Reviving Biblical Christianity (The Way) Part 2

[Episkopos]

Well, your post was weird, softly speaking, reprimanding me for talking with Hepzibah and tell me to talk about ecumenical (your favorite warnings) to her instead. Why? And why to her.

I think my answer was pretty mild.

I don't know when your are all going to realize you are speaking empty platitudes, self-congratulatory approvals, and theories of things you have no understanding of...for the most part.
People have veered so off course that this thread has long been hijacked...just like the bible has been hijacked for selfish reasons.

I suggest that people stop posting on my thread and go to a more "feel good" thread.

 

[amigo de christo]

Where it says "by peace he will destroy many".....brother I believe this is speaking of a false peace that causes people to think they are at peace with God when they are not. In other words, nominal belief........which is the enemy of true faith. However, we will see these spiritual things played out in a figure in the world as well....I believe that is even God's prophetic signature....as He is ruling & reigning in all these things. What we see with our natural eyes often reflects what is going on in the spiritual realm. There can be both a natural as well as spiritual fulfillment to things foretold.

the peace that cometh of GOD is not as the peace of the world at all .
Nor is the abundant life . Man is keen to hoping in that which he beleives can sustain him in this life
but what man hopes in and what man trusts in , IS abomination in the sight of GOD .
For man will run to man and hope in man and hope in mammon and hope in whatever
HE thinks and believes can make his life the easy life . But this is abomination in th e sight of GOD .
For man hopes IN WHAT HE SEES and what is seen , But sheep HOPE IN HE who is not seen
and can no man take their peace or joy or hope from them . FOR IT BE IN GOD and THUS IN HIS CHRIST .
And not in this world and in the earthern kingdoms and men of th is world .
And tho ugh the wicked sure seem to prosper and though often the sheep to suffer
WHAT I SAY TO ONE I SAY TO ALL , HE WHOSE HOPE BE IN GOD IS BLESSED
but he whose hope be in men and the earthern is cursed . And you cannot have your hope , trust
in both . nor can man merge them as t hough they be the heavenly .
And now we see this peace plan of theirs , we see this so called religious tolerance .
AND IT IS BLASPHEMY to the ONE TRUE GOD and HIS CHRIST . For by their peace THEY HAVE MADE VOID
the ONLY PEACE of GOD , WHICH IS FAITH IN HIS SON , for what they believe , A LIE and they beleive
will bring peace on earth . ALL OF IT A LIE and all of it sent to all whose h opes were in t his life and in this world and in men
NOT GOD .

 

[amigo de christo]

Well, your post was weird, softly speaking, reprimanding me for talking with Hepzibah and tell me to talk about ecumenical (your favorite warnings) to her instead. Why? And why to her.

I think my answer was pretty mild.

i would not worry about whether an answer is mild or whether it is grave .
MY CONCERN and ONLY concern is , IS IT TRUTH or be it a lie .
We getting way too concerned with what seems pleasing to man and with what might offend man .
BUT HAVE FORGOTTEN , IS IT NOT GOD , HIS CHRIST we ought to have been
concerned with NOT OFFENDING and actually what PLEASES HIM .
NOW YA KNOW why i warn all to get the heck outta this ecumeincal satanic led lie .
IT always panders more and more to what pleases man , NOT GOD . NOT GOD AT ALL but man .
THIS is a serious reminder for a serious wake up call . GET THE HECK OUTTA ANYTHING
attached in any way , in any shape , and any form to seeker friendly , ecumiencalism , interfaith ,
from leaders who always holler all day about a LOVE and A GOD they KNOW NOTH ING about
and by means of their love LEAD THIS PEOPLE TO REBELLION TO THE ONE TRUE HOLY GOD and HIS CHRIST .
ENough with this clark kent misunderstood mild manner stuff . Lest ye THINK JESUS and the apotsels
were MONSTERS . THEY WARNED and WERE VERY VERY GRAVE about things .
THEY were not at all worried about trying to pander to please man , BUT TO PLEASE GOD .
And thus their words would honor GOD and thus their words and warnings were always to THE GOOD
of this people and not as our lovey do judge not , sugar coat everything generation . WHCH has led
to NOTHING but THE DESTRUCTION of the churches and NOT THEIR EDIFICATION . for more info
OPEN BIBLE for you and read bible FOR YOU . YOU do that and you would see
i am no nearly as grave as those men of GOD ever were . This generation has no idea what it has lost
nor whom it serves .

 

[amigo de christo]

Amen. AKA "the spirit of the world".........that is where their unity lies, just as our unity is in the Spirit of Christ. It's very sad to see that spirit of the world invading large swaths of the church. Not all the Israelites left "Egypt" to follow the Lord in the wilderness when the time came to leave it....selah, that is something to think about. Those that remained I expect would have been absorbed by "Egypt" and received of her judgments.

very sad to see this indeed dear sister .
And warned against it must be done . WHO so ever hears and repents amen but who so ever remains judgment upon them
By the very GOD and HIS CHRIST this ecumeincal harlot denied .
What did it say in revelation concerning this lake of fire . Did it not say all unbelievers , the abominable
and all who made and loved A LIE . well h ello i see A LIE being embraced and loved upon by a massive many .
OH it a delusion all right and it has been sent indeed to the rebellious false religoins who rejected THE LOVE of the TRUTH
and upon all of christendom that served and loved another jesus and only USED the NAME OF JESUS
but their heart was far far from THE TRUE JESUS . OH its a delusion all right .
And the false relgoins are buying it , AND SO IS much of christendom . JUST NOT THE SHEEP .
BUT THEN , JESUS HAS THE SHEEP and their hopes be not in the earthern , not in man , and not in mammon
BUT IN HE , IN HIS WORDS , IN HIS GOSPEL , in THE TRUTH . cause JESUS HAS THE SHEEP
and all who are of the TRUTH hear HIM .

 

[ProDeo]

i would not worry about whether an answer is mild or whether it is grave .
MY CONCERN and ONLY concern is , IS IT TRUTH or be it a lie .
We getting way too concerned with what seems pleasing to man and with what might offend man .
BUT HAVE FORGOTTEN , IS IT NOT GOD , HIS CHRIST we ought to have been
concerned with NOT OFFENDING and actually what PLEASES HIM .
NOW YA KNOW why i warn all to get the heck outta this ecumeincal satanic led lie .
IT always panders more and more to what pleases man , NOT GOD . NOT GOD AT ALL but man .
THIS is a serious reminder for a serious wake up call . GET THE HECK OUTTA ANYTHING
attached in any way , in any shape , and any form to seeker friendly , ecumiencalism , interfaith ,
from leaders who always holler all day about a LOVE and A GOD they KNOW NOTH ING about
and by means of their love LEAD THIS PEOPLE TO REBELLION TO THE ONE TRUE HOLY GOD and HIS CHRIST .
ENough with this clark kent misunderstood mild manner stuff . Lest ye THINK JESUS and the apotsels
were MONSTERS . THEY WARNED and WERE VERY VERY GRAVE about things .
THEY were not at all worried about trying to pander to please man , BUT TO PLEASE GOD .
And thus their words would honor GOD and thus their words and warnings were always to THE GOOD
of this people and not as our lovey do judge not , sugar coat everything generation . WHCH has led
to NOTHING but THE DESTRUCTION of the churches and NOT THEIR EDIFICATION . for more info
OPEN BIBLE for you and read bible FOR YOU . YOU do that and you would see
i am no nearly as grave as those men of GOD ever were . This generation has no idea what it has lost
nor whom it serves .

No answer to my questions.

Just don't tell me what to say (actually judge, condemn) a person I am talking to.

 

[bdavidc]

If I may just interject....we are thinking too highly of ourselves if we think it's possible to understand all scripture by simply reading/studying it. Our growth is organic...a living phenomenon......understanding generally tends to go hand in hand with actual spiritual growth I believe.......and it takes the Holy Spirit to illuminate the scriptures to our understanding. We all have things in the bible we are simply blind and deaf to until/unless the Holy Spirit illuminates them to our understanding when He gives us the eyes to see and ears to hear them.

And since the bible says to let everything be established on the strength of two or three witnesses (and as we are all called to be witnesses)....we shouldn't dismiss the value of witnesses. Just be careful of course to weigh what they are saying, while humbly realizing that there are things we may not be able to understand until we grow further.

I know we need the illumination of the Holy Spirit to understand Scripture. I have never denied that. But the Holy Spirit opens our understanding to what He has already revealed. He does not add new meanings to the text, change what the text says, or establish doctrines that cannot be shown from Scripture.

“The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple” (Psalm 119:130).

You said there may be things we do not understand until we grow further. That can certainly be true. None of us understands everything perfectly. But spiritual growth does not remove the need to prove a teaching from the Word of God.

You also mentioned two or three witnesses. That does not mean that agreement among several believers establishes an interpretation as truth. People can agree and still be wrong. Every teaching still has to be tested by Scripture.

The Bereans “searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so” (Acts 17:11). They did not accept a teaching merely because respected or spiritually mature people supported it. When you speak of people growing further spiritually, how are you defining a spiritually mature person? What biblical standard are you using to determine that someone is mature enough to understand a teaching that others supposedly cannot yet see?

So the question remains the same: Where does Scripture say that crossing Jordan represents a second work of grace, or that Canaan represents entire sanctification?

The illumination of the Holy Spirit helps us understand Scripture. It does not give us permission to add meanings that Scripture itself does not establish.

 

[bdavidc]

I can't keep up here very well today but I'll try to answer this:

The Word made flesh (Jesus)..... speaks to us in parables and without a parable spake He not to them. That is an important key to understanding the word. That whole saga of the Israelites leaving Egypt, traversing through the wilderness and entering/possessing the Promised Land is a parable for us, the church, though it was literal for them. (I'm even convinced the bible is so chock full of parables (allegories/similitudes/ figures) that no one person could ever know them all in their lifetime. )


Hos 12:10
I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

Gal 4:23-25
But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Heb 11:17-19
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Rom 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Heb 9:6-9
Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Col 2: 16-17
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Heb 10:1
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Heb 8:4-5
For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

I am not denying that Scripture contains parables, figures, shadows, similitudes, and allegories. The issue is who has the authority to assign the meaning to them.

In every passage you cited, Scripture itself identifies the meaning.

Paul says Hagar and Sarah are an allegory of two covenants in Galatians 4. Hebrews explains what the tabernacle and sacrifices signified. Colossians tells us that the ceremonial laws were a shadow of things to come. Romans identifies Adam as a figure of Christ. Those meanings are not guesses made by the reader. They are inspired explanations given in the text.

Hosea 12:10 says that God used similitudes through the prophets. It does not say that we may take any historical detail and assign our own spiritual meaning to it.

The statement that Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables also does not mean that the entire Bible is one enormous hidden parable that we are free to decode. Jesus explained the meaning of His parables to His disciples. The meaning came from Him, not from their imagination.

That is the distinction I have been making. I accept every type, figure, shadow, and allegory that Scripture identifies. What I will not accept is an interpretation being declared biblical truth when the Bible never gives that interpretation.

Hebrews 3 and 4 already tells us the spiritual lesson of Israel’s wilderness failure. They did not enter because of unbelief, and believers are warned not to harden their hearts.

“For we which have believed do enter into rest” (Hebrews 4:3).

First Corinthians 10 also gives the inspired application of their journey. It warns against lust, idolatry, fornication, tempting Christ, and murmuring. Paul does not say that Jordan represents a second work of grace or that Canaan represents entire sanctification.

So the question remains unanswered: Where does Scripture assign those meanings to Jordan and Canaan?

Showing that biblical allegories exist does not prove this particular allegory. The meaning still has to come from Scripture, not from what someone believes the events must symbolize. That is how the church has become so confused and deceived. People adding and twisting what the scriptures actually say.

 

[bdavidc]

No one can make another person "see" it. But just consider, we know we have not left a literal country called Egypt, and that we are not traversing a literal desert wilderness in our life, or trying to conquer and possess a literal piece of real estate called the Promised Land. For the Israelites these things were literal, including that generation dying. But for us, the church they serve as allegories or shadows.....a parable. The death that was literal for them also serves as an allegory for us......it is a warning that we could die spiritually. And at the same time it also speaks to the truth that flesh cannot enter the kingdom of God, only spirit can enter, what is of God's Spirit.....it is showing that our flesh nature (old man) must "die". Everything that can be shaken will be shaken until only what can't be shaken (spirit, new man) remains.

In a figure, what was born of them who died in the wilderness was spirit....their children....sons, the new man. Wilderness is a time of trial and testing....tribulation.....as well as being purgative, it also reveals our flesh nature with all its limitations and faults, shortcomings and undesirable tendencies. We can't really repent thoroughly until we thoroughly know what we need to repent of....God has to show it to us in His light. We need Jesus to thoroughly purge His threshing floor.....and burn up our "chaff". Tribulation is likened to travail in scripture...labour pains.... labour pains are always for the purpose of giving birth to something. We are to give birth to the Son of God......to bring Him forth so to speak so that He is manifested in our lives.....so that it truly will no longer be "I" who live (old man) but Christ (new man) living in me. As even Mary was a figure and example of the church...that which was born of her was of the Holy Spirit.

The bible says in Acts that it is through much tribulation (labour pains) that we are entering the kingdom of God.

The new problem in this post is that you are assigning several more meanings that Scripture never assigns.

You say the children of those who died in the wilderness represent the new man or the spirit. Where does Scripture say that? You say the wilderness is a purging process that exposes and burns up the old man. Where does Scripture say that? You say tribulation is like labor pains through which we give birth to the Son of God in our lives. Where does Scripture say that? You say Mary is a figure of the church bringing forth Christ. Again, where does Scripture say that?

Acts 14:22 says, “We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.” That means believers will suffer affliction on the way to the kingdom. It does not say tribulation gives birth to Christ in us, that it purges away the old man, or that Israel’s children represent the new man.

Galatians 2:20 says, “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me.” That truth is clearly stated. We do not need to build another symbolic system around the wilderness journey to establish it.

The same is true of the old man. Scripture already tells us plainly to put off the old man and put on the new man in Ephesians 4:22–24 and Colossians 3:9–10. Those passages define the doctrine. They do not tell us that the wilderness generation represents the old man or that their children represent the new man.

You are continuing to take biblical truths found in other passages and then read them back into details of Israel’s history without Scripture making those connections. That is the issue. A true doctrine does not make every allegory built around it true.

 

[bdavidc]

The Apostle Peter famously noted in the Bible that Paul's writings contain some things that are "hard to understand". Paul frequently addressed deep theological concepts, complex arguments, and paradoxes, which makes them prone to being misunderstood or distorted.

Lizbeth has rightly said that we are often given parables in order that we may understand. These things show that some things are not available to all and that spiritual discernment is needed.

There is no place for pride, as everything we know from the spiritual realm has been revealed to us and any man may fall at any time.

In the early years of church teaching, it was acknowleged that that there are layers of understanding of the scriptures and that one must be of the same spirit to understand them.

In fact, scripture reads us rather than the other way.

There have been certain children of God that were recognised as having deeper understanding, and those were often martyrs rather than those with the most degrees. Usually how they interpreted scripture was very much like man of the same maturity or holiness.

Peter saying that some of Paul’s writings are hard to understand does not support assigning meanings to Scripture that the text never gives. Peter’s warning was that “they that are unlearned and unstable wrest” those writings “unto their own destruction” (2 Peter 3:16). That is a warning against twisting difficult passages, not permission to discover hidden layers that cannot be demonstrated from Scripture.

I also agree that spiritual discernment is necessary. But spiritual discernment does not replace the written Word as the standard. The Holy Spirit gives us understanding of what He inspired. He does not authorize us to add meanings that cannot be shown from the text.

Parables do not prove Lizbeth’s interpretation either. When Jesus gave parables, the meaning belonged to Him, and He often explained that meaning to His disciples. The listener was not free to assign a spiritual meaning to every person, place, and detail.

You appeal again to early church teaching, spiritually mature people, martyrs, and people who supposedly possessed deeper understanding. None of that answers the question. Martyrdom does not make someone’s interpretation inspired. Holiness does not make someone incapable of error. Agreement among people who consider themselves spiritually mature does not establish biblical truth.

The Bereans tested even the preaching of an apostle by the Scriptures: “They received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so” (Acts 17:11).

The issue is not whether Scripture has deep meaning. Of course it does. The issue is whether the proposed meaning actually comes from Scripture.

Where does Scripture say the wilderness generation represents the old man, their children represent the new man, Jordan represents a second work of grace, or Canaan represents entire sanctification? Neither difficult passages, spiritual discernment, church teachers, nor martyrs establish those claims.

The interpretation still must be shown from the Word of God.

 

[Hepzibah]

@bdavidc

David, I truly understand where you are coming from, so I will try as much as I can here. I was an earnest Bible thumping evangelical for a long time and I mean 50 odd years and fully accepted the teaching, though I went from a fully fledged Cavinist for some of that time.

I absolutely agree that nothing should be accepted that goes against scripture. But scripture is not a rule book that fell out of heaven with nothing else needed.

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." – 2 Thessalonians 2:15 [1]

Paul is saying that not everything is in scripture. That does not say that anything can contradict the written word though. You are not appreciating how much can fall under that for interpretaion.

Protestantism is hugely infected with scholasticism.

The problem here is a mindset that there is in the west as opposed to the eastern and therefore the early church mindset. I am not taking about those who were condemned of heresy. There were disagreements too. But there was a rule that no-one could theologize unless they had reached the stage they called theosis and were considered doctors of the church. Amongst these, there was remarkable agreement.

Roman Catholicalism drew away from the true church, and then, Protestantism from that and carried with it many of the errors of the RCC. Nowadays, Orthodoxy is as full of errors and leaning back to the RCC and ecumenism.

I am not saying that we have permission to spiritualize everything we want to, but there is so much richness in there that helps us in our quest to develop the mind of Christ and so much testimony from the past that gives us guidance of we want to be all that Christ desires for us, that is to be partakers of the divine nature.

The Bereans tested even the preaching of an apostle by the Scriptures: “They received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so” (Acts 17:11).

Looking at that text again, I think Paul could be saying that the Bereans checked out to see if what Paul was teaching was written there, not that they understood the spiritual meanings. And that is what we do in our growth in Christ.

 

[marks]

Paul is saying that not everything is in scripture. That does not say that anything can contradict the written word though. You are not appreciating how much can fall under that for interpretaion.

That was true at that time, but what reason do we have to think that the Bible is insufficient by itself now?

Personally I find the Scriptures so specific that all these doctrinal questions are answered in Scripture, with all heresies being identified and refuted.

But one must be willing to take the Scripture for exactly what they say, and not for what they do not say. Spiritual interpretion, in my understanding, means not filtering the Scriptures through flesh, and I believe the Spirit has to train us in that.

A true and spiritual interpretation will only illuminate the actual words used. You'll read a verse a 100 times, and then at reading 101 it suddenly because clear to you, and you understand the words you read, and you'll see how it was there all the time, only, now you see it.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

That was true at that time, but what reason do we have to think that the Bible is insufficient by itself now?

Personally I find the Scriptures so specific that all these doctrinal questions are answered in Scripture, with all heresies being identified and refuted.

But one must be willing to take the Scripture for exactly what they say, and not for what they do not say. Spiritual interpretion, in my understanding, means not filtering the Scriptures through flesh, and I believe the Spirit has to train us in that.

A true and spiritual interpretation will only illuminate the actual words used. You'll read a verse a 100 times, and then at reading 101 it suddenly because clear to you, and you understand the words you read, and you'll see how it was there all the time, only, now you see it.

Much love!

How many times have you read this verse?

But in every nation he that fears God and does righteousness is accepted with Him

 

[marks]

How many times have you read this verse?

But in every nation he that fears God and does righteousness is accepted with Him

Many times, and in context.

Have you never read,

Acts 17:30-31 KJV
30) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31) Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

?

 

[Episkopos]

Many times, and in context.

Have you never read,

Acts 17:30-31 KJV
30) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31) Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

?

That's not in context....that is a novice mistake of thinking one verse cancels all other verses that says something different. You have taken one verse out of context and destroyed righteousness that God accepts. Amazing.

In one fell swoop you undo all teachings of Jesus including the sermon on the mount. And ironically also what every other book of the bible teaches. How religious and silly.

Find a non-vague verse that shows that God no longer accepts the fear of the Lord, humility, meekness and doing righteousness.

Consider that calling all men into repentance into sinless holiness does not negate ANY attribute of righteousness. Paul said that the bible is good for instruction in righteousness. That means that is something WE are to supply.

 

[Laurina]

Many times, and in context.

Have you never read,

Acts 17:30-31 KJV
30) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31) Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

?

In context would be Acts 10:

1¶There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4¶And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
7And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
8And when he had declared all these things unto them, he sent them to Joppa.
9¶On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14¶But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15¶And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
17¶Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,
18And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.
19¶While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
20Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
21¶Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
22¶And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
23Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.

Peter at Caesarea​

24¶And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends.
25And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
27And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
28And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
29Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?
30¶And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
31And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
32Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
33Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.

Gentiles Hear Good News​

34¶Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
37That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44¶While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

I posted Acts 10 so people could SEE the context. A righteous man, Cornelius (non-Jew), was recognized by God and called into holiness!!
ie Righteousness gets God's attention!!
THAT IS THE CONTEXT.

 

[Hepzibah]

That was true at that time, but what reason do we have to think that the Bible is insufficient by itself now?

Personally I find the Scriptures so specific that all these doctrinal questions are answered in Scripture, with all heresies being identified and refuted.

But one must be willing to take the Scripture for exactly what they say, and not for what they do not say. Spiritual interpretion, in my understanding, means not filtering the Scriptures through flesh, and I believe the Spirit has to train us in that.

A true and spiritual interpretation will only illuminate the actual words used. You'll read a verse a 100 times, and then at reading 101 it suddenly because clear to you, and you understand the words you read, and you'll see how it was there all the time, only, now you see it.

Much love!

We bring a mind set and pressupositions to the scriptures which vastly affects interpretation, but we do not see it and insist that our understanding is the true one hence thousands of Protestant denominations.

It is only when we develop another mind set that we see it. Those that convert from the western arms of the church are amazed at the things they did not see before.

It is true that we are illuminated with deeper spiritutal understanding, and this is what the Bible is insufficient in, that is the part we must provide. Not us exactly, but in obedience to the holy light. The flesh needs to decrease. Just because we are stuck in a phase does not mean that we have reached the summit of understanding the specifics.

We develop a theological system over time according to the tradition we attend, but the results can be seen for themselves - baby believers, barely recognisable as Christians It is not the interpretation that leads to real saints that we found in the past, in the east especially before so much error came in the first year or two, and at times in the west when entire sanctification was taught.

 

[Hepzibah]

In context would be Acts 10:

1¶There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4¶And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
7And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
8And when he had declared all these things unto them, he sent them to Joppa.
9¶On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14¶But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15¶And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
17¶Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,
18And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.
19¶While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
20Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
21¶Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
22¶And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
23Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.

Peter at Caesarea​

24¶And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends.
25And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
27And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
28And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
29Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?
30¶And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
31And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
32Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
33Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.

Gentiles Hear Good News​

34¶Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
37That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44¶While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

I posted Acts 10 so people could SEE the context. A righteous man, Cornelius (non-Jew), was recognized by God and called into holiness!!
ie Righteousness gets God's attention!!
THAT IS THE CONTEXT.

I read that as Cornelius was converted. Just because he was a soldier does not mean he wasn't. I read somewhere that there were objections about that happening to some. They did not leave their jobs.

Then he heard the full gospel calling him into theosis or ES and responded.

 

[Episkopos]

Peter saying that some of Paul’s writings are hard to understand does not support assigning meanings to Scripture that the text never gives. Peter’s warning was that “they that are unlearned and unstable wrest” those writings “unto their own destruction” (2 Peter 3:16). That is a warning against twisting difficult passages, not permission to discover hidden layers that cannot be demonstrated from Scripture.

Most people that read the bible today understand neither holiness nor righteousness. Consequently what comes from a reading of the bible is an unbalanced mess. Enter the devil who proclaims a falsehood that quickly gains popularity, that God permits to test those who are neither humble themselves, nor fear the Lord (and hate the truth), and a delusion (sent from God) quickly overtakes any proper understanding of the bible. To the extent where people can no longer tolerate a balanced and sound doctrine...as we see here and as is attested to in the bible.

I also agree that spiritual discernment is necessary.

What are you comparing a spiritual interpretation to? It has to be a first hand knowledge of God, and an experience IN DEPTH of the kingdom realm. Preferably a significant amount of time in God's immediate presence. Paul says...comparing spiritual things with spiritual things, IOW comparing what we read to what we EXPERIENCE in Christ. When these line up perfectly we know we are both reading the bible correctly...AND experiencing the God of the bible. That's what it means to compare.

But spiritual discernment does not replace the written Word as the standard. The Holy Spirit gives us understanding of what He inspired. He does not authorize us to add meanings that cannot be shown from the text.

What people don't see is any depth of meaning from the scriptures. Eyes that don't see and ears that don't hear. People take one verse so out of context and so improperly as to throw out major themes of the bible...and don't even bat an eye.

Parables do not prove Lizbeth’s interpretation either. When Jesus gave parables, the meaning belonged to Him, and He often explained that meaning to His disciples. The listener was not free to assign a spiritual meaning to every person, place, and detail.

I have not met very many who understand a parable that doesn't already line up with their previous indoctrination...and refuse to see the truth even when it is pointed out very plainly.

An example of this is the 2 cuts (double edged sword) or two levels of judgment for believers in Jesus in Mat 13... whereby the wheat is separated from the tares and vice-versa.

The first cut is to separate the sons of God from the world. The second cut is to separate the workers of iniquity from the saints (where MOST believers fail). And that's why I warn them. Look at how my warnings are received including yourself.

As an example you won't see it or admit that the bible says what it says...because it doesn't suit you. And that's just one bad understanding that basically everyone here fails to see...or fails to understand in its true significance. Do most people realize they are failing the grace of God? Of course not. They are waiting for the surprise at the end. No wisdom, no fear, no humility.

You appeal again to early church teaching, spiritually mature people, martyrs, and people who supposedly possessed deeper understanding. None of that answers the question. Martyrdom does not make someone’s interpretation inspired. Holiness does not make someone incapable of error.

Holiness is the perfection of Christ. But a person can still be tempted away from holiness by a lack of understanding of righteousness. The truth sets us free...but God continues to provide grace only to the humble.

Agreement among people who consider themselves spiritually mature does not establish biblical truth.

There is no agreement with modern believers because there is no common experience of God. It used to be that spiritual believers helped other believers No longer. People want to see others as being no farther along than they are due to pride. People have opinions and judge that others only have opinions as well. So no deeper understanding can be conveyed...due to indoctrination, a lack of honesty, and a religious hubris that they cling to even in the face of clear evidence from the bible.

The Bereans tested even the preaching of an apostle by the Scriptures: “They received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so” (Acts 17:11).

We need those kind of novices again. Proving ONLY what is from the bible...and not from a twisted interpretation...comparing bible with bible.

The issue is not whether Scripture has deep meaning. Of course it does. The issue is whether the proposed meaning actually comes from Scripture.

God has hidden things ....as it is written in the bible. He hides the truth from the shallow speculators and selfish investigators.

Where does Scripture say the wilderness generation represents the old man, their children represent the new man, Jordan represents a second work of grace, or Canaan represents entire sanctification? Neither difficult passages, spiritual discernment, church teachers, nor martyrs establish those claims.

The interpretation still must be shown from the Word of God.

You are citing the bible teaching without seeing the implications.

The two water crossings are indeed baptisms...the first from Egypt...the world and the second into the kingdom realm of the Spirit...the baptism of the Spirit,

This lines up perfectly with the rest of the bible. Tarry ye in Jerusalem...and the 2 cuts I mentioned earlier from Matt 13...with the parable of the wheat and the tares.

 

[Lizbeth]

I know we need the illumination of the Holy Spirit to understand Scripture. I have never denied that. But the Holy Spirit opens our understanding to what He has already revealed. He does not add new meanings to the text, change what the text says, or establish doctrines that cannot be shown from Scripture.

I can't respond to your every comment but yes. However, it doesn't mean everyone will see what the scripture is showing. The things that Jesus preached, the gospel, can be shown in OT scripture but it didn't mean that the religious leaders of Jesus' day could "see" those things in their scrips and accept them. Jesus spoke in parables but it didn't mean everyone could "see" and understand what His parables were depicting.

You know, I don't think we as Christians are going to have perfect agreement and unity until or unless the Body of Christ has become a "perfect man" and grown up into the full stature of Christ.

Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

 

[Hepzibah]

You know, I don't think we as Christians are going to have perfect agreement and unity until or unless the Body of Christ has become a "perfect man" and grown up into the full stature of Christ.

Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

There is unity when the perfect are together and know that each one has been given various illumination of the minor points. God created man to work as a team - a perfect one.