Revival is the Baptism By fire

[marks]

I said the verse, Mark, not the passage, LoL. We disagree. Let it go.

No worries! I like to give these things some thought, I find the forum great for that.

In this case, I was exploring the context more, and parallel passages, and posting what I see. I know we disagree, and I think you may be right, that it's more personal matters that point us differently. But I don't think it's about being "charismatic" or not. That just turns into a distraction.

Like what, I don't think God works through His Spirit, in all sorts of ways, and with power? Yeah, other people throw that at me, but it's got nothing to do with this. Just because I don't broadcast my stories, well, I'm not into self-display.

Whenever you want to drop out, feel free!

But meanwhile, I've come to be very interested in continuing to explore this topic, about the "fires of God", and about "How He empowers us and purifies us". I think that sometimes two different ideas in the Bible become improperly blended together, which I feel can fail to do justice to either.

Fiery and fire are compared to our Christian experience, and I've become interested in looking through those passages. I just don't happen to think that this baptism by fire is a second baptism Christians receive, or not. I don't see that in the Bible, I see the most tenuous offerings of evidence from those who do. I've gotten interested in exploring this again.

You don't need to feel you have to respond to my posts, like I've said, this is firstly a good way for me to think things through.

I don't suppose that line of questioning will get a positive reaction, and at this point I sometimes get remarks about how "arrogant" or "prideful" I am to say such a thing (not that it's the end of the world. I've gotten used to it).

And why assume a negative reaction? I'm doing the same . . . following the conversation out. This doesn't have to become personal, or about some critique of views not being discussed.

The fire of God needs to be welcomed and sought after by the church through prayer and fasting, not explained away through interpretations that obscure its importance.

This is primarily for effect:

I think that we need to have a correct understanding of what God does, and participate in it, and not expain away the true Christian practice in favor of our love of drama and pageantry.

What I'm saying is we can make those sorts of comments either way, but why bother?

So I get it . . . you feel I'm trying to "explain away" something you feel important, and I don't understand. That's your opinion of my goal, OK, you've shared it, can we move on from that stuff?

You say the fire of God needs to be welcomed, I'm saying we need to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. I think that's what the Bible says.

Is it because I don't call it "fire" that this seems somehow "less than" to you? The transformation by the Holy Spirit through the renewing of our minds? Because that's how the Bible talks about our changing for the better.

But like I said, I'm interested in looking at those fire passages . . . I'm looking forward to it. And that's the topic, or so I thought.

Much love!

 

[marks]

How can one know not to extinguish the fires of the Holy Spirit if they don't even recognize when it's being mentioned in scripture?

Again, don't feel you need respond, only, you write some good things that get me to thinking.

I think the question is, if I use other wording, How will we not quench the fervency the Holy Spirit builds in us if we aren't participating through lack of understanding?

I think the real answer is to use the Bible to teach us how the Spirit works, and to work the same alongside Him. If the Holy Spirit gives us a partial baptism at first, with a more complete baptism later, then that's fantastic! And if there are even more baptisms, better still! I can look forward to these profound advancements in the faith in times to come.

If the Bible describes a different way in which we mature in our faith and practice, then we do well to understand that, is that not so?

I think at the heart of the matter is our fervent and sincere love for the brethren. God has outpoured His love into our hearts. I think the degree of fervency we live in will be in our love for others, and our commitment to them. In the ways we love them, through giving food or blankets, or love and support, teaching and admonition, healings and prophecies, alms, and prayers, and whatever it may be, it's that outpouring of love from God.

Much love!

 

[marks]

What is holding everything back. I believe, and so I have. So it is with a little child. Many claim to have, but have not. These I see, because He promised to give us eyes to see. And then there are those that have, the early church had, because they believed, as do my brothers and sisters. It is my Fathers desire that we believe. Believe The Words that He has spoken. It is also His desire that His Children receive all that He has promised them. And what has He promised. An example: It has been said, that he who believes shall speak in new tongues. I believed it was His will for me to have this gift(The Gift is Him) so I went and asked for it. Then, I thanked Him for it(faith or I believed His Words). In less than a minute, He made it come to pass. "I came to cast fire upon the earth: and would that it were already kindled! I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how I am constrained until it is accomplished!" It is His Fire, and when we believe(have faith) He ignites it as He sees fit. The enemy has sown a seed of doubt which has taken hold of many, it is time to believe and let The Lord do the rest. Like a child, one day I asked The Lord, so how did You walk on water? And there was a pause, and He said," My son, I believed, and so I walked."

"I came to cast fire upon the earth: and would that it were already kindled! I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how I am constrained until it is accomplished!"

This is one I was thinking on . . .

Like a child. Amen!!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Luke 12:49-51 KJV
49) I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
50) But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
51) Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

Luke 12:47-52 LITV
47) But that slave knowing the will of his Lord, and not preparing, nor doing according to His will, will be beaten with many stripes.
48) But he not knowing, and doing things worthy of stripes, will be beaten with few. And everyone given much, much will be demanded from him. And to whom much was deposited, more exceedingly they will ask of him.
49) I came to hurl fire into the earth, and what will I if it already has been lit?
50) But I have a baptism to be immersed in, and how am I pressed until it is done!
51) Do you think that I came to give peace in the earth? No, I say to you, But rather division.
52) For from now on five in one house will have been divided, three against two, and two against three.

Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

You say the fire of God needs to be welcomed, I'm saying we need to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. I think that's what the Bible says.

Good morning, Mark. I think this is our primary point of difference right here (and has been before), which is why I point to perspective as to which side of the fence one falls. I am a firm believer that the outpouring and the power of God are what effected change in the earth in New Testament times and will be again in the end-times. Certainly we need to renew our minds, but if that is all Christianity is, it is nothing but a mental religion. I had massive problems with Behold over this. Healing the sick, casting out devils, raising the dead, prophetic utterance, supernatural words of knowledge, etc. have historically been our justification for professing to people that what we teach is the word of God not merely the word of men.

As Paul said:

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. (1 Corinthians 2:1-5)

I believe you are falling on the exact opposite side of the fence from Paul in your position on this issue. But we've had that discussion before. You have stated your belief in that past that it is only the false prophets and false Christs who will be manifesting supernatural power in the end-times. Therefore, I would think you would naturally fall into the category of thinking the "fire" mentioned here is upon the wicked, not the righteous.

The transformation by the Holy Spirit through the renewing of our minds?

Ugh... definitely not an expression I would ever use. The transformation doesn't come simply because we "renew our minds." That is reading modern Christianity into the New Testament. The biggest things that effected transformation during New Testament times were the outpourings, and witnessing the power of God in manifestation through signs, wonders, miracles, etc. This is what caught the world's attention to begin with, and without them the world rightly has not much reason to simply trust us when we say we speak the "word of God."

 

[theefaith]

Your Catholic apologetics is so predictable.

Its biblical!

kinda hard to when the church wrote the New Testament bible!

 

[Hidden In Him]

Luke 12:47-52 LITV
47) But that slave knowing the will of his Lord, and not preparing, nor doing according to His will, will be beaten with many stripes.
48) But he not knowing, and doing things worthy of stripes, will be beaten with few. And everyone given much, much will be demanded from him. And to whom much was deposited, more exceedingly they will ask of him.
49) I came to hurl fire into the earth, and what will I if it already has been lit?
50) But I have a baptism to be immersed in, and how am I pressed until it is done!
51) Do you think that I came to give peace in the earth? No, I say to you, But rather division.
52) For from now on five in one house will have been divided, three against two, and two against three.

"hurl" fire... makes it sound like He is referring to the fires of judgment rather than the fires of the Holy Spirit. Is that what you were thinking the passage is saying here?

 

[marks]

I am a firm believer that the outpouring and the power of God are what effected change in the earth in New Testament times and will be again in the end-times.

Isn't the topic "revival of Christians" in general? Maybe I missed that, if this was supposed to be end times revival only. I didn't think we were on a Latter Rain idea.

Certainly we need to renew our minds, but if that is all Christianity is, it is nothing but a mental religion.

Of course that's not so. If all Christianity is learning to think a different way, what do you need God for that? Just a pop psyche book, a bag of popcorn, and a long weekend should do fine.

But if the work of God in a man is power and righteousness and newness of life, as God Himself joins to the man, to transform all that he is and does and things and values, by giving life of His Own life, righteous and holy and trusting and loving and powerful! If this is God's work in a man, and the man does not know it, or does not believe it, does not think that way, then the renewing of the mind is EXACTLY what he needs.

To begin to think according to what God has already done for us, in forgiving us our sins, in cleansing us of unrighteousness, of creating us new, free, His children.

Healing the sick, casting out devils, raising the dead, prophetic utterance, supernatural words of knowledge, etc. have historically been our justification for professing to people that what we teach is the word of God not merely the word of men.

I'm not speaking about this. Remember . . . I'm not cessationist. Not at all.

I believe you are falling on the exact opposite side of the fence from Paul in your position on this issue. But we've had that discussion before. You have stated in the past your belief in that past that it is only the false prophets and false Christs who will be manifesting supernatural power in the end-times.

Again, something other than this thread I think. My belief that there will be end times delusion with lying signs and wonders does not impact my belief that the Spirit of God is alive and active in us now, in all manner of workings and miracles, however He wills to work.

Therefore, I would think you would naturally fall into the category of thinking the "fire" mentioned here is upon the wicked, not the righteous.

That's a bunny trail. It leads nowhere.

I go from my study of the Word. Preferences for one doctrine over another are foolish in my opinion. I feel the best thing to do is to look at a passage first without any regard towards any other, just to see what that passage itself is saying. Then begin to expand the contexts, the more in depth studies, but those sorts of cognative bias are dangerous and misleading.

Someone enamoured to the idea of an massive end times revival may choose to see that where it doesn't exist, and someone enamoured to the idea of no such thing can have the same error, in failing to see the real teaching through their own cognative bias. We need to be careful about that.

Much love!

 

[marks]

"hurl" fire... makes it sound like He is referring to the fires of judgment rather than the fires of the Holy Spirit. Is that what you were thinking the passage is saying here?

I just posted the quotation . . . I'm planning to come back to it for more consideration.

Much love!

 

[marks]

marks said: ↑

The transformation by the Holy Spirit through the renewing of our minds?

Ugh... definitely not an expression I would ever use. The transformation doesn't come simply because we "renew our minds." That is reading modern Christianity into the New Testament. The biggest things that effected transformation during New Testament times were the outpourings, and witnessing the power of God in manifestation through signs, wonders, miracles, etc. This is what caught the world's attention to begin with, and without them the world rightly has not much reason to simply trust us when we say we speak the "word of God."

This is how God speaks,

Romans 12:1-2 LITV
1) Therefore, brothers, I call on you through the compassions of God to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing to God, which is your reasonable service.
2) And be not conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, in order to prove by you what is the good and pleasing and perfect will of God.

"be transformed" is the passive voice, which is why I credit this work to the Holy Spirit.

Be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that's God's Word, not mine.

So I ask the question . . . how does "renewing my mind" bring transformation into my life?

I go back to Peter, who wrote that God has given us all we need for life and godliness, and that through His promises we can escape from the corruption.

So I answer, God has already done for me what is needed to be done, some perhaps in what He's remade me into, some perhaps in what He supplies at the time, but it's all there for me. All that remains is that I apprehend. That I take hold of "Christ in me, the hope of glory".

That my mind be renewed as I learn about Jesus, as learning about Him makes me more like Him (1 John 3), experiencing His work through me makes me more like Him (2 Corinthians 3). When we see Him, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.

So what prevents us from being more like Him now? Perhaps it's failing to see Him as He is, perhaps having cherished ideas that are different? It's truth that sets us free.

The renewing of the mind is learning to think in our minds as Christ has made us in our new creation, righteous, holy, loving, serving.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I don't discount the supernatural . . . but I don't elevate one part over another, God works in many ways, and it's all in His almighty power, all His supernatural working, whether He is restoring a man to life, or resurrecting the dead, or healing my broken heart.

Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

Isn't the topic "revival of Christians" in general? Maybe I missed that, if this was supposed to be end times revival only. I didn't think we were on a Latter Rain idea

I don't think there's going to be much revival without the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, so until then I don't expect much. I don't subscribe to the power of the mind being of much effect.

But if the work of God in a man is power and righteousness and newness of life, as God Himself joins to the man, to transform all that he is and does and things and values, by giving life of His Own life, righteous and holy and trusting and loving and powerful! If this is God's work in a man, and the man does not know it, or does not believe it, does not think that way, then the renewing of the mind is EXACTLY what he needs.

And what causes him to believe it? Signs and wonders are sent to confirm the word.

I'm not speaking about this. Remember . . . I'm not cessationist. Not at all.

Well I've taken your word on that in the past, and I am not into judging people on it one way or another. But you still tend to side on the Cessationsist side of things in your interpretations sometimes.

That's a bunny trail. It leads nowhere.

Wasn't meant to go anywhere, and my apologies if that came off as defamatory. Simply repeating my assertion that I think your established theology in certain areas colors how you interpret passages like the ones we are in.

Someone enamoured to the idea of an massive end times revival may choose to see that where it doesn't exist, and someone enamoured to the idea of no such thing can have the same error, in failing to see the real teaching through their own cognative bias. We need to be careful about that.

Meh... I do agree that we need to keep an open mind in many instances, but I'm not sure this one of them. I view the outpouring as referred to in Joel 2:28 as being as certain as the Lord's return, or Armageddon, or the eventual emergence of the Antichrist.

This is how God speaks,

Romans 12:1-2 LITV
1) Therefore, brothers, I call on you through the compassions of God to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing to God, which is your reasonable service.
2) And be not conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, in order to prove by you what is the good and pleasing and perfect will of God.

"be transformed" is the passive voice, which is why I credit this work to the Holy Spirit.

Be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that's God's Word, not mine.

So I ask the question . . . how does "renewing my mind" bring transformation into my life?

I go back to Peter, who wrote that God has given us all we need for life and godliness, and that through His promises we can escape from the corruption.

So I answer, God has already done for me what is needed to be done, some perhaps in what He's remade me into, some perhaps in what He supplies at the time, but it's all there for me. All that remains is that I apprehend. That I take hold of "Christ in me, the hope of glory".

That my mind be renewed as I learn about Jesus, as learning about Him makes me more like Him (1 John 3), experiencing His work through me makes me more like Him (2 Corinthians 3). When we see Him, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.

So what prevents us from being more like Him now? Perhaps it's failing to see Him as He is, perhaps having cherished ideas that are different? It's truth that sets us free.

The renewing of the mind is learning to think in our minds as Christ has made us in our new creation, righteous, holy, loving, serving.

Much love!

But again, what is it that begins that process, and continues to initiate it in our lives? Pentecostals point to the continued experience of His Presence, through worship and the operation of the supernatural gifts, whereby we know not just by faith but experientially that He is with us, and is a consuming Fire, and will have no other god before Him.

I just posted the quotation . . . I'm planning to come back to it for more consideration.

Much love!

Good. It's a good passage. I'd like to discuss it.

 

[marks]

Luke 12:47-52 LITV
47) But that slave knowing the will of his Lord, and not preparing, nor doing according to His will, will be beaten with many stripes.
48) But he not knowing, and doing things worthy of stripes, will be beaten with few. And everyone given much, much will be demanded from him. And to whom much was deposited, more exceedingly they will ask of him.
49) I came to hurl fire into the earth, and what will I if it already has been lit?
50) But I have a baptism to be immersed in, and how am I pressed until it is done!
51) Do you think that I came to give peace in the earth? No, I say to you, But rather division.
52) For from now on five in one house will have been divided, three against two, and two against three.

Revelation 8:5-7 KJV
5) And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
6) And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
7) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I don't subscribe to the power of the mind being of much effect.

I'm getting the idea we're not really communicating here.

I'll give this some thought and come back to it.

Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

I'm getting the idea we're not really communicating here.

I'll give this some thought and come back to it.

No, no. I fully agree with you that the renewing of the mind is a necessary part of our development, and without it we will remain bound to a ton of misconceptions implanted by the enemy and the world. I'm simply saying that there needs to be the reinforcement of supernatural experience behind what we believe and think, or Satan will eventually ask is us if we are not simply pursuing a religion that is ALL in our minds, and if we can point to nothing else, we place ourselves in spiritual danger, because our faith was never founded on much of anything else.

 

[marks]

I'm simply saying that there needs to be the reinforcement of supernatural experience behind what we believe and think,

I would sooner say that needs to be the spiritual reality behind what we believe and think. Your experience of your life is entirely subjective. I've seen the miracles which have given their part in strengthening my faith, but I also know an internal evidence of God's presence, which supports my faith perhaps even more.

I'm not thinking to parse between the different sorts of experiences, whether it be an indisputable physical miracle, or a timely passage of Scripture, God knows what He intends for me. And we are all different.

Jesus said if they don't believe the law and the prophets, they won't believe if someone comes back from the dead. Upon what do we base our faith? What makes for a truly unshakable faith?

Do we require a sign? Isn't that what gets people into trouble?

Much love!

 

[marks]

No, no. I fully agree with you that the renewing of the mind is a necessary part of our development,

What else do you see needing to happen in us to mature us, aside from renewing our minds? What do you see not being a part of that?

Much love!

 

[theefaith]

What is holding everything back. I believe, and so I have. So it is with a little child. Many claim to have, but have not. These I see, because He promised to give us eyes to see. And then there are those that have, the early church had, because they believed, as do my brothers and sisters. It is my Fathers desire that we believe. Believe The Words that He has spoken. It is also His desire that His Children receive all that He has promised them. And what has He promised. An example: It has been said, that he who believes shall speak in new tongues. I believed it was His will for me to have this gift(The Gift is Him) so I went and asked for it. Then, I thanked Him for it(faith or I believed His Words). In less than a minute, He made it come to pass. "I came to cast fire upon the earth: and would that it were already kindled! I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how I am constrained until it is accomplished!" It is His Fire, and when we believe(have faith) He ignites it as He sees fit. The enemy has sown a seed of doubt which has taken hold of many, it is time to believe and let The Lord do the rest. Like a child, one day I asked The Lord, so how did You walk on water? And there was a pause, and He said," My son, I believed, and so I walked."

Infant baptism?

 

[rockytopva]

Our church service where a wonderful Spirt can be sensed as well as talked about…

 

[David H.]

Isn't the topic "revival of Christians" in general? Maybe I missed that, if this was supposed to be end times revival only. I didn't think we were on a Latter Rain idea.

The next revival on a large scale will be the "latter rain", as this Laodicean church age, which says "they are in need of nothing", as indicated by the denial for the need for revival in my posts indicates.