That's an interesting list.
I've read that
1&2Kings
1&2Chronicles
Are very contradictory.
And too many are using Ecclesiastes to form doctrine about the state of the dead.
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Ripped and Torn - What pages have you torn out of your Bible?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
- Start date
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I've read that
1&2Kings
1&2Chronicles
Are very contradictory.
And too many are using Ecclesiastes to form doctrine about the state of the dead.
[
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Ooo, I can't pass up that challenge. I blame you for that.
A prophet is just a mouthpiece for God. How do you know they weren't acting as a spokesperson for God?
For that matter, was Matthew, Mark, or Luke a prophet? I might give you John, if the author who wrote the Gospel of John is the same person as St. John the Divine who wrote Revelation.
Now that I think about it, being inspired by God to write something would effectively make that person a "mouthpiece for God", i.e. Prophet, almost by definition, wouldn't it?
See what you made me do? You made me think. This is all your fault!
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Ritajanice
Born-Again
Ritajanice
Born-Again
@St. SteVen ..look at this scripture in context .
Then look at the bold part, that I underlined?
Quite a few on this forum have used this out of text verse, in their defence , here it is, I also underlined it..
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
They leave the most important part out.as we see below..that’s why we must know our Bible.
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
What does God say about the natural man?
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Then look at the bold part, that I underlined?
Quite a few on this forum have used this out of text verse, in their defence , here it is, I also underlined it..
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
They leave the most important part out.as we see below..that’s why we must know our Bible.
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
What does God say about the natural man?
1 Corinthians 2:14
King James Version
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discernedRomans 1
King James Version
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
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Most often I see them latch onto the phrase "they are without excuse" and ignore the rest.
Usually in response to my question about those who haven't heard the gospel.
As if recognizing the creator God is somehow a gospel presentation in itself.
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You would never do that, right? Actually tear pages out of your Bible. ???
But how many of us do it in our minds by claiming someone else's view is "UNBIBLICAL"!
Might as well have torn that one out of your Bible.
View attachment 51580
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But how many of us do it in our minds by claiming someone else's view is "UNBIBLICAL"!
Might as well have torn that one out of your Bible.
View attachment 51580
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Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
This post is 7 months old. How did I miss this til now? lol
The books I listed don't do that. If we look at them, we can find some other purpose for the book, a purpose that comes from... well, not God.
Numbers, Joshua, Judges, 1&2Kings, and 1&2Chronicles all appear to have been written/edited/redacted by the same person. The very clear purpose of these books is to record the history of the kings of Judah and Israel. Textual evidence within the books says that history was written 400+ years after those kings lived, and that whoever edited it had an agenda to make Judah look good, make Israel look bad, and to minimize the contributions of the Kenites. That agenda isn't God's - it belongs to the post-exile King of Judah.
The purpose of Esther is to record the origins of the holiday Purim, but the events there appear to be mythological rather than historical. Textually, it appears the story has its origins in a Babylonian myth, with the two main characters (Esther, Mordecai) taking their names from the main Babylon gods (Ishtar, Marduk), and serving in their typical roles - as consort and advisor to the great king.
Proverbs and Ecclesiastes are written by Solomon, who at the time of writing was an apostate and evil king. The purpose of Proverbs is to record all the wisdom of the great king Solomon. The purpose of Ecclesiastes is to decry all the wisdom of Solomon as being useless. You see the problem there?
Proverbs includes some decidedly non-Jewish and non-Christian doctrines, including the anthropomorphization of an aspect of God (Wisdom), which is Emanationism or proto-Gnosticism. Not everything there is wrong, but Solomon does not write Proverbs from a perspective of "God says..."
As for Ecclesiastes, if one follows what is said there in context, Solomon is laying out examples of his wisdom and showing THAT THEY FAIL. Thus, almost any verse that is plucked out-of-context from the book and presented as true, actually proves THE OPPOSITE. Basically, the book literally tells us it isn't inspired and its statements aren't even correct, excepting the singular thesis of the book - that human wisdom fails.
The purpose for Leviticus is to serve as a handbook for the Levitical priesthood. Leviticus is admittedly controversial, since at first glance it DOES appear to be written by a prophet - Moses. It also contains a bunch of statements of "God says."
I have come to believe that the book was penned well after Moses death by the corrupt priesthood of the sons of Aaron, who seem to have done so in opposition to the priesthood of the sons of Moses. More could be said, but is off-topic here. If you want to know, try searching up "Mushite priesthood," particularly as it deals with their dealings with the Aaronic priesthood and the Tribe of Dan.
Mark was a disciple of Peter. He isn't an apostle or prophet, but he knew one and (supposedly) wrote down an account of what Peter said.
Luke, by his own testimony, searched things out and interviewed witnesses to create his account. He is neither an apostle or prophet. He spent time with Paul (an apostle but not of the 12). However, so much of what he wrote overlaps Mark and Matthew that it's hard not to accord it the same status. Indeed, when the church went to canonize gospels, their logic was basically, "we can't NOT put it in, it's the most ancient and accepted text we have, no matter who wrote it."
**David never claims to be a prophet, but Acts 2 specifically names him as one.
Largely based on the text itself. The prophets claim to be prophets.** They say, "the word of the Lord came to me" or "thus saith the Lord" or "I had a vision" or "I was in the Spirit" or something similar to indicate that the purpose of the book is to deliver God's message.
The books I listed don't do that. If we look at them, we can find some other purpose for the book, a purpose that comes from... well, not God.
Numbers, Joshua, Judges, 1&2Kings, and 1&2Chronicles all appear to have been written/edited/redacted by the same person. The very clear purpose of these books is to record the history of the kings of Judah and Israel. Textual evidence within the books says that history was written 400+ years after those kings lived, and that whoever edited it had an agenda to make Judah look good, make Israel look bad, and to minimize the contributions of the Kenites. That agenda isn't God's - it belongs to the post-exile King of Judah.
The purpose of Esther is to record the origins of the holiday Purim, but the events there appear to be mythological rather than historical. Textually, it appears the story has its origins in a Babylonian myth, with the two main characters (Esther, Mordecai) taking their names from the main Babylon gods (Ishtar, Marduk), and serving in their typical roles - as consort and advisor to the great king.
Proverbs and Ecclesiastes are written by Solomon, who at the time of writing was an apostate and evil king. The purpose of Proverbs is to record all the wisdom of the great king Solomon. The purpose of Ecclesiastes is to decry all the wisdom of Solomon as being useless. You see the problem there?
Proverbs includes some decidedly non-Jewish and non-Christian doctrines, including the anthropomorphization of an aspect of God (Wisdom), which is Emanationism or proto-Gnosticism. Not everything there is wrong, but Solomon does not write Proverbs from a perspective of "God says..."
As for Ecclesiastes, if one follows what is said there in context, Solomon is laying out examples of his wisdom and showing THAT THEY FAIL. Thus, almost any verse that is plucked out-of-context from the book and presented as true, actually proves THE OPPOSITE. Basically, the book literally tells us it isn't inspired and its statements aren't even correct, excepting the singular thesis of the book - that human wisdom fails.
The purpose for Leviticus is to serve as a handbook for the Levitical priesthood. Leviticus is admittedly controversial, since at first glance it DOES appear to be written by a prophet - Moses. It also contains a bunch of statements of "God says."
I have come to believe that the book was penned well after Moses death by the corrupt priesthood of the sons of Aaron, who seem to have done so in opposition to the priesthood of the sons of Moses. More could be said, but is off-topic here. If you want to know, try searching up "Mushite priesthood," particularly as it deals with their dealings with the Aaronic priesthood and the Tribe of Dan.
Matthew and John are apostles. By tradition, the apostles are accorded the same authority as prophets.
Mark was a disciple of Peter. He isn't an apostle or prophet, but he knew one and (supposedly) wrote down an account of what Peter said.
Luke, by his own testimony, searched things out and interviewed witnesses to create his account. He is neither an apostle or prophet. He spent time with Paul (an apostle but not of the 12). However, so much of what he wrote overlaps Mark and Matthew that it's hard not to accord it the same status. Indeed, when the church went to canonize gospels, their logic was basically, "we can't NOT put it in, it's the most ancient and accepted text we have, no matter who wrote it."
And you have made me write a small book.
**David never claims to be a prophet, but Acts 2 specifically names him as one.
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Interesting post. Thanks.
It sent me to the book of Hosea to reread the Minor Prophets.
The first time I read the Prophets, I knew I didn't want to be one.
It seems to me that they were miserable. Who would invite such a life?
But something happened to me recently. You may have read my post and explanation.
I can post them again if you missed them and want to read them.
In short, I received a message to deliver.
And I took the responsibility to be faithful to the God who gave me the message.
In the context of the moment, the message was completely off-the-wall.
But I knew who it was from and where it came from. No question.
It checked out scriptural, so I delivered the message to the bewildered recipient.
I remembered the message word-for-word.
Which further confirmed for me that it was more than a passing thought.
Anyway. I wanted you to know that your post is pushing me forward.
To where, I have no idea.
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I should add that I didn't get dramatic about the message I had to deliver.
I told the recipient when the message had come to me and that (I thought) it was from the Lord.
It was a puzzle piece. It was up to her to determine whether it was fitting or not.
I haven't heard one way or the other. But, I did my part. I don't need to do anything more.
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Behold
Well-Known Member
What does the Bible say about the words in The Bible?
And for the believer born again, who loves the words in the bible.........is going to taste God's "riches in glory".
It is a fact of Christianty that Loving God and loving God's word... is eternally connected.
The words in the Holy Bible are more then just words......and the Bible is more is just a book.
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And for the believer born again, who loves the words in the bible.........is going to taste God's "riches in glory".
It is a fact of Christianty that Loving God and loving God's word... is eternally connected.
The words in the Holy Bible are more then just words......and the Bible is more is just a book.
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| They are more precious than gold, than much pure gold; they are sweeter than honey, than honey from the honeycomb. New Living Translation They are more desirable than gold, even the finest gold. They are sweeter than honey, even honey dripping from the comb. English Standard Version More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb. Berean Standard Bible They are more precious than gold, than much pure gold; they are sweeter than honey, than honey from the comb. King James Bible More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. New King James Version More to be desired are they than gold, Yea, than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. New American Standard Bible They are more desirable than gold, yes, than much pure gold; Sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb. NASB 1995 They are more desirable than gold, yes, than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the drippings of the honeycomb. NASB 1977 They are more desirable than gold, yes, than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the drippings of the honeycomb. Legacy Standard Bible They are more desirable than gold, even more than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the drippings of the honeycomb. Amplified Bible They are more desirable than gold, yes, than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the drippings of the honeycomb. Christian Standard Bible They are more desirable than gold — than an abundance of pure gold; and sweeter than honey dripping from a honeycomb. Holman Christian Standard Bible They are more desirable than gold— than an abundance of pure gold; and sweeter than honey, which comes from the honeycomb. American Standard Version More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the droppings of the honeycomb. Contemporary English Version They are worth more than the finest gold and are sweeter than honey from a honeycomb. English Revised Version More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. GOD'S WORD® Translation They are more desirable than gold, even the finest gold. They are sweeter than honey, even the drippings from a honeycomb. Good News Translation They are more desirable than the finest gold; they are sweeter than the purest honey. International Standard Version They are more desirable than gold, even much fine gold. They are sweeter than honey, even the drippings from a honeycomb. NET Bible They are of greater value than gold, than even a great amount of pure gold; they bring greater delight than honey, than even the sweetest honey from a honeycomb. New Heart English Bible More to be desired are they than gold, yes, than much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and the extract of the honeycomb. Webster's Bible Translation More to be desired are they than gold, yes, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honey-comb. |
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Hosea had it worse than most, but yeah...
I started out in a Charismatic church. I'm credulous of continuing gifts of prophecy and tongues and everything else, because I've seen them firsthand. I don't think every instance is authentic - there's clearly some weirdness going on with tongues in a lot of churches. But... the church really needs to DO more, and perhaps TEACH less.
Yes, that's the tough question for Charismatics and Pentecostals.
Do I walk away because of the abuses, or stay around to see that it's done right?
It's still a pioneering work to regain what was lost.
Prophecy takes on a different character in the New Testament.
1 Corinthians 14:2-4 NIV
For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God.
Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.
3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.
4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.
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Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Seeing-that-it's-done-right is difficult. Many messages would be difficult to judge in the moment, to say whether it was really from God or not. Who wants to be the one to say, "that's not from God"? Not me.
In the church of my youth, prophecy and tongues were fairly common. But there was skepticism for any message that was not confirmed by a second person. A prophecy required a second person to prophecy to confirm it. A prophetic message that didn't include words from the Bible was suspicious. A public message in tongues required a translator. If there was no translation, that was thought to be shameful. If the translator was the same person who delivered the original message, eyebrows were raised.
"By the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses" was softly enforced. Nobody was told to sit down and shut up if they delivered a public message, but if there was no confirmation, the congregation quietly didn't believe you.
*Private use of prayer in tongues was not subject to the same scrutiny.
Paul makes it sound so nice. The majority of messages that I've seen that I would regard as REAL were closer to the ones in the Old Testament - "get your act together, bad times are coming, you won't survive if you don't mature beyond what you are now."
New Topic.
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How does your life experience inform your theology and doctrines?
On another thread I made this observation: "I find it interesting that our life experience informs our theology and doctrines." The person I was speaking with had a completely different life experience than mine. And these experiences had shaped their theology and doctrines. Have you given...
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