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Revelation 1 Brainstorm

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by HammerStone, Dec 28, 2006.

  1. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    This theme appears heavily in Revelation 1.Revelation 1:4John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;Revelation 1:8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.Revelation 1:11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.Revelation 1:17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:Revelation 1:19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;Interesting to me how there is such repetition of Jesus being those three things - is, was, and will be. There's an overall theme of the defiance of time in this chapter that delves down into things for me.We then have this:Revelation 1:10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,Very interesting here that John (his spirit) is pulled ahead to the Lord's Day here.I don't really know quite where I am going by posting this, but I just wanted to shoot this out there and see what opinions and ideas were on this heavy appearance of the concept.
     
  2. Pop James

    Pop James New Member

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    right Fox.......this is a marvelous study to consider "who is and who was and who is to come"...... there is certainly a blessing in this study.....what a comfort to know GODS eternal presence is not limited by time. HE is present and will be in the future."On the LORDS day"...as in many early writings this must refer to the LORDS day ...... the day of the LORDS resurrection...as opposed to the Day of the LORD ie: judgment........regards.Pop
     
  3. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    The Lord's day is pretty specific - I think this writing in II Timothy sums it up:2 Timothy 4:8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.The phrase the Day of Lord or Lord's Day was used often in both the Old and New Testaments and it refers specifically to a single day. As a rapture believer, this creates a huge problem for you guys but it cannot be explained away by making it the resurrection. Notice that the entire book of Revelation is prophecy. What is said in Revelation 1 corresponds closely with later events in Revelation and Jesus is described in a very clear light matching the description of him later in Revelation. There's just no mistaking it. John is being pulled ahead to the Lord's Day.Acts 2:20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:1 Corinthians 5:5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.2 Peter 3:10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.That last one really throws a curveball for rapture believers now doesn't it? The Lord is supposed to come get us but when he comes in that specific day everything melts away.
     
  4. servant_of_the_end

    servant_of_the_end New Member

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    SwampFox,I have always interpreted John being in the spirit on the Lords day as meaning Sunday. But what you suggest is that this 'Lords Day' is the day of the Lord. Very interesting and I will have to give this some thought since it is new to me. Ok I have now read the chapter again and will offer this. When John scribed this it was after the fact. Verses 1:1-8 cites experiences that he witnessed before writing what he heard and saw, and beginning at verse 9 John begins his narritive of those experiences. So I must conclude that the 'Lords day' that John references was a day in the week since he could not have been thrust forward to the Day of the Lord before the experience of which he writes began.
     
  5. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Servant,This is an area that we'll have to disagree on. Taking it back the the Greek, the same phrase here is the same one used in I Thessalonians 5:2 amongst other verses and this refers specifically to the Day of the Lord of which there is only one. I guess I answered my own original question with this post in that this reference is here, at least on one level, to show us that our time is indeed being manipulated here. It's functioning on the same power (that of YHVH's) that was exemplified when Paul said he knew a man (himself) who was caught up to the third heaven - II Corinthians 12:2. It's nothing for our Father to defy our time for his purposes and that's emphasized by the repetition of the concept posted originally.He's not saying this as he was caught up in a vision - notice that the word vision is not even used until the 9th chapter. John is seeing this as it happens on the one and only Lord's Day.
     
  6. KarenCharin0

    KarenCharin0 New Member

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    Ok I have now read the chapter again and will offer this. When John scribed this it was after the fact. Verses 1:1-8 cites experiences that he witnessed before writing what he heard and saw, and beginning at verse 9 John begins his narritive of those experiences. So I must conclude that the 'Lords day' that John references was a day in the week since he could not have been thrust forward to the Day of the Lord before the experience of which he writes began.
    I don't understand your resoning here....Are you saying that John couldn't of gone into the future to the Lord's day ? Revelations is about things that still haven't happened so if he wasn't in the future seeing these things then how could he write about them ? He even makes a second reference to the fact in ch.4. when he's done addressing the 7 churches.Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter. Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. A flesh and blood body can't be in heaven in the future, but his spirit can be and was. Here in this verse he tells us again what day it is that he is witnessing. He doesn't say on the first day of the week, he says the great day of His wrath. Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Here again he describes judgement day.....Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.John is describing what he is seeing from the first chapter on, he is seeing the day of the Lord ...... not a day of the week...... I don't understand how you see it as a day of the week.......
     
  7. snaggs

    snaggs New Member

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    Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafterIn rev 1:9 john is writing about his relevent present...on the isle...and in the spirit...on the Lords day...only upon his calling up to god is he shown things witch MUST be hereafter...that is how I read ..
     
  8. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    REVELATIONOF SAINT JOHN THE DIVINE BY JESUS CHRIST Chapter 1"Introduction."Many churches stay clear of the Book of Revelation, on a verse by verse study, because they teach; "Your going to be gone anyway at that time". They also say; "It's not to be understood yet". This is odd because the very word "Revelation" means to "to reveal" or "unveil" something. When you unveil anything, you make it known.The book of Revelation is a sister book to the book of Daniel in the Old Testament. Both of these books were written to the people who live in the final generation, of the "latter days". Daniel was told to, "shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end:" [Daniel 12:4]. He was told by God; "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand: but the wise shall understand." [Daniel 12:10]The wise are those who study God's word, line upon line, chapter upon chapter, and all these words are wisdom from God. This is why the wise should understand. As we study Revelation, let us take a fresh look at the book, and allow God's Word to speak through us. Let's permit the Holy Spirit to allow His words to speak to our hearts which is our minds with understanding. This chapter covers a time period that most people living on the face of the earth today will live through, and the wise Christian should understand these teachings.So, be very cautious of any group that would tell you not to study, or to throw away part of God's word. Those are words Satan would use. Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"This is not the Revelation of John, but a Revelation of Jesus Christ. "Jesus" means "God's Savior", and "Christ" means the "Anointed One [Messiah]". Jesus the Christ is the person that this Revelation is by. Jesus showed the Revelation to John, and told Jesus told John to write it down. This Revelation is directed to, and revealed to God's servant's, and those servants are living in every corner of the earth in the "time of the end".Jesus told John to write this so that you and I, living and witnessing events in these latter days, will have the wisdom to understand everything that happens is all part of God's plan, and to see where each of us fit into that plan.The word "shortly" is explained in verse ten, and we can better understand it when we study it there. This verse then, tells us it was Jesus Christ that is the Revelator; while John did the writing. The purpose here is to show Christians of our generation the things that will occur at the end of this earth age. It was sent, and signified, or guaranteed by Jesus Christ Himself. The willingness of a person to search for the wisdom of Revelation separates the man of God, from the puff of smoke found in many churches today. When the Antichrist does appear as the savior of the world, the lazy Christian will follow him, thinking that the Antichrist is Jesus Christ.Revelation 1:2 "Who bare record [witness] of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw."John bore witness of this record given by Jesus, God's anointed Messiah. The record of Revelation reveals more then John had seen, but in the Greek, it mean "to both see and to hear with understanding". Now let's let the Word speak for Himself.Revelation 1:3 "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.""Blessed" means "happy", and you will be very happy when you read, and come to understand the full knowledge of all of the events coming to pass in these end times. It gives us security, and peace of mind to know exactly what will take place, and how God will use us, and protect His elect. This is Jesus Christ's own words, or commitment to you and I, as we live in this godless one world system, that is tightening it's grip on the nations of the world today. Read God's Word with understanding, for it is what Jesus is telling us, then do those things that He has put into writing in His Word, the Bible.Revelation 1:4 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be to you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before His throne"This "grace", or "unmerited favor", is extended to all the churches, and comes from Jesus Christ. "He is" today, and He lives as our Savior, "He was" when he walked the earth in the flesh, and died on the cross of Calvary; "He is yet to come"; when He shall return at the sound of the seventh trumpet, which is the Second Advent.The "seven Spirits" also refer to Jesus Christ. For "Seven" shows completeness, and Christ is all the spirits of the Throne joined into one. The "seven churches" of Asia are formed into a circle geographically, and these churches are symbolizing of all the churches around the globe today. They are symbolic of all the forms of church doctrine represented in the Christian world today. God is not the God of the Middle East, but of the universe; of all the world.Revelation 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed [loosed] us from our sins in his own blood,"We see here other titles of Jesus Christ, so it cannot be misunderstood who it is revealing this to us, and sending His blessing to us. His title, "Prince of the kings of the earth", is in reference to Christ being the "Prince of the King's of the Gentile nations", recorded in chapter 21; and "King of Kings" in Revelation 19:16. Race has nothing to do with this, for it is dealing with the "elect" of God, and the overcomers of this earth age.The word "washed" is better translated, "freed"; for Jesus Christ freed us from our sins. There can be no mistake in identifying Jesus Christ by this description. When Jesus Christ shed His blood, He became "the first begotten of the dead." He defeated death and the devil. That was Jesus Christ's sole mission for coming to earth; being born of a woman; living in the flesh body; and then dying on the cross and shedding His blood. Our Lord Jesus Christ conquered death, and Satan the devil, [Hebrews 2:14]. Satan's name is Death.Hebrews 2:14 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil."Revelation 1:6 " And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father; to Him be glory, and dominion for ever and ever. A-men."The "priests" are the "elect", while the "kings" are the "ethnos", the saved Gentile people of this earth age. They are not the chosen, but the "overcomers". They read and heard God's word, then they believed and repented, and "overcame" the devil in this earth age. Jesus Christ is the King for ever and ever, and all the glory is His. The sooner we understand this fully, the easier Revelation will be to understand. Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of [mourn over] Him. Even so, A-men."This event is the second advent taking place here, when Jesus Christ will return "with clouds", or "with the masses" of His saints. This is not, and has nothing to do with flying away, as many Christian churches teach today. "They that pierced Him," is referring to all the "Kenites" those Jewish religious leaders, the ones that killed Jesus by delivering Him up to Pilot. Every person on this earth will see Jesus Christ upon His second coming. Some will "wail" in joy, for they kept His Word, and did not yield to Satan, the Antichrist. However, most will "wail" in sorrow and shame for they were taken by the wrong Christ in the wrong marriage. They followed after the Antichrist who came first and appeared as they were taught through their churches traditions, called the "rapture doctrine". Whether you stand or fall in this final generation, it will be according to whether you had prepared yourself to stand against Satan in this final generation. If you have, you will stand; and if you did not, then you will be deceived by Antichrist. When Satan arrives, you will not resist him by accident, nor can you prepare in that late hour. The understanding of this Revelation of Jesus Christ must occur before the sounding of that fifth trumpet of Revelation 9:1. It is stated in this book of Revelation that the Antichrist shall come before the second advent, which is at the sounding of the seventh trumpet.Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.:Jesus Christ is everything, in all ages [earth ages] to all sons [no gender applied here] of the living God.Revelation 1:9 "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the Kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Pat'-mos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ."Most teachers of the Bible believe that John was exiled to the isle of Pat'-mos, for his faith in Jesus Christ. "Pat'-mos" is an island called "Patino" in the Aegean Sea.The word "was", in the Greek manuscripts is "came to be". The word "for" as used in the Greek is used in the "Accusative", and it has the sense of "on account of", or "because of". This would leave nothing to indicate that John had been banished there to the isle of Pat'-mos."...companion [partaker] in tribulation, and in the Kingdom..."; should read, "...in the tribulation, and in this Kingdom." John was there and partook in "the tribulation" that our generation is about to witness also. He was taken to our generation in the spirit, and those things and events that he saw, he wrote about. John also visited in the spirit, "the Kingdom" of God in the Heavens; both in this age and the next to come. The next earth age to come is the "kingdom of Jesus Christ", which is established at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. It is called the "Millennium kingdom" and continues for the next thousand years. Then after the Christ's Millennium kingdom, God's Kingdom goes on eternally here on earth, following the "Judgment seat of God [The Great White Throne].All of these events are going to be revealed within this study of the book of Revelation, and when you read and study this book with understanding you will not be deceived when they take place before your eyes. There are many negative things that are going on right today, and they must happen, just as Jesus death on the cross happened, because they are all part of the glorious plan of God.Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"This verse is the key to understanding the book of Revelation. Without a clear and full understanding of it, the entire book just will not make sense. The sequence of order will seem strange. "I"; this is John speaking and telling us where he was. "I was in the Spirit", not in his flesh body; "on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet". John is taken forward in time, "in the Spirit", to the day of the Lord. The "Day of the Lord" is not referring to Sunday or Saturday. This is the same "Day of the Lord" Paul speaks about in I Thessalonians 5:2, as "coming as a thief in the night". Later in II Thessalonians 2:2-3 Paul makes it clear that at the "Day of the Lord" Christ's return will not happen until "after there will be a great falling away first; and "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". Satan must be revealed in his role as the Antichrist first, before that seventh trumpet can sound, the last trumpet.The time, or day, John was taken to was beyond our time frame, however we are living in the generation that will see it come to pass, and live through what John saw and lived, while in the Spirit. There is only one day that is called "The Day of the Lord" in all the Scriptures.Isaiah 2:12 "For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low."This is the day that our Lord returns. This is the day "God's cup of wrath" is poured out upon His enemies. So John was taken in the Spirit to the last day of this earth age, before the start of the age of the Millennium. If you are still in your flesh body, that day hasn't happened yet, and it is still future to us.Every verse that you read in Revelation from this verse to the end of chapter twenty two, will be viewed from the Lord's day, either looking backwards or forwards a short period of time. If you don't come to that point of time in your understanding with John, the rest of what he is saying just will not make sense.Revelation 1:11 "Saying, I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesis, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."This is Jesus talking to John, and asking him to look around on this Lord's day, and write what you see, and then send it to the seven churches of Asia. These seven churches represent all of the types of churches that exist on the earth in these last days. Which of these churches represent your church? Can you identify the type of church by the teaching in that church. Jesus said, I want you, John, to show each of those churches exactly what is going to happen at the end of this earth age, and what I think of each of them. The next two chapters will give us the details of the doctrine of each of these churches. Revelation 1:12 "And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;"Wow, that sounds deep. Well, let's break it down so we can understand what it is saying.We use objects all the time to teach our children lessons. That is all that is happening here. These candlesticks are symbolic of something.Revelation 1:13 "And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.The one standing or the focus of attention in these seven candlesticks looked like the "Son of man" [Christ], because it was Jesus Christ.Revelation 1:14 "His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire." Why was Christ's eyes "as a flame of fire"? Because of God's magnificent splendor and glory that is shown through His eyes. So we see Christ is standing among the seven candlesticks; However, the candlesticks stand for something else.Revelation 1:15 "And his feet like unto fine [burnished] brass, as if they burned [as if it had been refined] in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.""Waters" in the Greek text are peoples. When Christ talked, it gave the sound of many people speaking. [see Revelation 17:15 for documentation.]Revelation 1:16 "And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength."The "stars" are symbolic of angels, they are guiding angels for John, as he makes his trip into his future; all the way to the "day of the Lord". The "seven" represents completeness, and there is one angel for each of the churches.The "two-edged sword" is what Jesus will return with, as He returns as a man of war at the seventh trumpet. "I come not to bring peace, but a sword;" Jesus said in Matthew 10:34. Those that are against Christ shall be cut deep, but they shall heal if they repent. We will all be in the spiritual body, on the Lords day, when He has returned to earth here. For as we saw in [I Corinthians 15:51]; "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed." To "sleep" is better translated "die". While our changing is to be into our spiritual bodies, from the physical bodies of the flesh we are now in. Then in [I Corinthians 15:52], "In a moment, in the twinkling [wink] of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible [never decaying], and we shall be changed." This change to our spiritual body is for every living soul living in a flesh body. It shall take place on the very day that John is brought forward to, on this "day of the Lord".This is why the Sword is given with words from Christ and not with physical armor. Christ's sword will make all things right, and the glory around our Lord will cause all to bow and praise His holy name.Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:"The Lord Jesus Christ put His hand upon John, and He comforted John as Jesus reminded him who He was. Just as when Jesus walked and talked with the disciples as a man. John had peace within his soul being with our Lord again.Revelation 1:18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, A'-men; and have the keys of hell and of death [death and Hades]."They, the "Kenites", crucify Christ, and it was for our redemption, and within God's plan that it happened exactly as it was prophesied. The price was paid once only, and that is sufficient for all sinners that will believe and repent. When Christ arose from the dead, He then, and now lives forevermore. The "keys of hell and of death", means you have the authority, and ability to control what ever is on the other side of the locked door of this physical life. It means that what you do with those keys is entirely up to you. Jesus Christ holds the keys which will allow you to escape out of Hell, and the death of your soul. That is why our prayers offered to the Father are given "in Jesus Name", for "Jesus Name" identifies you as under the shed blood of Jesus Christ. It is your credentials before the throne of God. Revelation 1:19 "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;"Jesus told John to write down the things that he has seen; about those candlesticks, and the stars; "and that I have shown you Myself with the sword", now write it all down. John is to record the things Jesus is going to show, both before, and after "the day of the Lord". [remember from back in verse 1:10, that is where John is.] We will even be on that day physically very shortly.Revelation 1:20 "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."How simple could it be; Jesus has explained that the "seven stars" are "the seven angels of the seven churches"; While the "candlestick are the seven churches". A candlestick holds a candle giving off light. The church is on a mission to hold up the light of God's Word. The "right hand" is the hand of power and might and it shows where the work is done. So, the vision John saw taking place on the "day of the Lord"; is Jesus Christ standing in the middle of this circle of seven churches, not candlesticks, for the candlesticks are symbols for the churches. There was an angel of God standing over each church. In Christ's mouth is the sword within those churches, and the sword is the words of authority that Jesus has over Satan, and all the ungodly. While that sword is in His hands of a Christian, we hold the keys over death and Hell.Why make this chapter so hard? It's a writing that as we continue our study, will reveal the future that you and I, and most all people now living in our generation will witness in person, and in our flesh bodies. This chapter is very comforting to each of us, as we read and study it with understanding. Bible Study by Roger Christopherson
     
  9. servant_of_the_end

    servant_of_the_end New Member

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    (KarenCharin0;5697)
    I don't understand your resoning here....Are you saying that John couldn't of gone into the future to the Lord's day ? Revelations is about things that still haven't happened so if he wasn't in the future seeing these things then how could he write about them ? ...John is describing what he is seeing from the first chapter on, he is seeing the day of the Lord ...... not a day of the week...... I don't understand how you see it as a day of the week.......
    No, I am not suggesting such a thing of our God with whom all things are possible; but let me say this.If you read my post I advance what John wrote from vs' 1-8 was of things he had been shown, and then starting with vs 9 he begins a narrative of what he saw. For instance...I saw a car crash and two people died, and I have witnessed this event. ( I scribe this in 8 verses)This is what happened prior and up to what I have just said ( start narrative at vs 9)Read the rev 1:1-9 in this manner and you can understand my position.
     
  10. servant_of_the_end

    servant_of_the_end New Member

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    (SwampFox;5694)
    Servant,This is an area that we'll have to disagree on. Taking it back the the Greek, the same phrase here is the same one used in I Thessalonians 5:2 amongst other verses and this refers specifically to the Day of the Lord of which there is only one. I guess I answered my own original question with this post in that this reference is here, at least on one level, to show us that our time is indeed being manipulated here. It's functioning on the same power (that of YHVH's) that was exemplified when Paul said he knew a man (himself) who was caught up to the third heaven - II Corinthians 12:2. It's nothing for our Father to defy our time for his purposes and that's emphasized by the repetition of the concept posted originally.He's not saying this as he was caught up in a vision - notice that the word vision is not even used until the 9th chapter. John is seeing this as it happens on the one and only Lord's Day.
    I gracefully accept your disagreement( and it is refreshing that we can do such a thing without harsh words or implications of malfeasance)Let me submit this- If John was thrust forward to the day of the Lord, then it follows that at this place in time he was granted a vision of what had already occured, yet he says these are the things that must come to pass. John would have been in a place to say things things had come to pass already from the perspective of the time in which he resided when he began to talk of such things. The language doesn't follow that he scribed in the past tense being in a place where all things were in the past. Yet he writes he was shown these things for the benefit of the servants to know what must come to pass. It doesn't follow that being in the future on the day of the Lord, he would need to acknowledge that in verse 9 he should narrate of things in the past. What you suggest seems at best a non-issue and a needless understanding of scripture that serves no purpose for those things that are neccesary for understanding what is to occur, in regards to the things John wrote.What is to be gained from a revelation that John was indeed transfigured to the day of the Lord, and does it change our perspective as to what we should expect? I know this was a thread for brainstorming opinion and most likely has no bearing as to our given tasks, but if you see some import that is imperitive to us doing what is right, then I anticipate this knowledge most willingly.
     
  11. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Keep in mind that John was being given this to be passed on to us as an audience. These things therefore would not have passed for us and are yet to happen for us as the audience and intended readers of the blessed book of Revelation. John is just relaying the message, in effect. If he had used present tense, the book of Revelation would have been that much cloudier. Bare in mind also, the overall theme of the passage that time is meaningless to Our Father.I agree that anyone who reads this thread should realize what we're disagreeing on has no real bearing one way or another on things. It's something that fascinates me and it will all come to pass regardless of where John was. It serves to explain some things for me personally but nothing more at the moment.
     
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