RIP?
- Thread starter Renniks
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Because I believe that when one dies they remain in the grave until the Lord's return, the peace referred to here is either emancipation from the worries and stresses of the world, or resting in anticipation and assurance of a blessed future.
If we merely die until the resurrection, then why would we have any consciousness whatsoever?
"For when David had served God's purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his fathers and his body decayed. (Acts 13:36).
I believe sleep is used to refer to the death of the body, not the soul.
According to the Old Testament, though the body enters the grave, the spirit enters Sheol, the realm of the dead. In Sheol they live a conscious existence.
"Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations. All of them will speak and say to you: "You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!" Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, and the sound of your harps; maggots are the bed beneath you, and worms are your covering (Isaiah 14:9-11).
"Now He is God not of the dead, but of the living; for to Him all of them are alive" (Luke 20:38).
Jesus corrected the idea of the Sadducees that the souls of former dead were non-existent. The final resurrection has not yet taken place, but Jesus said that they were still alive.
"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:18,19).
I know this passage is debated, but I believe it means Jesus preached to the " dead" who were fully conscious but in the realm of the Dead, hades or sheol.
I am hard pressed between the two: my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better (Philippians 1:23).
Would not conscious fellowship with the Lord in this life be far better than being unconscious in the next?
The Bible says the spirits of the righteous are already with the Lord.
and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect (Hebrews 12:23)
They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" (Revelation 6:10).
Not crying out from the grave, but in the Lord's presence.
I don't know why consciousness upon physical death is assumed? I don't believe so at all.
Entirely figurative, it has been personified in order to convey what, in essence, are the sentiments of those that have died - all things are equalized upon death. Just the fact that sheol is given animation, clearly denotes the non-literal application of the text.
The Sadducees did not accept the principle of a future resurrection, Jesus dispelled that belief by merely stating that God considers them to be alive, those that He will eventually raise from the dead. Many passages like this, where an assertion is made of an event that has not transpired, in anticipation (and faith) that it will invariably come to pass.
Over my head to figure this one out, ...but, it's too radical to use as proof-text for any argument. ...if Jesus preached to those in hades, is it possible that there would even be one lost soul from Adam to Jesus?
No one is judged before Judgment Day. Heaven is not being populated an an intermittent or sporadic pace. Hypothetically, those that are there waiting for their loved ones, would be quickly dismayed when they realize they never made it (sorrow in heaven?). Thus, when the Books are opened on the final Day, we will understand why some were saved and others were not.
I don't believe so, the depiction is of these saints being underneath the alter, not a feasible location. Again, this is figurative, as much as when God said when Cain slew Abel, '...The voice of your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground.'. God knows when a single bird falls from the sky (Matthew 10:29), thus, he knows when an injustice has been perpetrated - Abel's blood did not speak to God, his unrighteous death figuratively did.
To me, the quintessential passage on the state of the physically dead (didactic and explicit), in the entire Scriptures, is the following:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
4:13. But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
And there is also these:
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
5:9. For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10. who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
John 5:28-29
5:28. "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29. and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Daniel 12:2-2
12:2. "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
Matthew 27:52-53
27:52. The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53. and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23
15:20. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
15:51. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52. in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Hebrews 9:27-27
9:27. And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
1 Corinthians 15:6-6
15:6. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
etc....
...really, 6 or 7 points in favour of your position, and you weren't trying to substantiate your view?
You're very hard to read?
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