Romans 6:9-11

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Alethos

New Member
Mar 8, 2011
685
4
0
Melbourne Australia
Hello fellow believer,

I am undertaking this short study from the works of a man long dead and asleep in Christ. In many ways this is a study of a study, which I wish to look into in some detail. I will be making notes and testing the scriptures to check their validity and over time I hope to gain a greater understanding of Jesus Christ and the work performed in him. And maybe someone out there may also gain deeper insight into Jesus Christ.

We find Romans Chapter 6 is all about how sinful beings such as ourselves can identify with the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. This chapter is an integral part of our faith. Paul is emphatic about the nature of Christ and our relationship in him and in his offering.

Some scriptures can be offensive as they take us to places we do often desire to go, both in our understanding and way of life. Some scriptures are so powerful they can change us forever...I believe Romans 6 is one such passage of scripture.

I pray this short study in three verses will help in better understand the real Jesus Christ. I am looking forward to digging deeper into its meaning and I hope you can join me?

Rom 6:9 "Knowing that Christ, being raised from the dead, dieth no more"

His resurrection to immortality was the divine seal of his perfect offering. He was "brought again from the dead... through the blood of the everlasting covenant" (Heb. 13:20), so that death now has no further claim over him, nor is there any need for him to offer himself again. His sacrifice was final and complete, fulfilling all the terms of the Mosaic figures, and by which he "obtained eternal redemption" Heb.9:12.

In his offering he removed the law of condemnation for himself, by which his nature was purged of its former impurities, and made of the same nature as the Deity.

"Death hath no more dominion over him" The Diaglott has: "death no longer lords it over him".

While he was mortal, the Lord was subject to temptation, but struggled against its power successfully (Heb. 5:7). But that no longer applies! Christ is no longer in the realm's of death; Death does not reign over him, nor threaten him with its power (see Rom. 5:21). The Bible teaches that Immortality takes a person beyond the power of death, and is therefore held to be the great victory of faith (Jn. 3:15; 10:28; 17:2; 1 Tim. 6:19).

"For in that he died" This was not a mere death, but a sacrificial offering. Death, of itself, implies the victory of sin, but the perfect offering of the Lord was a challenge to sin, and it was by "that death" (Rom. 6:4) that he destroyed the diabolos (Heb. 2:14). "He died unto sin" Christ was thus in some way related to sin, but inasmuch as he did not sin, this can only refer to the flesh. This shows conclusively that the "sin" in question is not actual transgression, but the propensities which were resident in his nature. Christ's death upon the cross was only a public demonstration of what he did figuratively in his daily life, by submitting to the will of the Father, and refusing his nature to exercise its power over him in any degree. Christ's crucifixion foreshadowed or demonstrated what his followers must do, for they, too, must "die unto sin" (Rom 6:2). Thus Jesus was "made sin" (2 Cor. 5:21) by birth into the human race; he appeared in the "likeness of sinful flesh" (Rom. 8:3) that all the power of the flesh might be defeated in him; he was sacrificed "for sin" (Rom 8:3; and Heb 10:8- 9,18; 10:26; 13:11 that thereby Jesus might exonerate himself and his brethren.

"Once" The Greek ephapax should be rendered "once for all" (RSV). The Greek is emphatic, that the perfect offering of Christ was satisfactory in all respects; it has no need to be repeated. He provided the one sacrifice for sin which could completely take away its effect. Under the law, the priests were required to make continual offerings for sins, because it was impossible to fully overcome sin. Daily offerings for sin were legislated, constant individual sacrifices were demanded as sin continued to work in the lives of worshippers. On the yearly Day of Atonement the high priest had to demonstrate in the progression of sacrifices he was required to offer, that both he and the nation were under the domination of sin, and were unable, because of sin, to overcome its power. Thus, he offered two sacrifices: one for himself, and one for the people he represented (Lev 9:7; 12:1-7; 16:6,11-15; 23:29; Heb. 5:1,2,3). But, since the priest was himself a sinner, his sacrifice for himself could never fully expiate himself, and he had, therefore, to offer repeatedly. Christ was greater than the priesthood of Moses, for although he had need to offer for his own cleansing, being associated with the sinful condition of his people (1 Pet. 2:24) his perfect obedience ensured his resurrection to immortality, and he had no further need of sacrifice. Thus, Paul comments that Jesus "needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once (Gr. ephapax), when he offered up himself Heb. 7:27. This was achieved when, through his sacrifice, he "entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption" Heb 9:12). The perfection of his offering enabled divine nature to be revealed in flesh, and to accomplish the removal of "sin" (human nature) in himself: "now once in the end of the world (age) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself (Rom 6:26). As his people, we achieve sanctification through the "offering of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all (ephapax)" (Heb 10:10).

Unlike that of Lazarus, Christ's resurrection precludes the possibility of his dying again. He became the first of Adam's race to be resurrected to life eternal. Therefore his death, instead of being a sign of the victory of sin over man, was a sign of the complete overthrow and conquest of Sin in a singularly decisive engagement on the stake. The serpentnature was "crushed" on the head (Gen. 3:15, Roth.). The Goliath-like force which has attacked mankind since the transgression of Adam, was finally and absolutely defeated in the Lord Jesus Christ Heb. 2:14. "But in that he liveth" The use of the present tense has a sense of victory and achievement. He is no longer dead! The whole evidence of the apostles' disbelief following the Lord's crucifixion confirms the fact. Against their own inclinations and convictions at that time (note the repetition of the phrase "believed not" in Mark 16), the fact of Christ's resurrection could not be ignored. He "appeared unto the eleven... and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart" (Mark 16:14); he allowed Thomas to observe the evidence of his wounds (Jn. 20:26-27); he "shewed himself alive after his passion (suffering) by many infallible proofs" (Acts 1:3), so that there could be no mistake as to the victory over Sin that had been achieved. Later, John confirmed his experience: "The life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us"(Jn. 1:1-2). "He liveth unto God" For Christ, death is a past event, never to be repeated. The Lord now is of divine nature, having "entered within the veil" and being constituted a high priest "after the order of Melchizedek" (Heb. 6:19-20). The word "unto" is translated "by" in the Diaglott, twice in this verse. There were two powers existing in Jesus during his term of mortal service: sin and righteousness. He possessed "sin's flesh," and because of that principle in his nature, he "died by Sin," used here by metonymy for human nature (i.e., because of its power in his nature). But now he "liveth by God" (being raised by the righteousness and power of God: Acts 2:24). The contest between sin and righteousness, which originated in the Edenic transgression, has now been settled in Christ; he is the victor, but that victory came only because "God was in Christ" (2 Cor 5:19), and because the Master gave himself totally to fulfilling his Father's will. Thus, he overcame "with strong crying and tears... though he were a Son yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered" (Heb. 5:7-8).
 

Foreigner

New Member
Apr 14, 2010
2,583
123
0
I don't get a lot of time online during my busy day.

Is there perhaps a Reader's Digest Condensed Version of what you are trying to say.

I have no desire to read multiple paragraphs just to see if I MIGHT be interested in what is being said.
 

Alethos

New Member
Mar 8, 2011
685
4
0
Melbourne Australia
I don't get a lot of time online during my busy day.

Is there perhaps a Reader's Digest Condensed Version of what you are trying to say.

I have no desire to read multiple paragraphs just to see if I MIGHT be interested in what is being said.

"He died unto sin"

Good morning Foreigner,

It is true many do not have the time to look "deep" enough into the life of the Master. Many Christians glaze over the important verses which offer real life for those gems that lie on the surface.

When we read passages like Rom 6:9,10,11 we see clearly that Christ was in "some" way related to sin, but no personal sin for whcih he is responsible, this sin can only relate to the flesh.

It is essential you understand this "sin" is not actual transgression, but the propensities which were resident in his nature . Christ's death upon the cross was only a public demonstration of what he did figuratively in his daily life, by submitting to the will of the Father, and refusing his nature to exercise its power over him in any degree. Christ's crucifixion foreshadowed or demonstrated what his followers must do, for they, too, must "die unto sin" (Rom 6:2). Thus Jesus was "made sin" (2 Cor. 5:21) by birth into the human race; he appeared in the "likeness of sinful flesh" (Rom. 8:3) that all the power of the flesh might be defeated in him; he was sacrificed "for sin" (Rom 8:3; and Heb 10:8- 9,18; 10:26; 13:11 that thereby Jesus might exonerate himself and his brethren.

Forienger, if you believed this truth concerning Jesus Christ the very foundation of your faith would no doubt change, but many are not willing to go there!

The Apostle Paul did...will you?

Alethos
 

Alethos

New Member
Mar 8, 2011
685
4
0
Melbourne Australia


"He died unto sin"

Good morning Foreigner,

It is true many do not have the time to look "deep" enough into the life of the Master. Many Christians glaze over the important verses which offer real life for those gems that lie on the surface.

When we read passages like Rom 6:9,10,11 we see clearly that Christ was in "some" way related to sin, but no personal sin for whcih he is responsible, this sin can only relate to the flesh.

It is essential you understand this "sin" is not actual transgression, but the propensities which were resident in his nature . Christ's death upon the cross was only a public demonstration of what he did figuratively in his daily life, by submitting to the will of the Father, and refusing his nature to exercise its power over him in any degree. Christ's crucifixion foreshadowed or demonstrated what his followers must do, for they, too, must "die unto sin" (Rom 6:2). Thus Jesus was "made sin" (2 Cor. 5:21) by birth into the human race; he appeared in the "likeness of sinful flesh" (Rom. 8:3) that all the power of the flesh might be defeated in him; he was sacrificed "for sin" (Rom 8:3; and Heb 10:8- 9,18; 10:26; 13:11 that thereby Jesus might exonerate himself and his brethren.

Forienger, if you believed this truth concerning Jesus Christ the very foundation of your faith would no doubt change, but many are not willing to go there!

The Apostle Paul did...will you?

Alethos

Read and understand.
 

martinlawrencescott

Servant Prince
Apr 6, 2011
344
12
0
35
Ventura, California
Ducky and Truth, you guys don't get along. Ducky, you continuously banter Truth wherever he posts, which doesn't get across your point any better than a single post. Truth, for some reason you entertain him, as though it will somehow strengthen whatever point you're trying to make by trying to make him look foolish. I've seen it thread after thread, and it takes over and rabbit trails. Maybe either of you would like to try fasting (abstaining from) responding to each other for a week. It's probably the loving thing to do for each other and the rest of us who want to give everyone the proper forum to speak their mind openly.
 

Duckybill

New Member
Feb 12, 2010
3,416
44
0
Ducky and Truth, you guys don't get along. Ducky, you continuously banter Truth wherever he posts, which doesn't get across your point any better than a single post. Truth, for some reason you entertain him, as though it will somehow strengthen whatever point you're trying to make by trying to make him look foolish. I've seen it thread after thread, and it takes over and rabbit trails. Maybe either of you would like to try fasting (abstaining from) responding to each other for a week. It's probably the loving thing to do for each other and the rest of us who want to give everyone the proper forum to speak their mind openly.
My purpose is to alert Christians of this heresy and to learn. Nothing more. How can a Christian be neutral in this matter??? Any true Christian should be nauseated by someone saying:

'Truth' wrote:

Sin had a hold of Jesus “in” his nature, whereby he inherited from Adam the sentence of death
 

Alethos

New Member
Mar 8, 2011
685
4
0
Melbourne Australia
Ducky and Truth, you guys don't get along. Ducky, you continuously banter Truth wherever he posts, which doesn't get across your point any better than a single post. Truth, for some reason you entertain him, as though it will somehow strengthen whatever point you're trying to make by trying to make him look foolish. I've seen it thread after thread, and it takes over and rabbit trails. Maybe either of you would like to try fasting (abstaining from) responding to each other for a week. It's probably the loving thing to do for each other and the rest of us who want to give everyone the proper forum to speak their mind openly.

Martin

I agree, however, I have asked Ducky not to post over my threads, but he is not respectful of Truth.

Alethos
 

Duckybill

New Member
Feb 12, 2010
3,416
44
0
Martin

I agree, however, I have asked Ducky not to post over my threads, but he is not respectful of Truth.
My comments are directly in regard to YOUR doctrines. If they cannot stand up to scrutiny then they deserve to be exposed. What bothers me is that nobody else seems to be concerned that you are trying to make Jesus sinful.

 

Alethos

New Member
Mar 8, 2011
685
4
0
Melbourne Australia

My comments are directly in regard to YOUR doctrines. If they cannot stand up to scrutiny then they deserve to be exposed. What bothers me is that nobody else seems to be concerned that you are trying to make Jesus sinful.


Have you ever thought that maybe they are investigating the truth concerning Rom 6:9,10,11 & 2 Cor 5:21???

Maybe they are not so arrogant to dismiss these studies as you are.

So far it appears so.

Alethos
 

Duckybill

New Member
Feb 12, 2010
3,416
44
0
Have you ever thought that maybe they are investigating the truth concerning Rom 6:9,10,11 & 2 Cor 5:21???

Maybe they are not so arrogant to dismiss these studies as you are.

So far it appears so.
Another personal insult from a denier of Jesus/God, Satan and eternal punishment in the fire.
 

Clarity

New Member
Mar 30, 2011
51
0
0
46
Australia
Thanks for saying that Martin.

I agree. I also think that Alethos' views might be more nuanced than what they are being characterised as.

Ducky, may I suggest you start a new thread in which you highlight the alleged heresy and rebut with scriptures you deem as relevant.

This would allow Alethos to develop his argument without the constant interruption and make for more pleasant reading for those who want to follow his line of reasoning.
 

Duckybill

New Member
Feb 12, 2010
3,416
44
0
Thanks for saying that Martin.

I agree. I also think that Alethos' views might be more nuanced than what they are being characterised as.
A few of 'truth's' comments implying that Jesus was a sinner:

Christian today struggle to realise that Sin had a hold of Jesus “in” his nature, whereby he inherited from Adam the sentence of death.

Jesus being born under the Law has dual application in that Jesus was redeemed as a man, he was also "redeemed" from the Law of Moses, and from the "curse" of that Law.

I see you are not able, at present, to seperate Jesus (sinnless in mind) from his nature (sin).

“likeness of sinful flesh” means that he was a bond-servant under condemnation of sin as the rest of mankind.

If you don’t believe Jesus came under the same condemnation as you and I then his victory was over what?

Jesus Christ did away with sin in living a life of perfect obedience (Rom 3:22), and finally at the conclusion of his life upon a tree he did away with his sinful nature

If Jesus lived to be an old man he would have died naturally.
 

Clarity

New Member
Mar 30, 2011
51
0
0
46
Australia

A few of 'truth's' comments implying that Jesus was a sinner:

Christian today struggle to realise that Sin had a hold of Jesus “in” his nature, whereby he inherited from Adam the sentence of death.

Jesus being born under the Law has dual application in that Jesus was redeemed as a man, he was also "redeemed" from the Law of Moses, and from the "curse" of that Law.

I see you are not able, at present, to seperate Jesus (sinnless in mind) from his nature (sin).

“likeness of sinful flesh” means that he was a bond-servant under condemnation of sin as the rest of mankind.

If you don’t believe Jesus came under the same condemnation as you and I then his victory was over what?

Jesus Christ did away with sin in living a life of perfect obedience (Rom 3:22), and finally at the conclusion of his life upon a tree he did away with his sinful nature

If Jesus lived to be an old man he would have died naturally.

Thanks for that Ducky. I do 'get' what you're saying here.
However, I respectfully suggest that these quotes do not help in proving that Alethos' position is that Jesus is a 'sinner'.

I get why you are saying that, but as I read these lines this is what I am seeing:

Alethos is saying that Jesus had a nature which is 'related to sin and death' in some way for a specific purpose, but that he lived a morally perfect, sinless life.

Whatever Alethos is saying, its not helpful to simplify it to; "he's saying Jesus is a sinner".

Reading his posts carefully, one can see that he's being very careful not to say that.

Kind Regards.
 

Duckybill

New Member
Feb 12, 2010
3,416
44
0
Reading his posts carefully, one can see that he's being very careful not to say that.
Saying that Jesus was 'redeemed' and under 'condemnation' is not calling Jesus a sinner? Only sinners need to be redeemed. Satan is a deceiver. His ministers come as ministers of righteousness, not ministers of Satan. "Doctrines of demons" are not entitled "doctrines of demons". 'Truth' also denies Jesus/God, the existence of Satan and eternal punishment. Red flags all over the place!
 

Alethos

New Member
Mar 8, 2011
685
4
0
Melbourne Australia
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 8:3 "Of sinful flesh"

The Diaglott renders this as "flesh of sin" others have rendered it "sin's flesh", or "sin-influenced flesh".

It is in flesh where sin naturally reigns (Rom. 6:12), and produces its own fruits (Rom 6:19). The context of Rom 8:3 relate to the weakness of flesh it that it is “prone” to sin. This is an inherent characteristic inherited from the first parents.

The nature of Jesus was identical to that of our own, being "made of a woman" Gal. 4:4, and “had” he followed the will of the flesh, he would have sinned; but this he never did. Nevertheless, he was fully aware of the strong bias within his nature which was capable of deflecting him from his Father's will, had he capitulated to such pressure.

Paul told the Hebrews that Jesus "in the days of his flesh when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save him from (out of) death, and was heard in that he feared" (Heb. 5:7).

Paul is making a comparison which relates to the “days of flesh” and the “impact” of sin in his members felt by the Lord, and the struggle in opposing it through the power of his divinely-inherited mind.

The word "sinful" is the Gr. Harmartia in its genitive form, indicating a relationship of ownership, by virtue of its origin (from the transgression of Adam). Thus the flesh is constitutionally owned by sin; is under the dominion of sin.

Christ was "a constitutional sinner' in other words he "stood related to a sin-constitution of things a state of things arising out of sin, without being himself a committer of sin.

For instance:

Sorrow arises out of sin; and he was a man of sorrow Isa 53:3.

Pain (among men) arises out of sin, and he suffered pain. Isa 52:14 Matt 26:39,42

Weakness arises from sin, and he was 'crucified through weakness'. 2 Cor 13:4

Mortality (among men) is the result of sin, and he was mortal, requiring to be saved from death (Heb. 5:7), and bringing life by his obedience (Rom 5:18,19).

Into this state of things Jesus was introduced, as we are introduced, in being born of a sinful woman. This is the sense of the phrase 'a constitutional sinner'. Only perversity would suppress the word 'constitutional, and allege that Christ to have been a sinner"!!! In this way Christ was "made (i.e. constituted) to be sin for us who knew no sin" (2 Cor. 5:21).

In stressing the true nature borne by Christ, Paul's comment in Rom. 8:3 does not suggest that the Lord Jesus was a moral sinner. He never permitted his nature to reign over, nor dominate him, so that in every moral sense he remained sinless. Weymouth adequately renders this verse:

"Sending His own Son in the form of sinful humanity to deal with sin, God pronounced sentence upon sin in human nature".

Or stated...

"Sinful flesh, being the hereditary nature of the Lord Jesus, he was a fit and proper sacrifice for sin, especially as he was himself 'innocent of the great transgression", having been obedient in all things".

Alethos