Robots and Will Worshipers

[DNB]

Relative to our conversation, it means that God commands man to do something that man is incapable of doing.

In itself it means that Jesus is not mere man.

What are you waiting for to take place?

Those two extremely crucial points, Adam and all his progeny were human, Jesus is not. This answers a lot about your Christology, but, unfortunately, is ludicrous.
I'm not going to ask exactly what ontology, according to yourself, that Christ has, for fear that this conversation will get unduly protracted beyond its worth.
Thanks anyhow!

 

[Rudometkin]

Those two extremely crucial points, Adam and all his progeny were human, Jesus is not. This answers a lot about your Christology, but, unfortunately, is ludicrous.

It's ludicrous that Christ is not mere man and that it is impossible for man alone to be saved?

 

[kcnalp]

How did Jesus succeed in fulfilling God's Law?

He lived without sinning.

 

[farouk]

Yes, and God commands men to do something that they are unable to do. God commands men to obey His law, yet Jesus teaches that this is outside of our capability.

@Rudometkin This reveals indeed that we need the Gospel of the grace of God. "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3.24-26)

 

[DNB]

It's ludicrous that Christ is not mere man and that it is impossible for man alone to be saved?

Well then, explain in a non-ludicrous manner, how Jesus was not a mere man? What was he, a hybrid, a bastardization of something, and angel in disguise, a figment of our imaginations, ...?

 

[DNB]

He lived without sinning.

Of course, 200% agreed, but Rudo is saying that it's impossible for man to have free-will, and thus, authentically obey God perfectly.

 

[Rudometkin]

Well then, explain in a non-ludicrous manner, how Jesus was not a mere man? What was he, a hybrid, a bastardization of something, and angel in disguise, a figment of our imaginations, ...?

Ignoring questions looks fun, let me try:

If we were capable of achieving what God demands of us, then did we need Christ for salvation?

Is Christ not necessary, or is man helpless? When man is helpless, does God lower His Standard? or remain steadfast and Glorify Himself? Did He take away the law for us, or did He achieve something for us that we could not?

Why is Christ the only way?

 

[farouk]

Why is Christ the only way?

@Rudometkin This is not a question I ask. The fact that it's clearly revealed that He is (John 14.6; 1 Timothy 2.5) is an excellence basis for continued thinking; the fact itself is not something I would call into question. (I know you may only be speaking hypothetically.)

 

[kcnalp]

Of course, 200% agreed, but Rudo is saying that it's impossible for man to have free-will, and thus, authentically obey God perfectly.

It is indeed impossible. That's why we need a sinless Savior, Jesus. We are sinners.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ronald, do you figure my question wasn't worth answering?

I thought I was giving an answer.

Right, so we have our being by His power.

Absolutely! without Him, we do not exist.

Of course these choices we make cannot be apart from what He determined, because we have our being by His power.

Or, do you suggest we control His power for Him so that we live according to ourselves?

That is incorrerct.

If you are speaking of predestination then only the believer is predestined! We will be conformed to the image of Jesus and we are saved etc.etc.etc. But we still have the ability to cooperate with god or not! The not is called sin.

Both of your options are wrong on the personal level. God has given man volition ( I define that as separate from free will for reasons that are for another thread). We can choose what to wear, what car to buy, what to eat etc.etc. We are free to live our lives- hopefully in a godly way! If God wishes for us to wear a specific outfit or eat a specific breakfast etc. He will let us know- other wise those decisions are mans to make in keeping with His Inspired Word!

Man was designed to live for God! He gives us instructions. Just like an employer- . YOu are taught what to do and how to conduct yourself as an employee under their hiring, and then they let you do the job. that is an imperfect example, but I believe it gets the concept across.

 

[Rudometkin]

I thought I was giving an answer.

I see. I was merely asking a question that required a 'yes' or 'no' to be satisfied.

Absolutely! without Him, we do not exist.

Right.

That is incorrerct.

If you are speaking of predestination then only the believer is predestined! We will be conformed to the image of Jesus and we are saved etc.etc.etc. But we still have the ability to cooperate with god or not! The not is called sin.

Both of your options are wrong on the personal level. God has given man volition ( I define that as separate from free will for reasons that are for another thread). We can choose what to wear, what car to buy, what to eat etc.etc. We are free to live our lives- hopefully in a godly way! If God wishes for us to wear a specific outfit or eat a specific breakfast etc. He will let us know- other wise those decisions are mans to make in keeping with His Inspired Word!

Man was designed to live for God! He gives us instructions. Just like an employer- . YOu are taught what to do and how to conduct yourself as an employee under their hiring, and then they let you do the job. that is an imperfect example, but I believe it gets the concept across.

Of course, our thoughts are not without His provision, since, without Him we have no existence.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Of course, our thoughts are not without His provision, since, without Him we have no existence.

If by that you mean He has allowed us to think for ourselves- the answer is yes. But every thought has its consequences either good or bad.

 

[farouk]

If by that you mean He has allowed us to think for ourselves- the answer is yes. But every thought has its consequences either good or bad.

Philippians 4.8 implies that the way we think indeed involves an active, Godly exercise.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Philippians 4.8 implies that the way we think indeed involves an active, Godly exercise.

Well yes! But we have to think it! It is part and parcel of presenting ourselves as living sacrifices!

We have to base all our actions based on how we think in response to situations. As believers we can choose Godliness or self. The world only chooses wrong.

 

[DNB]

Ignoring questions looks fun, let me try:

If we were capable of achieving what God demands of us, then did we need Christ for salvation?

Is Christ not necessary, or is man helpless? When man is helpless, does God lower His Standard? or remain steadfast and Glorify Himself? Did He take away the law for us, or did He achieve something for us that we could not?

Why is Christ the only way?

Ok, great question. Again, the Law was implemented for 1500yrs+-, therefore we trust that this was not a superfluous exercise on God's part merely to toy with our faculties, making us believe that we could achieve something that intrinsically, we could not. God demanded obedience, and condemned man accordingly for their failure to do so. Therefore, we do not charge God with both a frivolous institution of a Law, and a sadistic penalty upon transgression of the Law. Thus, the both Law and its enactment was righteous. And, its purpose was to reveal the hearts of man, not the ontology or inherent capacity of man, ...which, again, by implication, it delineates or potential capability to do what's right, as the Law would not have been implemented otherwise.

So now, since it is our corporeal bodies (flesh) that arouses and entices us to sin, and due to lack of wisdom of the vices and hedonism of the flesh, we succumb to its allurements, we recognize that it is by our own volition that we violates God's Will. Therefore, man needs a saviour, ...but only for those who are willing to recognize and acknowledge this (this is the volitional part again).

Therefore, Christ did not die for all, as in universalism. For, if we were incapable of choosing the good, then mutually we would be incapable of choosing Christ, and since Christ is God's plan for all, then all would be saved. But, in actuality, man is free to choose good, and free to chose Christ, for all are not saved.

Romans 7:13-25
7:13. Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful. 14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23. but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

 

[DNB]

It is indeed impossible. That's why we need a sinless Savior, Jesus. We are sinners.

We are going in circles now (like always with you). AGAIN, how did Christ do it?????

 

[Renniks]

Then why is Christ the Author and Finisher of our faith

Because we are convicted by the Spirit first, and Christ's blood is what actually saves us. I think you are misinterpreting that verse. It doesn't say Christ belived for us.

 

[Renniks]

There is no 'easier' work for God. No limit is pure power with no resistance.

Are you sure about that? Do you think that the incarnation was effortless for God?

 

[Timtofly]

Discuss support and implications of the two opposing doctrines regarding 'Free Will' and 'Determinism' below.

Free Will: Man has the power to think on his own apart from God.

Determinism: God controls all things.

Free will does not involve the creation of thought. It is the lack of coercion. There is no original thought, which means you are safe in knowing our thoughts will not destroy what God has created. Is limiting knowledge a form of coercion? How would we know? Satan lied to Eve and said God was withholding information. Did Eve feel coercion by Satan to eat? Did Eve feel coercion by God not to eat?

 

[Rudometkin]

[Part 1]

Ok, great question. Again, the Law was implemented for 1500yrs+-, therefore we trust that this was not a superfluous exercise on God's part merely to toy with our faculties, making us believe that we could achieve something that intrinsically, we could not. God demanded obedience, and condemned man accordingly for their failure to do so. Therefore, we do not charge God with both a frivolous institution of a Law, and a sadistic penalty upon transgression of the Law. Thus, the both Law and its enactment was righteous. And, its purpose was to reveal the hearts of man, not the ontology or inherent capacity of man, ...which, again, by implication, it delineates or potential capability to do what's right, as the Law would not have been implemented otherwise.

You straight up determine God's righteousness according to your judgement.

"We do not charge God. As a result of this, His work is righteous."

Do you think that is man-centered?

You say you trust God that He is not toying with your faculties in commanding men to uphold the law for at least about 1,500 years, but there are atleast three issues with this.

1. God does not promise that He does not toy with your faculties, so your trust appears to be on thin ice to begin with.

2. God does toy with your faculties, in the sense that He provides the existence of your faculties according to His purpose.

3. God upholds the law in order to Glorify Himself. The law is the schoolmaster that leads to Christ.

The law isn't as much about you as you seem to think it is.