Robots and Will Worshipers

[DNB]

You said, "nothing spectacular in being sovereign, when you have everyone hard-wired to do your will".

My question for you is whether or not it is spectacular for God to do something when there is no one around Him that has a free will from Him.

If the answer to my question is negative, then it is necessarily not as spectacular as creating free-will agents. If the answer is positive, then it is not necessarily as spectacular as creating free-will agents.

My point is, when you say, "it is not as spectacular", you are not telling me whether it is spectacular in itself or not, which is precisely my question.

Both are spectacular, but one is more impressive than the other.

 

[Rudometkin]

Because of sin, WE limit our subsequent options.
God's being selective in His application of grace is not a violation of our beginning free will. Without it, we constantly paint ourselves into a corner. The end.

"For the wages of sin is death,

but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23 NKJV

That "free" gift has conditions to it. Namely, we surrender our will to Him.

Jesus said,

"For whoever desires to save his life will lose it,

but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it." Matthew 16:25 NKJV

Have you considered that free gift being Christ?

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Now do you think the sinner has power over the Father to leave His grasp?

Do you think God gives according to the sinner's heart? Is the sinner not reputed as nothing?

Daniel 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

 

[Sabertooth]

Have you considered that free gift being Christ?

He is certainly the Means for that gift.

 

[Rudometkin]

He is certainly the Means for that gift.

What is the gift?

 

[farouk]

What is the gift?

2 Corinthians 9.15 says: "Thanks be unto God for His unspeakable gift".

 

[Sabertooth]

What is the gift?

At least,

1. Freedom from the bondage & destruction of Sin.
2. Restoration to Christ-likeness, through His sanctification process.

 

[farouk]

@Rudometkin FYI:


"Blessed be God, our God,
Who gave for us His well-beloved Son,
The gift of gifts, all other gifts in one;
Blessed be God, our God!
2
What will He not bestow!
Who freely gave this mighty gift unbought,
Unmerited, unheeded, and unsought,
What will He not bestow?
3
He spared not His Son!
’Tis this that silences each rising fear,
’Tis this that bids the hard thought disappear;
He spared not His Son!
4
Who shall condemn us now?
Since Christ has died, and ris’n, and gone above,
For us to plead at the right hand of Love;
Who shall condemn us now?
5
’Tis God that justifies!
Who shall recall His pardon or His grace?
Or who the broken chain of guilt replace?
’Tis God that justifies!
6
The victory is ours!
For us in might came forth the mighty One;
For us He fought the fight, the triumph won:
The victory is ours!"

(Horatius Bonar, 1808-1889)

 

[Nancy]

What is the gift?

Isn't Christ Himself "the gift"?

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places in Christ (Ephesians 1:3).”

Ephesians 1:22
" 22 And God put all things under Christ’s feet, and gave Him to the church as head over all things"

 

[farouk]

Isn't Christ Himself "the gift"?

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places in Christ (Ephesians 1:3).”

Ephesians 1:22
" 22 And God put all things under Christ’s feet, and gave Him to the church as head over all things"

@Nancy Great verses there; and relevant to the discussion!

 

[farouk]

2 Samuel 24:1
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Psalm 145:17
The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.

@Rudometkin Relevant verses there, indeed, from different perspectives.

 

[Rudometkin]

Isn't Christ Himself "the gift"?

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places in Christ (Ephesians 1:3).”

Ephesians 1:22

" 22 And God put all things under Christ’s feet, and gave Him to the church as head over all things"

Precisely!

When God gives this free gift, it is according to His own will, and not the sinner.

- Daniel 4:35
- Ephesians 2:8
- Hebrews 12:2

 

[Rudometkin]

@Rudometkin Relevant verses there, indeed, from different perspectives.

Farouk, what do you think that collection of verses shows?

 

[farouk]

Farouk, what do you think that collection of verses shows?

@Rudometkin It shows God's sovereignty and His permissive will also; and the fact that He continues to work His purposes.

Interestingly, the Lord Jesus in John chapter 6 speaks of both human responsibility and divine sovereignty. The fact that one exists does not negate the other.

 

[Rudometkin]

@Rudometkin It shows God's sovereignty and His permissive will also; and the fact that He continues to work His purposes.

Interestingly, the Lord Jesus in John chapter 6 speaks of both human responsibility and divine sovereignty. The fact that one exists does not negate the other.

I figure man is held responsible precisely because God is sovereign and man is not.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by His permissive will?

 

[Rudometkin]

No, I cannot find you any Scripture that explicitly states that God has asked us to do something, outside of our capability, and that he will kill us if we don't comply.
But, there is Scripture that states how feasible and attainable God's precepts are;

Romans 10:5-11
10:5. For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6. But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7. or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8. But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9. that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10. for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11. For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

I believe I'm asking you for the opposite of what you think I'm asking you.

If we were capable of achieving what God demands of us, then did we need Christ for salvation?

Is Christ not necessary, or is man helpless? When man is helpless, does God lower His Standard? or remain steadfast and Glorify Himself? Did He take away the law for us, or did He achieve something for us that we could not?

Why is Christ the only way?

 

[Rudometkin]

Both are spectacular, but one is more impressive than the other.

How can it be spectacular for God to do something without free will of others, when there is nothing spectacular about doing something without free will of others?

Am I misunderstanding something in your position?

I believe you vilified God's sovereignty in favor of free will earlier.

 

[farouk]

I figure man is held responsible precisely because God is sovereign and man is not.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by His permissive will?

@Rudometkin

Permissive: What He allows, which may not be the same as what He has revealed as His will, but the course of which, allowed by Him, will redound to His glory and purpose. "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." (Romans 8.28)

 

[Rudometkin]

@Rudometkin

Permissive: What He allows, which may not be the same as what He has revealed as His will, but the course of which, allowed by Him, will redound to His glory and purpose. "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." (Romans 8.28)

Thanks, I appreciate your straightforward answer. If you are willing to bear with me, I will fill in a blank and you will let me know if you think whether or not it is accurate.

That would be, a plan that God didn't create originated in something He did create, and approached Him by means of His creation, and He allowed what it desired, and this is how it would be possible for Him to merely permit and not determine something. Is that correct, or even roughly correct?

If you are not willing to delve into this, then I understand. I admit that I am taking a shot in the dark here, anyway.

 

[farouk]

Thanks, I appreciate your straightforward answer. If you are willing to bear with me, I will fill in a blank and you will let me know if you think whether or not it is accurate.

That would be, a plan that God didn't create originated in something He did create, and approached Him by means of His creation, and He allowed what it desired, and this is how it would be possible for Him to merely permit and not determine something. Is that correct, or even roughly correct?

If you are not willing to delve into this, then I understand. I admit that I am taking a shot in the dark here, anyway.

@Rudometkin Depends exactly how you understand the words, really. It's often good to start with Scripture, then meditate and discuss it.

 

[Nancy]

@Rudometkin

Permissive: What He allows, which may not be the same as what He has revealed as His will, but the course of which, allowed by Him, will redound to His glory and purpose. "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." (Romans 8.28)

I see His permissive will to be where, say, someone eats too much, or someone is a smoker, or someone is into dangerous sports like, rock and mountain climbing, race cars, skateboarding on crazy steep hills...all of these can kill us so...even though they are not sins per say, anything that could harm us or potentially harm us may be fine as far as sin goes but, not all things are the smart choice