitimate gift of foreign languages. The so-called gift of tongues today has no resemblance to the legitimate gift of tongues given in the days of Pentecost and several decades later.

Paul further goes on to say that only God would understand someone using this gift from the spirit and not anyone in ear-shot. It would be like a mystery language indeed to everyone else except God and it would be a selfish act that would only edify the speaker.

Again, Paul and scripture never even suggested or thought of a nonsensical or ‘babble’ talk as a gift for God. Paul always meant a coherent and foreign language that I guess can be called ‘babble’ is no one can understand it.

So, Paul was denouncing the improper use of this gift that does not edify anyone, in Verse 2 and other parts in this scripture. They were abusing this gift. This was one of Paul’s major points he was presenting to the congregation in Corinth. The gift of speaking or interpreting in/from another language was to be performed in public for the edification of the assembly – to a mixture of foreigners from many shores.

For the sake of brevity let me go further down to Verses 27 and 28. These reinforce what Paul was saying in Verse 2, Verse 4, Verse 6

(1Co 14:27) If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be by two, or at the most three; and even then in turn, and let one interpret.
(1Co 14:28) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church, and let him speak to himself and to God.

Therefore, the gift of a tongue was not understood by Paul and scripture to be a mysterious and of an ecstatic utterance or nature where some would communicate to God.

It was a gift of foreign comprehensible languages that was accessible to the public with an interpreter or, of private use only used in prayers to God.

Now is this gift of the tongues prevalent today as I said. My answer still is no. I do not even think the so-called gifts of tongues today are the same as in Paul’s days.


Oz, I never said the TRUE gift of tongues was false as you stated I said. I’m suggesting that the TRUE gift of tongues are not prevalent today and that some folks they believe they have a gift, is not a gift from God at all.

To answer your question, no I never overlooked I Corinth Chapter 14 as you can read. You just made me spell it out, a place I really did not want to go - get folks upset.


Bless you,


APAK

 

[Nancy]

Oz, I believe I am urged to do a short commentary of 1 Corinth 14 for you, at least. I believe you have completely ignored the context of this chapter and misinterpreted its scripture.

The setting here is Corinth, a busy ‘international’ port where many languages were spoken. Greek was not understood by many transients there. The assembly at Corinth possessed the gift of tongues and were abusing it. They were not edifying anyone at times and used it for selfish purposes in public forums. Like children that did not understand it purpose and power. Yes they used it in private prayer which was not to be condemned.

(1Co 14:2) For he that speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God. For no one understands, but in the Spirit he speaks mysteries.
(1Co 14:4) He that speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he that prophesises edifies the church.
(1Co 14:6) But now, brothers, if I came to you speaking with tongues, without speaking to you either by way of revelation, or of knowledge, or of prophesying, or of teaching- what shall I profit you? (NEV)

Now if verse 2 is not understood correctly it will skew the entire chapter and folks will get your type of meaning, which is incorrect and very damaging.

First, Verse 2 is not saying that if you speak in ‘babble,’ then this is great and is deliberately a mystery language not meant to be in a coherent foreign language form. And it is only to be used as a private language to God for one’s own edification and to be used in public also. That is a modern false view where a few modern denominations have made it their cornerstone scripture and interpretation.

Paul is saying in Verse 2 that it is wrong to speak in a foreign legitimate language or a slang or abbreviated version of it. Paul and no one else with the gift of a foreign language (tongue(s)) would ever recognize the ‘babble’ talk of some today. He would denounce it worse that what the Corinth were doing with their legitimate gift of foreign languages. The so-called gift of tongues today has no resemblance to the legitimate gift of tongues given in the days of Pentecost and several decades later.

Paul further goes on to say that only God would understand someone using this gift from the spirit and not anyone in ear-shot. It would be like a mystery language indeed to everyone else except God and it would be a selfish act that would only edify the speaker.

Again, Paul and scripture never even suggested or thought of a nonsensical or ‘babble’ talk as a gift for God. Paul always meant a coherent and foreign language that I guess can be called ‘babble’ is no one can understand it.

So, Paul was denouncing the improper use of this gift that does not edify anyone, in Verse 2 and other parts in this scripture. They were abusing this gift. This was one of Paul’s major points he was presenting to the congregation in Corinth. The gift of speaking or interpreting in/from another language was to be performed in public for the edification of the assembly – to a mixture of foreigners from many shores.

For the sake of brevity let me go further down to Verses 27 and 28. These reinforce what Paul was saying in Verse 2, Verse 4, Verse 6

(1Co 14:27) If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be by two, or at the most three; and even then in turn, and let one interpret.
(1Co 14:28) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church, and let him speak to himself and to God.

Therefore, the gift of a tongue was not understood by Paul and scripture to be a mysterious and of an ecstatic utterance or nature where some would communicate to God.

It was a gift of foreign comprehensible languages that was accessible to the public with an interpreter or, of private use only used in prayers to God.

Now is this gift of the tongues prevalent today as I said. My answer still is no. I do not even think the so-called gifts of tongues today are the same as in Paul’s days.


Oz, I never said the TRUE gift of tongues was false as you stated I said. I’m suggesting that the TRUE gift of tongues are not prevalent today and that some folks they believe they have a gift, is not a gift from God at all.

To answer your question, no I never overlooked I Corinth Chapter 14 as you can read. You just made me spell it out, a place I really did not want to go - get folks upset.


Bless you,


APAK

Good post Apak. I do believe that tongues are used today but, my guess is it is used in the far corners and little pockets of the world. I can certainly understand missionary's, not knowing these languages, and visa versa, being empowered with the gift of tongues (languages) to be able to bring the Gospel to these people in their own language.

 

[Enoch111]

The so-called gift of tongues today has no resemblance to the legitimate gift of tongues given in the days of Pentecost and several decades later.

Agreed. Unfortunately we will continue to hear about prayer language and why it is not the same as actual human language etc. Since this matter will never be resolved, it is best to leave it be.

If anyone should have had a special prayer language, it would have been the Lord Himself. But His prayers were in simply Aramaic.

Whenever the focus is on tongues and healings, all the other spiritual gifts go by the wayside.

 

[Frank Lee]

Who can figure out God's ways? They're past finding out the prophet said.

I twisted my ankle BADLY getting away from a Bees nest. A few stung me. I heard a sound like wadding up a paper sack as I was falling. It was misc. components in my ankle tearing!

My foot turned black from torn blood vessels. It swelled to football size. I prayed for it and was sitting around not able to even put on my shoe. Looking at it hurt me. The Lord spoke to me and said it's healed walk on it!

No way am I walking on that thing. I stood up testing it a little. The pain was completely gone. I walked up and down praising God on a foot that looked like it should be amputated. It was still black and swollen but felt fine. It took a day or so before I could force it into a shoe but it never hurt again at all. I have zero understanding of how Jesus does things but will just be thankful.

Once at the zoo with my wife and special niece I had a horrible toothache. I left them and went and lay down in our car seat the pain was so bad. I made a simple prayer asking God to give me the day with my family. In 30 seconds the pain vanished. There were a couple of shooting pains as it retreated but then it was gone. I went and joined my wife and niece and we had a great day.

So many testimonies of how God healed and delivered and protected us over the years. Literally saving our lives on different occasions.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz, I believe I am urged to do a short commentary of 1 Corinth 14 for you, at least. I believe you have completely ignored the context of this chapter and misinterpreted its scripture.

The setting here is Corinth, a busy ‘international’ port where many languages were spoken. Greek was not understood by many transients there. The assembly at Corinth possessed the gift of tongues and were abusing it. They were not edifying anyone at times and used it for selfish purposes in public forums. Like children that did not understand it purpose and power. Yes they used it in private prayer which was not to be condemned.

(1Co 14:2) For he that speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God. For no one understands, but in the Spirit he speaks mysteries.
(1Co 14:4) He that speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he that prophesises edifies the church.
(1Co 14:6) But now, brothers, if I came to you speaking with tongues, without speaking to you either by way of revelation, or of knowledge, or of prophesying, or of teaching- what shall I profit you? (NEV)

Now if verse 2 is not understood correctly it will skew the entire chapter and folks will get your type of meaning, which is incorrect and very damaging.

First, Verse 2 is not saying that if you speak in ‘babble,’ then this is great and is deliberately a mystery language not meant to be in a coherent foreign language form. And it is only to be used as a private language to God for one’s own edification and to be used in public also. That is a modern false view where a few modern denominations have made it their cornerstone scripture and interpretation....

So, Paul was denouncing the improper use of this gift that does not edify anyone, in Verse 2 and other parts in this scripture. They were abusing this gift. This was one of Paul’s major points he was presenting to the congregation in Corinth. The gift of speaking or interpreting in/from another language was to be performed in public for the edification of the assembly – to a mixture of foreigners from many shores.

For the sake of brevity let me go further down to Verses 27 and 28. These reinforce what Paul was saying in Verse 2, Verse 4, Verse 6

(1Co 14:27) If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be by two, or at the most three; and even then in turn, and let one interpret.
(1Co 14:28) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church, and let him speak to himself and to God.

Therefore, the gift of a tongue was not understood by Paul and scripture to be a mysterious and of an ecstatic utterance or nature where some would communicate to God.

It was a gift of foreign comprehensible languages that was accessible to the public with an interpreter or, of private use only used in prayers to God.

Now is this gift of the tongues prevalent today as I said. My answer still is no. I do not even think the so-called gifts of tongues today are the same as in Paul’s days.


Oz, I never said the TRUE gift of tongues was false as you stated I said. I’m suggesting that the TRUE gift of tongues are not prevalent today and that some folks they believe they have a gift, is not a gift from God at all.

To answer your question, no I never overlooked I Corinth Chapter 14 as you can read. You just made me spell it out, a place I really did not want to go - get folks upset.


Bless you,


APAK

APAK,

Please convince me from 1 Cor 14 that the gift of tongues is the 'legitimate gift of foreign languages' and 'it was a gift of foreign comprehensible languages' (your wording).

I find it blasphemous that you describe the gift of tongues today as speaking in 'babble'.

See: Gift of tongues is gibberish?

Paul is saying in Verse 2 that it is wrong to speak in a foreign legitimate language or a slang or abbreviated version of it. Paul and no one else with the gift of a foreign language (tongue(s)) would ever recognize the ‘babble’ talk of some today. He would denounce it worse that what the Corinth were doing with their legitimate gift of foreign languages. The so-called gift of tongues today has no resemblance to the legitimate gift of tongues given in the days of Pentecost and several decades later.

Paul further goes on to say that only God would understand someone using this gift from the spirit and not anyone in ear-shot. It would be like a mystery language indeed to everyone else except God and it would be a selfish act that would only edify the speaker.

Again, Paul and scripture never even suggested or thought of a nonsensical or ‘babble’ talk as a gift for God. Paul always meant a coherent and foreign language that I guess can be called ‘babble’ is no one can understand it.

That is your opinion. They are your assertions. You provided not one piece of exegesis to prove your case.

Paul affirmed he wanted all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy (14:5 ESV).

Paul contradicted your view that tongues refers to the 'legitimate gift of foreign languages'. Instead Paul's teaching was:

(1) If he prayed in a tongue, his spirit prayed and his mind was unfruitful (14:15), and

(2) the one who speaks in tongues 'utters mysteries in the Spirit' (14:2).

How can the person with God's gift of tongues utter 'mysteries' and yet speak 'foreign comprehensible languages' (your view)? That's an oxymoron.

Yes, there was definitely disorder in the Corinthian church in regard to the gifts of the Spirit (1 Cor 14:26-40) and Paul's instruction was that 'all things should be done decently and in order' (1 Cor 14:40 ESV). His instructions to churches today would be exactly the same today. He does not instruct to close down the use of tongues as 'mysteries' but he calls for proper order in the midst of Corinthian disorder.

You seem to be importing your own understanding of tongues being 'foreign comprehensible languages' when the exegesis of 1 Cor 14 teaches something very different.

I also am appalled with the disorder I see in some Pentecostal-charismatic churches, but when I find a couple rotten tomatoes in a bag, it doesn't stop me from eating tomatoes. So Paul could say, in spite of the Corinthian disorder, 'I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you' (14:18) - tongues that are 'mysteries' in his spirit.

Notice that Paul does not say that tongues need to be translated, but interpreted. I read and have taught NT Greek. The Greek would use a different word to 'interpreted' if 'translated' was the requirement.

There is no need to do a 'short commentary' for me when I read the Greek NT and am able to exegete the grammar and syntax of that language as well as the etymology of the words.

Oz

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Another tongue that is never considered. The Book of Revelation is in an unknown tongue. The Revelation of Jesus Christ given to the servants. “He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”

Deuteronomy 29:4
[4] Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

"but the time comes when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father."

The book of proverbs is wisdom. "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." Wisdom is a language, a language of Spirit. Song of Solomon: To some ears is perverted. To other ears it is clear and pure and without corruption. The Son of God spoke Spirit fluently. An incorruptible tongue. Without guile. Without perversion.

Why would Paul say: I speak in an unknown tongue more than you all. Because most of the time they couldn’t understand a word Paul said. They were not listening, instead they were focused on defending what profited them. If we speak and our mind is unfruitful then We edify self only. Do we need an interpreter to explain the book of Revelation. Absolutely. Do we need an interpreter to explain The book of proverbs. Absoluely. Do we need one to teach a new language that does profit the mind(the mind of Christ) (be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind), do we need an interpreter to edify the body??? Absolutely. The Spirit (Christ) if he be there does the interpretation as “teacher” given to profit the entire body. Not edifying of just self.

Job 33:23-28
[23] If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: [24] Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom. [25] His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth: [26] He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with for he will render unto man his righteousness. [27] He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not; [28] He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

James 3:17
[17] But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

James 1:27
[27] Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.


Zephaniah 3:9
[9] For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord , to serve him with one consent.

 

[faithfulness]

Another tongue that is never considered. The Book of Revelation is in an unknown tongue. The Revelation of Jesus Christ given to the servants. “He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”

Deuteronomy 29:4
[4] Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

"but the time comes when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father."

The book of proverbs is wisdom. "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." Wisdom is a language, a language of Spirit. Song of Solomon: To some ears is perverted. To other ears it is clear and pure and without corruption. The Son of God spoke Spirit fluently. An incorruptible tongue. Without guile. Without perversion.

Why would Paul say: I speak in an unknown tongue more than you all. Because most of the time they couldn’t understand a word Paul said. They were not listening, instead they were focused on defending what profited them. If we speak and our mind is unfruitful then We edify self only. Do we need an interpreter to explain the book of Revelation. Absolutely. Do we need an interpreter to explain The book of proverbs. Absoluely. Do we need one to teach a new language that does profit the mind(the mind of Christ) (be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind), do we need an interpreter to edify the body??? Absolutely. The Spirit (Christ) if he be there does the interpretation as “teacher” given to profit the entire body. Not edifying of just self.

Job 33:23-28
[23] If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: [24] Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom. [25] His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth: [26] He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with for he will render unto man his righteousness. [27] He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not; [28] He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.

All glory to Him, but this entire post is beyond words to describe the blessing to me.

The Son of God spoke Spirit fluently. An incorruptible tongue. Without guile. Without perversion.
The Spirit (Christ) if he be there does the interpretation as "teacher" given to profit the entire body. Not edifying of just self.

 

[marksman]

This is a poll...

What are your true beliefs regarding the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the spiritual gifts? Regarding some other aspects of being a Christian?

Rearding the baptism in the Holy Spirit....?

How do you rearding the baptism in the Holy Spirit?

 

[Willie T]

I see the word, "regarding." I can recognize 'typos', (that we all make), and read right on past them.

 

[Frank Lee]

Rearding the baptism in the Holy Spirit....?

How do you rearding the baptism in the Holy Spirit?

I'm not certain I understand your question.

 

[marksman]

I'm not certain I understand your question.

In your original post you talked about 'rearding the baptism of the Holy Spirit.' So I was asking how you reard the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

 

[Frank Lee]

I regard it as absolutely necessary.

 

[Willie T]

I'm not certain I understand your question.

He was trying to be cute by pointing out a typo.

 

[Frank Lee]

Well Willie I quit trying to be cute a lonnnngggg time ago.

 

[Willie T]

In his defense, although done a little wrong, I really do think he was only trying to be humorous.

Can we nip this one in the bud? Is that possible? (It's going to take all of us trying.)

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Who can figure out God's ways?
They're past finding out the prophet said.

The Lord spoke to me and said it's healed walk on it!
The pain was completely gone.
So many testimonies of how God healed and delivered and protected us over the years.
Literally saving our lives on different occasions.

Wow...thank you for those.
Praise God.

I do not find the ways of God hard to figure out at all, btw.
His works do not seem mysterious to me, either. LOL!
When we put our thinking caps on...nothing is really confusing about anything!

 

[Frank Lee]

There are only two types of tongues stated in the bible. Tongues of men and tongues of angels. Many tongues of men would most likely be unknown to all of us excepting for the easily identifiable ones such as Spanish, French, German and maybe one or two others.

I would say that all tongues of angels are completely unknown to all of us having never conversed with or even having heard an angel speak. Should God send an angel to speak to us He would surely speak in our language so that we could understand the message.

Harold Hill took a doubting associate to a prayer meeting. Those present were praying in the spirit - tongues that is - and with their understanding.

After a while Harold found his guest by himself crying. Upon asking what the matter was, the man said that he was a student of high German. An extinct language that not many know of. As he walked about the meeting he recognized that a person was speaking in this rare dead language. They were saying "who are you to scoff at my gifts"? God rebuked the man in a way that made him believe.

This story can be found in Harold's book How to live like a King's kid.

God will give you the interpretation to what you are praying in tongues if you ask Him. I have many pages of prophetic interpretation that came from the Holy Spirit as I sought God by prayer in an unknown (to me) tongue.