Revival is the Baptism By fire

[David H.]

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (Matthew 3:11)

And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel. (Exodus 24:17)

All throughout scripture God is Pictured as a devouring fire, a pillar of fire etc. The Picture of the Baptism by fire is the presence of the LORD coming upon the church as is so frequently described in those who have experienced revival.

 

[Pathfinder7]

Good post/topic.
---
Recently, I read an interesting book.
'Firefall 2.0'
How God has shaped history through Revivals.

 

[David H.]

Recently, I read an interesting book.
'Firefall 2.0'
How God has shaped history through Revivals.

I Will have to look the book up when I get a chance.
Thanks

 

[Karl Peters]

I get the concept behind thinking God reshapes the world by revivals, but it might be a bit simply minded to think that way. While He certain has used revivals to do things they don't always ultimately work out like we would think. Let me go over a couple of examples in the Bible. Jonah might be a good example. The Lord sends Jonah to Nineveh to preach and the whole city repents and the city is saved!! Or is it. A couple hundred years later the city is destroyed so completely that it simply disappears from history for a long time. A prophet even explained that this would happen.

Zep 2:13 And He will stretch out His hand against the north And destroy Assyria,
And He will make Nineveh a desolation, Parched like the wilderness.

The city literally got buried under the sands of the desert so that it was thought to be a fabled city until it was found again about 1847. So God caused a revival, but it was like a last resort and ultimately it didn't work.

Another example might be the great works Jesus did in the northern part of Galilee. That was where He did most of His miracles, but then later Jesus makes a rather devastating statement about that area where He has caused a big revival.

Mat 11:23, 24 “And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day “Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”

Yet by contrast we see Jesus take a handful of faithful disciples and ultimately gets them to go around from city to city starting up little churches which seem to start more like little Bible studies in someone's house and Christianity winds up everywhere.

Now I am not against big revival meetings, but they might not bring about the more permanent change that we think they do.

 

[Ancient]

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (Matthew 3:11)

And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel. (Exodus 24:17)

All throughout scripture God is Pictured as a devouring fire, a pillar of fire etc. The Picture of the Baptism by fire is the presence of the LORD coming upon the church as is so frequently described in those who have experienced revival.

I may throw a spanner in the works here. The quoted verse of Matt 3:11 "he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire."

The very last part of the verse "and with fire" the English word "and" is the Greek word και this word can also be translated as "or".
So what am I saying? We know Yeshua (Jesus) is the judge and will cast all those who are not believers in Him into the lake of fire at the end.
Another word for "baptism" is immersion. So could it be that Yeshua will immerse in fire. I don't know if I want to be baptized in fire, which could be a total mistranslation of the text.
This is a very viable alternative which lines up with other portions of scripture especially when it come to the final judgement.

Shalom and Blessings

 

[Rita]

I get the concept behind thinking God reshapes the world by revivals, but it might be a bit simply minded to think that way. While He certain has used revivals to do things they don't always ultimately work out like we would think. Let me go over a couple of examples in the Bible. Jonah might be a good example. The Lord sends Jonah to Nineveh to preach and the whole city repents and the city is saved!! Or is it. A couple hundred years later the city is destroyed so completely that it simply disappears from history for a long time. A prophet even explained that this would happen.

Zep 2:13 And He will stretch out His hand against the north And destroy Assyria,
And He will make Nineveh a desolation, Parched like the wilderness.

The city literally got buried under the sands of the desert so that it was thought to be a fabled city until it was found again about 1847. So God caused a revival, but it was like a last resort and ultimately it didn't work.

Another example might be the great works Jesus did in the northern part of Galilee. That was where He did most of His miracles, but then later Jesus makes a rather devastating statement about that area where He has caused a big revival.

Mat 11:23, 24 “And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day “Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”

Yet by contrast we see Jesus take a handful of faithful disciples and ultimately gets them to go around from city to city starting up little churches which seem to start more like little Bible studies in someone's house and Christianity winds up everywhere.

Now I am not against big revival meetings, but they might not bring about the more permanent change that we think they do.

I have often wondered if the book of Jonah was more for Jonahs sake than Nineveh. How many of us read it from the prospective of Nineveh itself, usually it’s for the lessons that Jonah himself learnt along the way and a picture of Christ and salvation.
I am presuming that the Ninevites turned back to their evil ways, given that it was generations later when it was destroyed. However each revival brings more into the kingdom, so even if that revival simmers off it still has purpose for those who came to faith through it x
Rita

 

[David H.]

I may throw a spanner in the works here. The quoted verse of Matt 3:11 "he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire."

The very last part of the verse "and with fire" the English word "and" is the Greek word και this word can also be translated as "or".
So what am I saying? We know Yeshua (Jesus) is the judge and will cast all those who are not believers in Him into the lake of fire at the end.
Another word for "baptism" is immersion. So could it be that Yeshua will immerse in fire. I don't know if I want to be baptized in fire, which could be a total mistranslation of the text.
This is a very viable alternative which lines up with other portions of scripture especially when it come to the final judgement.

Shalom and Blessings

Large parts of the church deny the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, let alone the Baptism of fire. Part of this is they play word games, or doctrinal divisions of scripture to make them of none effect (hyper dispensationalism).

We must learn to rightly divide the word of God, and sometimes that means seeing the simple meaning of the text over linguistic complexity. Theology can be a deceiver in this respect, and lead the church astray.

I Say this not to knock your point down, but rather to engage in a conversation as to what the Baptism of fire is? In doing my research I find very little on this topic, and what is out there is a mixing of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the baptism of fire....i.e. Charismatic "revival" preaching. I Believe these are two different things in the life of the believer.

 

[Karl Peters]

I have often wondered if the book of Jonah was more for Jonahs sake than Nineveh. How many of us read it from the prospective of Nineveh itself, usually it’s for the lessons that Jonah himself learnt along the way and a picture of Christ and salvation.
I am presuming that the Ninevites turned back to their evil ways, given that it was generations later when it was destroyed. However each revival brings more into the kingdom, so even if that revival simmers off it still has purpose for those who came to faith through it x
Rita

Certainly God does things for a reason!

And the work of God is that all should come to know the Son!

So certainly revivals are done by God so that all should come to know the Son - which doesn't mean they will but that they should come to know the Son.

Is we know the Son we have come to know that He is in the still small voice of His. That is to say we that if we know Him we talk back and forth with Him via His Holy Spirit communicating with our spirit - that small voice of His.

In the Bible we find one of my favorite explanation of this:

1 Kings 19: 11-13 So He said, “Go forth and stand on the mountain before the LORD.” And behold, the LORD was passing by! And a great and strong wind was rending the mountains and breaking in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind. And after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. After the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire; and after the fire a sound of a gentle blowing. When Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his mantle and went out and stood in the entrance of the cave. And behold, a voice came to him and said, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”

Now the premise of this thread seems to be that the Lord is found in the strong wind, earthquake, and fire (the revival), yet those were there to break off things, shake things up, and burn off things - the Lord is found in that gentle blowing small voice of His. We who know Him certainly understand that.

Oh we too may need a revival - a strong wind, shaking, and fire - at times in our lives. And I do suppose those things from God does change things in our lives. Yet honestly, for me, it is that small voice of His that really makes the difference in my life!! His small voice contains the instructions, the teachings, and most importantly the relationship with Him that I need!! That is to say that He personally (not the revivals) makes the changes in our lives!!! The revival (big wind, earthquake, and fire) is there to just show us that He is God so that we turn our attention back onto Him.

Also - and this is important - He once talked to me about how not everyone experiencing His revivals (the power of God at large meetings) turn to Him and get to know Him. People can repent when the are faced with the power of God, but that repentance does not always actually lead to really turning to God and developing a relationship with Him! There has to be a belief/trust in Him so that you seek Him as opposed to leaning on your own understanding. So it was that it was going to be worse for the cities like Capernaum who had seen the great miracles Jesus does, because they saw the acts of God but were into the miracles and did not come into a relationship with Him via the Holy Spirit's gentle blowing small voice!

Jn 6:63,64,“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.

Don't get me wrong - I am all for revivals, the great wind of God, the shaking up of God, and the fire of God - yet God is not in those things He is in that small voice which we can and need to hear from everyday!!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Baptism of fire is an immersion into the fire. We are told this fire shall never be quenched. That’s hellfire

baptism if the spirit is what separates the sheet from the chaff and places it immerses us in Christ. (See rom 6, Col 2, 1 cor 13). Everyone will be baptized by Christ. Pray it is not of
Fire

as for revival we see through Jonah how a revival can take place. Sometimes it just takes one

 

[Karl Peters]

Baptism of fire is an immersion into the fire. We are told this fire shall never be quenched. That’s hellfire

baptism if the spirit is what separates the sheet from the chaff and places it immerses us in Christ. (See rom 6, Col 2, 1 cor 13). Everyone will be baptized by Christ. Pray it is not of
Fire

as for revival we see through Jonah how a revival can take place. Sometimes it just takes one

Just because we see a lake of fire that does not mean that the Baptism of fire is "hell's fire". Did you not also read that tongues came down like fire. And you might check out my prior post on this thread where there was a strong wind, earthquake, and fire that came from God which Elijah saw. Yes - there is a Baptism of fire from God, that seems to relate to those two events - but God is not in those even though they were from Him - God is in that small voice of His and we must know Him - which means talking back and forth with Him. Talking back and forth with someone is how we get to know someone - not by watching a fire they might make!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Just because we see a lake of fire that does not mean that the Baptism of fire is "hell's fire". Did you not also read that tongues came down like fire. And you might check out my prior post on this thread where there was a strong wind, earthquake, and fire that came from God which Elijah saw. Yes - there is a Baptism of fire from God, that seems to relate to those two events - but God is not in those even though they were from Him - God is in that small voice of His and we must know Him - which means talking back and forth with Him. Talking back and forth with someone is how we get to know someone - not by watching a fire they might make!

I just read what the author wrote and what John said

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”


1. John baptizes in water based on repentance of the person
2. Jesus who is mightier, will baptize with the HS and Fire. (His is a far greater baptism that mine)
3. A winnowing fan is used to separate wheat from chaff This winnowing fan would be the HS
4. Those baptized with the spirit (the wheat, or believers) are placed in the barn (here representing heaven)
5. The chaff (non believer) he will baptize in the fire that will never be quenched (hell)

the fires you spoke of were not unquenchable fire. And there was no baptism involved.

Sadly people take these actions of immersion and try to make some religious application. When we should just take them literally for what they are

 

[Berserk]

"Revival" is NOT a biblical term. In our day the word either gets watered down to the point of being meaningless or muddied up by vague jargon (e. g. "baptism by fire") with no clear application to Christian experience of the Spirit. Duncan Campbell was a central figure in the last great revival (the Hebrides revival of 1949-54). He convincingly explains the difference between real revival and occasional times of refreshing" "In a real revival the Holy Spirit falls primarily on the unchurched."

Thus, in the Hebrides revival, several hundred of apathetic unsaved youth at a dance suddenly fled the premises as if from a plague and demanded to enter a church so they could find God. Hundreds more went to town in front of the police station to get saved because they had heard that the police chief was a Christian and could explain the way of salvation. Duncan Campbell rushed to the scene to leave them to Christ. What they didn't realize was that the police station was across the street from the Smith sisters, two octogenarians who had fasted and prayed all night 2 nights a week for revival. Roadside ditches were filled with seekers under conviction of sin, prostrate on their faces crying out for mercy!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I get the concept behind thinking God reshapes the world by revivals, but it might be a bit simply minded to think that way. While He certain has used revivals to do things they don't always ultimately work out like we would think. Let me go over a couple of examples in the Bible. Jonah might be a good example. The Lord sends Jonah to Nineveh to preach and the whole city repents and the city is saved!! Or is it. A couple hundred years later the city is destroyed so completely that it simply disappears from history for a long time. A prophet even explained that this would happen.

Zep 2:13 And He will stretch out His hand against the north And destroy Assyria,
And He will make Nineveh a desolation, Parched like the wilderness.

The city literally got buried under the sands of the desert so that it was thought to be a fabled city until it was found again about 1847. So God caused a revival, but it was like a last resort and ultimately it didn't work.

Another example might be the great works Jesus did in the northern part of Galilee. That was where He did most of His miracles, but then later Jesus makes a rather devastating statement about that area where He has caused a big revival.

Mat 11:23, 24 “And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day “Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”

Yet by contrast we see Jesus take a handful of faithful disciples and ultimately gets them to go around from city to city starting up little churches which seem to start more like little Bible studies in someone's house and Christianity winds up everywhere.

Now I am not against big revival meetings, but they might not bring about the more permanent change that we think they do.

Yeah but…new generations of men come up and older generations die and trust declines and then God sends a prophet and new generations experience revival. It’s all through the OT. It’s a pretty reliable pattern.

 

[David H.]

"Revival" is NOT a biblical term. In our day the word either gets watered down to the point of being meaningless or muddied up by vague jargon (e. g. "baptism by fire") with no clear application to Christian experience of the Spirit. Duncan Campbell was a central figure in the last great revival (the Hebrides revival of 1949-54). He convincingly explains the difference between real revival and occasional times of refreshing" "In a real revival the Holy Spirit falls primarily on the unchurched."

Thus, in the Hebrides revival, several hundred of apathetic unsaved youth at a dance suddenly fled the premises as if from a plague and demanded to enter a church so they could find God. Hundreds more went to town in front of the police station to get saved because they had heard that the police chief was a Christian and could explain the way of salvation. Duncan Campbell rushed to the scene to leave them to Christ. What they didn't realize was that the police station was across the street from the Smith sisters, two octogenarians who had fasted and prayed all night 2 nights a week for revival. Roadside ditches were filled with seekers under conviction of sin, prostrate on their faces crying out for mercy!

The Holy Spirit also falls on those who are "churched" yet sleeping. We have many of those in the churches today. I dare say at least 3/4 of the so called Christians fall into that category if not more....

 

[Enoch111]

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (Matthew 3:11)

We should note that this was addressed to the Pharisees and Sadducees who came to observe John as he baptized in the river Jordan. When we take the entire passage from Matthew 3:7 to 3:12, it puts an entirely different light on the meaning of "fire" in that verse. In fact it speaks of the fires of Hell -- "unquenchable fire".

So the interpretation of this passage is that (1) believers would be baptized with the Holy Ghost (from Pentecost onwards) while (2) unbelievers (the chaff) would be cast into Hell. There is no reference to revival here.

Also John's baptism was "unto repentance" for repentant Jews. Christian baptism is confirmation that the believing sinner has indeed repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ (who said that repentance for necessary for the remission of sins).

 

[Ancient]

We must learn to rightly divide the word of God, and sometimes that means seeing the simple meaning of the text over linguistic complexity. Theology can be a deceiver in this respect, and lead the church astray.

Yes agreed one needs to be rightly dividing the word. Which is at it's core linguistic. This is where most of the problems with the doctrines of men stem from not understanding and rightly dividing the word.

Please understand this next phrase "Our English Bibles are translations of The Bible! which was written in another language predominately Hebrew and within another culture far different from our own westernized modern culture."

We cannot get our doctrines from the Modern English context, we must go back to the best of our ability and learn the times and languages our Bibles were written in. Part of this is hugely linguistic. As in the original Bible there were no chapters, verses, punctuation. They used other grammatical tools such as the form of root words to explain the tense whether the action was past, present or future, the words are gender based in Hebrew which is masculine or feminine or in Greek masculine, feminine and neuter.

They have different forms to describe the different intensity of an action etc etc. All of this matters in correctly dividing the word. In my experience the majority of churches have no clue what our Bibles are actually teaching and saying. The extreme danger of this is what we have ended up with today is thousands of denominations, many churches unintentionally in sin because of ignorance (not understanding the word) redefining many passages of scripture because of lack of understanding reading from a modern English western view, causing many to stumble.
Looking at the fruit of many major denominations today and seeing what is acceptable now it is evident that the Word of God is not being divided correctly.

So yes with all due respect I think linguistics is a massive part of rightly dividing the word. Every teacher and pastor of the word will be held accountable for how they divide and teach the word, the Bible puts a lot of weight and heaviness on those who teach.
This is not taught at the Bible seminaries or colleges which by the way have a denominational bias. Having some letters after your name does not mean a thing. Did Paul, Peter, Andrew, James etc have letters after their names and all the hundreds and thousands of 1st century believers?
One who teaches should know these things to the best of their ability.

Understanding this has totally changed my life and the way I now teach. I am ashamed of how I use to teach and preach in total ignorance. I went to the Bible college did not get taught a thing about rightly dividing the word. I repented.
I thank YHWH for helping me see how big of a deal this really is. Preaching and teaching IS NOT about being popular, telling funny stories and drawing the crowd into your message it is about Him and Him alone (GOD) and doing all you can to help people draw closer to Him and understand His word a little more each week. It is about challenging people so they grow and change.

Line upon line, precept upon precept.

It's not about having thousands in a building or numbers and fame. I would rather be with 50 people totally devoted to following YHWH than be in a place of thousands and thousands that do not seem to know how to.
You know them by their fruit.

Shalom

 

[Truman]

For me, it's the new birth and old creation that are discussed here. I have received both baptisms, as I am a stubborn man. Not even willfully, though that has entered into it, it just seems to be the material that I'm made out of. I think it's a genetic thing.

 

[David H.]

We should note that this was addressed to the Pharisees and Sadducees who came to observe John as he baptized in the river Jordan. When we take the entire passage from Matthew 3:7 to 3:12, it puts an entirely different light on the meaning of "fire" in that verse. In fact it speaks of the fires of Hell -- "unquenchable fire".

So the interpretation of this passage is that (1) believers would be baptized with the Holy Ghost (from Pentecost onwards) while (2) unbelievers (the chaff) would be cast into Hell. There is no reference to revival here.

Also John's baptism was "unto repentance" for repentant Jews. Christian baptism is confirmation that the believing sinner has indeed repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ (who said that repentance for necessary for the remission of sins).

You are correct, in that Revival is a type of winnowing, as Per Matthew 3:12, But your understanding of Wheat and Chaff is not right. I think you mistake it for wheat and tares, meaning true converts and false converts and the false converts going to hell. What winnowing is a form of removal of the less desirable part of the grain by tossing it along with the seed into the wind. It is akin to refining fire which removes the dross from metals. That is to say Revival removes the less than desirable parts of the Believers life from them, by fire. The Pharisees and their teachings at the time of Christ represented this , and Christ was there to "purge the floor" of all the unneeded baggage of religion and the burdens put on the people by these religious leaders which he did by coming as the suffering servant to take away the sin of the people.

Thus revival ultimately is a "purging of the floor" when Christianity becomes burdened with chaff, and the excessive accoutrements of man made religion.

 

[David H.]

Oh we too may need a revival - a strong wind, shaking, and fire

Notice the still small voice comes after the mighty wind.... It is the wind that winnows the church, separates the chaff, and then and only then can we hear that still small voice.

Good comment, God bless

 

[Berserk]

The Holy Spirit also falls on those who are "churched" yet sleeping. We have many of those in the churches today. I dare say at least 3/4 of the so called Christians fall into that category if not more....

You miss the point: It is common for the Spirit to fall on "sleeping" church members, but that is far from indicating revival. Posters need to ask themselves, "Why has no one on this thread bothered to watch the best internet videos on the Welsh, Azusa Street, on the Hebrides revivals and brought them into this discussion?" I think it's because their preconceived biases blind them to the need to learn from what the God of revival has actually done in the 20th century! These 3 revivals were more spectacular than anything that happened in the early church, including on the Day of Pentecost! No spiritual awakening in the 20th century is even remotely as spectacularly miraculous as what erupted in these 3 revivals.

Duncan Campbell is right: the hallmark of true revival is the mass outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the unchurched. Thus, in the Welsh revival 100.000 unchurched were saved in just 4 months. These people came to church all over Wales for unstructured services led spontaneously by the Spirit and often lasted until 3 or 4 AM--and even then the people didn't want to go home. Christians who water down and then fail to explore past revivals help ensure that no such revival will ever recur. Modern Christians just aren't willing to pay the price of the prayer warriors whose intercession caused these great historic revivals to burst into flame.