Revival is the Baptism By fire
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This is circular . . .
you need it because you deny it because you need it because you deny it . . .
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
No. Pentecost was not subjective. One "receiving the Spirit" without any supernatural evidence is subjective. Heavy outpourings were and always will be accompanied objective realities. They visibly saw tongues of fire. They saw visible manifestations in people speaking in tongues and prophesying.
THEY, not us. That verse was applied to someone in Hell, i.e. the unbelieving.
I don't advocate for requiring anything. I advocate that true Christianity in its original form was accompanied by supernatural confirmations of the gospel, and any attempt to rewrite our faith into a religion that "has a form of godliness but denies the power thereof" is falling into the hands of Satan, and turning Christianity into a powerless religion that Satan and his servants will pray upon at will, because I can assure you they move in the supernatural, and not for the betterment of man but for their enslavement.
What all this is showing is the proof we are living in the Laodicean age... Laodicean doctrine and textualism does this...
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Greetings Cassandra, and welcome to the forum.
The fact that false Christs and false prophets will emerge in the end-times is no justification in my opinion for throwing out all supernatural manifestations as being "of the Devil." As stated in the previous post, if we resign ourselves that only Satan's servants will operate in supernatural power, Christianity will be a conquered religion in fairly short order.
God bless, and welcome again.
Hidden In Him
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No, you are being circular. And posting large memes doesn't change that. Go back to what you wrote, and that's what it is.
Much love!
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Exactly, and that's why I argue these threads. Contentment with things as they are now disheartens me. The Lord turned the world upside down in NT times, not because they taught some philosophy, but because His word was being confirmed with signs and wonders following, and the world was finding out in numerous ways who the REAL God was, and "turning from lifeless idols to serve the True and Living God" (1 Thessalonians).
Anyone who thinks only the enemy should do so today are resigning the world over to the Devil, whether they realize it or not. Granted, fasting and praying intensely for outpourings and visitations of the Holy Spirit is no easy matter; it is rightly labelled "Travailing in the Spirit," or "agonizing" in prayer, as Paul described it. But simply giving up is not an acceptable option for me. I will fight for the truth and do what I can to prove it out. I have no interest in simply acquiescing because it is a more comfortable way to live.
I think you discredit. or maybe a better word is to discount God's work in the believer.
Miracles aside, which I've seen and experienced, by the way . . . Something very key in my KNOWING that God is real, that I'm His, and that He loves me, is what He's done internally in me.
Maybe some discount that, but I'm more convinced of God's love by my internal changes than I am by the external miracles. Only someone who loves me would do what He's done for me.
The one's remaining behind on earth. The rich man was imploring with Abraham to send someone back to tell his brothers.
Luke 16:27-31 KJV
27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29) Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30) And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31) And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Well then that should be avoided I would think!
Much love!
Is the message here that if someone doesn't hold to Latter Rain theology that this means they are complacent, content, and not interested in growth?
There . . . that's the heart of it. Right there. And there are many ways God uses for that to happen.
Much love!
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
I don't discount. My simple contention is that true Christianity allows itself to be robbed when the focus turns only the inner work of renewing the mind. Cults renew the mind. Philosophies renew the mind. The TV renews the minds of many today to accept homosexuality, promiscuity, witchcraft, atheism, agnosticism, Gnosticism... Renewing the mind in Christ is great, but it is not primarily a religion of the mind. It is a religion founded upon the power of God.
Duh, LoL. You sometimes take me as not as bright as I am, Mark. I was aware of it, and it was implied in my response.
Not offended, just saying. I do believe I was aware of that when I posted it, LoL.
Something we agree upon : )
I don't see the renewing of the mind by God as anything at all like these other things. I see the renewing of the mind by God to be unlike anything else at all in this world.
For me, the renewing of the mind is learning to walk in the power of God, as a new creation, instead of thinking we lack power, as we once did as the old creation.
That we are so used to being who we were in our Adamic creation, that even though we are born again now righteous and holy and imbued with power to live holy and fruitful lives - in all respects - we are so used to the old way, God has to retrain our minds so that we will become used to living in the new way, according to who and what we are now, and not who and what we were then.
This idea that we have a "resource lack" is what I take issue with. God gives us power, we have to learn to use it.
Much love!
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There's no need to think that way. That's not in my mind at all. I actually happen to think you're a smart fellow.
You said this applied to the dead, I was showing a response from Scripture is all. No personal assessments intended.
:)
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I keep thinking about this assertion:
The only reason we don't have revival is because we are willing to live without it.
Because on the face it sounds all spiritual, right?
We don't even will to live or die.
Isn't this saying man is in the driver's seat? Or that God is always wanting to send revival to man who is frustrating Him? God is unable to work His purpose in His children?
Be it to you according to your faith. God gives, and we receive. And yes, you have not because you ask not. But do you think you have to force God's hand? Reach some emotional frenzy? The fulfilling self-affirmation of human accomplishment?
I don't think that way. He gives the Spirit freely to those who ask. A good Father!
This kind of thinking is to me like some controversy between God and His children, and I suggest that's the wrong way to think of our relationship with God, if we are born again. A loving and nurturing relationship between the Perfect Father and His children.
Much love!
The only reason we don't have revival is because we are willing to live without it.
Because on the face it sounds all spiritual, right?
We don't even will to live or die.
Isn't this saying man is in the driver's seat? Or that God is always wanting to send revival to man who is frustrating Him? God is unable to work His purpose in His children?
Be it to you according to your faith. God gives, and we receive. And yes, you have not because you ask not. But do you think you have to force God's hand? Reach some emotional frenzy? The fulfilling self-affirmation of human accomplishment?
I don't think that way. He gives the Spirit freely to those who ask. A good Father!
This kind of thinking is to me like some controversy between God and His children, and I suggest that's the wrong way to think of our relationship with God, if we are born again. A loving and nurturing relationship between the Perfect Father and His children.
Much love!
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Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
No.
We should go by the way the text reads they did, however.
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance... 8 From you the word of the Lord has sounded forth... and they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. (1 Thessalonians 1:5-10)
The supernatural is all over this passage, Mark. The Lord confirmed that Jesus was the Son of God by raising Him from the dead, and then poured out the same Spirit on the apostles and the early church, such that they presented the gospel with works of power like healings, exorcisms, prophecy, etc., to provide assurances that it was not something merely made up in the minds of men.
LoL. I consider myself middle of the road.
Kinda like Goldilock's porridge; not too hot, not too cold. But oh, so delicious!
Well, now yes.
Well, now no.
Well, now yes again, Lol. I believe the Lord would have the church in a FAR better state than she is now, don't you? I think our deplorable spiritual state right now is the result of us not pursuing Him with our whole hearts. David brought up the Laodicean church, and it is a fitting example. I don't think the Lord wanted some churches to do really well and others do badly. I think those decisions were left up to each individual congregation. Same goes for the gifts of God. Paul said, "desire the greater gifts, and rather that you may prophesy," and "pray that he may interpret." This means the onus is on us, just like the onus is on us whether we will fully give ourselves to God or not, yes?
Emotional frenzy?! Lol. Me still thinks you still have a rather bad impression of Pentecostalism. No, no one is forcing His hand. But what happens is, as our passage for this thread states, "To whom much is given, much will be required," and that is why the Lord puts a certain price tag on the gifts. He doesn't just dole them out willy nilly because there is a responsibility involved. They will be expected to handle the increased influence they have properly. This is why, in my experience and what I've seen of others I've known, the gifts generally only come to those who pay the price for them in prayer. Think of it as a kid wanting a car. His father knows better than to give it to him unless he has proven he can be responsible. Otherwise he may bring harm to his son, and possible damage to others. Same with the gifts. They carry responsibility. The last thing the world needs is another minister putting his hand out and saying, "Thus saith the Lord, PAY ME," and that's what we'd have a whole lot more of if the Lord gave most superficial believers today anything resembling serious spiritual power and influence.
It's not forcing His hand. It's more like convincing Him that it's ok to open it up, lest He fear us going out there and proverbially killing ourselves or others spiritually.
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Comments like this tell me how far apart we are in our thinking.
And this.
I see it more like, He knows where we're at in our lives, He's always working to bring us to more. The more we cooperate, the better we'll do, but He doesn't stop.
I really truly do not believe I need to convince God of anything at all ever. He knows me, knows my weakness, He knows what's right for me and when.
Much love!
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Speaking strictly for yourself I'm certain!
;)
"The Church is a Failure" does not wash with me. That's what some do, they post thread after thread telling about how miserable all the Christians are. Again, this doesn't really go along with how I think of things.
Jesus causes us to triumph, or don't you believe that? God intends for our complete sanctification, can He do that? He is faithful, and He will. That's what I believe, and I'm watching Him do it.
Much love!
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Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Ok. I'm good with that. :)
I agree, and if he knows you or anyone else is too weak to handle the temptations that are going to come their way from the enemy, He won't bring them to ruin irresponsibly will He? Surely if human father's watch out for their children in this way, would not God even more so? I don't see why you find it such a hard concept to agree with. Paul said to the Thessalonians:
When I could stand it no longer, I sent to find out about your faith, for I was afraid that in some way the tempter had tempted you, and our labors might have been in vain. (1 Thessalonians 3:5)
He had Mark flee the battlefield on him, and thus was not interested in Barnabas asking to have the man serve with them again, knowing the guy couldn't handle it. Some people are not ready. Heck, Peter wasn't even ready before the crucifixion, which the Lord warned him about, telling him "before the cock crows, you will betray me three times..." We are children spiritually, and the "meat of the word" is about being rewarded for enduring persecution and affliction. Most spiritual babes are ready to hear about that sort of thing yet, let alone resist unto blood.
As a church? Not right now He isn't, LoL. This is the kind of statement that tells me how far apart we are in our thinking. The church is being slowly dismembered right now. There is so much division in the body of Christ that I don't see us triumphing over anything. Are there victories here and there in some areas? Certainly. And there are certainly victories on a personal level for many Christians. But the church as a whole? Sorry. If you call this victory, we have an entirely different idea of what victory means. I see a church taking it on the chin left and right. One need look no father than what goes on on the forums, or the condition of many churches these days, and the tremendously sub-standard preaching that goes forth from many pulpits, or the sin that is so rampant, or the greed that still marks much of modern-day Christianity...
I don't bad mouth the church simply because I like to criticize. I try to support the church, and anyone who names the name of Christ, regardless of denomination. But my eyes see failure and compromise far more often than victory. Maybe our expectations are entirely different? As I was telling someone on another forum, I don't measure us my modern Christianity. I measure us by New Testament Christianity, and I don't think we're doing better. I think we are doing worse, far worse, when in fact we need to be doing better. But I believe we will eventually, though again, it will not be as a result of low expectations but higher ones.
When I say church, I mean the body of born again children of God, not including those who are not reborn. The kinds of attitudes and behaviors I see on forums I don't find very representative of the Christians I know IRL.
Much love!
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But I've prayed for you, and when you are converted, help the others, Jesus told Him. Peter had this wrong idea about himself, but Jesus didn't get it wrong, and knew exactly what Peter was going to do, and what God Himself would do for Peter to restore his confidence in Jesus.
Are we able to have confidence in Jesus even when we don't in ourselves? This is the best place to be, imo. All confidence in the Spirit, and none in the flesh. But fully confident in the Spirit.
Much love!
