Romans 8

[aspen]

Commentary from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

This thread is in response to ATPs request for an explanation of Romans 8:33-39. Since context is important, I included the full chapter.

* [8:1–13] After his warning in Rom 7 against the wrong route to fulfillment of the objective of holiness expressed in Rom 6:22, Paul points his addressees to the correct way. Through the redemptive work of Christ, Christians have been liberated from the terrible forces of sin and death. Holiness was impossible so long as the flesh (or our “old self”), that is, self-interested hostility toward God (Rom 8:7), frustrated the divine objectives expressed in the law. What is worse, sin used the law to break forth into all manner of lawlessness (Rom 8:8). All this is now changed. At the cross God broke the power of sin and pronounced sentence on it (Rom 8:3). Christians still retain the flesh, but it is alien to their new being, which is life in the spirit, namely the new self, governed by the holy Spirit. Under the direction of the holy Spirit Christians are able to fulfill the divine will that formerly found expression in the law (Rom 8:4). The same Spirit who enlivens Christians for holiness will also resurrect their bodies at the last day (Rom 8:11). Christian life is therefore the experience of a constant challenge to put to death the evil deeds of the body through life of the spirit (Rom 8:13).

* [8:14–17] Christians, by reason of the Spirit’s presence within them, enjoy not only new life but also a new relationship to God, that of adopted children and heirs through Christ, whose sufferings and glory they share.

* [8:15] Abba: see note on Mk 14:36.

* [8:18–27] The glory that believers are destined to share with Christ far exceeds the sufferings of the present life. Paul considers the destiny of the created world to be linked with the future that belongs to the believers. As it shares in the penalty of corruption brought about by sin, so also will it share in the benefits of redemption and future glory that comprise the ultimate liberation of God’s people (Rom 8:19–22). After patient endurance in steadfast expectation, the full harvest of the Spirit’s presence will be realized. On earth believers enjoy the firstfruits, i.e., the Spirit, as a guarantee of the total liberation of their bodies from the influence of the rebellious old self (Rom 8:23).

* [8:28–30] These verses outline the Christian vocation as it was designed by God: to be conformed to the image of his Son, who is to be the firstborn among many brothers (Rom 8:29). God’s redemptive action on behalf of the believers has been in process before the beginning of the world. Those whom God chooses are those he foreknew (Rom 8:29) or elected. Those who are called (Rom 8:30) are predestined or predetermined. These expressions do not mean that God is arbitrary. Rather, Paul uses them to emphasize the thought and care that God has taken for the Christian’s salvation.

* [8:28] We know that all things work for good for those who love God: a few ancient authorities have God as the subject of the verb, and some translators render: “We know that God makes everything work for good for those who love God….”

* [8:29] Image: while man and woman were originally created in God’s image (Gn 1:26–27), it is through baptism into Christ, the image of God (2 Cor 4:4; Col 1:15), that we are renewed according to the image of the Creator (Col 3:10).

* [8:31–39] The all-conquering power of God’s love has overcome every obstacle to Christians’ salvation and every threat to separate them from God. That power manifested itself fully when God’s own Son was delivered up to death for their salvation. Through him Christians can overcome all their afflictions and trials.

* [8:38] Present things and future things may refer to astrological data. Paul appears to be saying that the gospel liberates believers from dependence on astrologers.

* [8:39] Height, depth may refer to positions in the zodiac, positions of heavenly bodies relative to the horizon. In astrological documents the term for “height” means “exaltation” or the position of greatest influence exerted by a planet. Since hostile spirits were associated with the planets and stars, Paul includes powers (Rom 8:38) in his list of malevolent forces.

 

[ATP]

* [8:31–39] The all-conquering power of God’s love has overcome every obstacle to Christians’ salvation and every threat to separate them from God. That power manifested itself fully when God’s own Son was delivered up to death for their salvation. Through him Christians can overcome all their afflictions and trials.

So, in knowing this you still believe a Christian can lose their salvation??

 

[aspen]

I've never believed that a Christian can lose their salvation.

 

[ATP]

I've never believed that a Christian can lose their salvation.

Good. I'm glad were on the same page.

 

[aspen]

I , like the Bishops who wrote this commentary believe that we can forfeit our salvation - Paul is speaking in this verse about losing the love of God, which is not possible. I am surprised that you didn't notice the point of many of my recent posts about losing vs forfeiting salvation?

 

[ATP]

I , like the Bishops who wrote this commentary believe that we can forfeit our salvation - Paul is speaking in this verse about losing our salvation, which is not possible. I am surprised that you didn't notice the point of many of my recent posts about losing vs forfeiting salvation?

But Rom 8:33-39 is about God not letting go of us. How can we forfeit God when God won't forfeit us?? Once we believe, we then have eternal life John 3:16 NIV.

John 6:39 NIV And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 10:27-30 NIV My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

John 14:6 NIV Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

[aspen]

But Rom 8:33-39 is about God not letting go of us. How can we forfeit God when God won't forfeit us?? Once we believe, we then have eternal life John 3:16 NIV.

Same way any relationship ends - one person decides to leave. Unlike other relationships, God commits to stay with us, unless we walk away.

John 6:39 NIV And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

Key word 'lose'. Once again He will not abandon us.

John 10:27-30 NIV My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

No snatching involved when you forfeit a relationship with God.

John 14:6 NIV Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

No argument here.

Seems to me that Paul and Jesus are making it clear that we cannot blame anything (serpents, Devils or anything else) from separating us from The love of God. it is totally dependent on us to disobey and walk away from God. It is the unforgivable sin against the HS and that doesn't even separate us from God and it is totally our own fault.

I do not blame God for being so clear on this point - we are a blaming people - the serpent, the devil, the liberals.....llnothing seems to be our fault. The twin towers fall - first order of the day, 'whose fault is is it'.

 

[ATP]

Same way any relationship ends - one person decides to leave.

But this is not a relationship between two human beings. It's between one human being and God himself! It's not you and your girlfriend who likes to chew bubble gum and play with her hair, no. It's you and God aspen. Do you understand what I'm saying here.

God commits to stay with us, unless we walk away.

Do you see what you're doing here. You're adding to scripture. Rom 8:33-39 ESV says God will never let us go. PERIOD. There is no "unless".

Key word 'lose'. Once again He will not abandon us.

Yes!! Finally, you're getting it. So how do we abandon Him if He doesn't abandon us? You see what I'm saying. Again, this is not your girlfriend we're speaking of here. We're speaking of God the Father who is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.

No snatching involved when you forfeit a relationship with God.

This is another example of how God refuses to let US go, not the other way around. Not only does it say we will not be snatch out of the hands of Jesus, but also the Father's hand! The Father who is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. This passage is clear as day.

it is totally dependent on us to disobey and walk away from God.

We can walk away from fellowship but never our relationship with God. If we can forfeit our salvation yet the Holy Spirit is convicting us, teaching us and disciplining us at the same time then God would be contradictory. Salvation is a gift given to us by the Father, and John 6:39 NIV specifically states that those (the elect) who were given to Jesus by the Father, Jesus will lose NONE OF THEM. You don't support the root aspen, the root supports YOU Rom 11:18 NIV.

 

[aspen]

But this is not a relationship between two human beings. It's between one human being and God himself! It's not you and your girlfriend who likes to chew bubble gum and play with her hair, no. It's you and God aspen. Do you understand what I'm saying here.

I understand what you are saying and believe you have a low opinion of relationships. My ability to relate to people and God, is the same ability. In fact, I believe our ability and desire to relate is the manner in which we were created in God's image. God didn't tell us to go out and love God differently than the way we are supposed to love our neighbor because it is supposed to be the same love. Instead, he specifically told us that how we treat others is how we are treating Him. Do you also believe that faith in God is different than the faith we exercise in our daily life? It is the same faith. BTW, I am not a fourteen year old so bubble gum and hair twirling has not been a part of my relationships for a long time.

Do you see what you're doing here. You're adding to scripture. Rom 8:33-39 ESV says God will never let us go. PERIOD. There is no "unless".

Actually, you are trying to add to scripture by equating God's commitment to us and our commitment to Him - the fact is God has never left humanity, even after we walked away from Him the first time in the Garden. You are also changing scripture by making the promise that nothing can separate us from salvation instead of the love of God. If I am adding to scripture, then so are all ministers and authors of commentary. In reality, I am not adding to scripture, nor am I adding to the Book of Revelation, which is the only book the scripture you are referring to is talking about.

Yes!! Finally, you're getting it. So how do we abandon Him if He doesn't abandon us? You see what I'm saying. Again, this is not your girlfriend we're speaking of here. We're speaking of God the Father who is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.

Same way Adam and Eve did it in the Garden; the result is death.

This is another example of how God refuses to let US go, not the other way around. Not only does it say we will not be snatch out of the hands of Jesus, but also the Father's hand! The Father who is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. This passage is clear as day.

God chooses to remain in relationship with people who are dead in their sins....that is how He works. He has done so since the Fall, so why not into eternity? Unfortunately, there will still be people who reject the relationship.

We can walk away from fellowship but never our relationship with God. If we can forfeit our salvation yet the Holy Spirit is convicting us, teaching us and disciplining us at the same time then God would be contradictory. Salvation is a gift given to us by the Father, and John 6:39 NIV specifically states that those (the elect) who were given to Jesus by the Father, Jesus will lose NONE OF THEM. You don't support the root aspen, the root supports YOU Rom 11:18 NIV.

You underestimate the depravity of humanity - perhaps you should review your TULIP. The irony of me instructing a Calvanist on depravity aside, all relationships require at least two people who are present in the relationship. It takes work and commitment by all parties. God is all the way in, but it doesn't guarantee that the individual Christian is or will be.

 

[ATP]

Do you also believe that faith in God is different than the faith we exercise in our daily life? It is the same faith.

I disagree. People can put their faith in many things, godly or ungodly.

the fact is God has never left humanity, even after we walked away from Him the first time in the Garden.

But Rom 8:33-39 ESV isn't talking about humanity in the Garden of Eden. It's talking about the elect after resurrection, God's children aspen.

You are also changing scripture by making the promise that nothing can separate us from salvation instead of the love of God.

The love of God spoken of in Rom 8:39 ESV IS His salvation aspen. Jesus died on the cross out of love. Notice it says IN Christ Jesus our Lord. IN. Also notice John 14:6 NIV says THROUGH me. What is scripture saying here when they say IN and THROUGH.......

Rom 8:39 ESV nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God IN Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 14:6 NIV Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Same way Adam and Eve did it in the Garden; the result is death.

But Adam and Eve existed before resurrection. There was no seal of the promised Holy Spirit then Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 4:30 NIV.

God chooses to remain in relationship with people who are dead in their sins....that is how He works. He has done so since the Fall, so why not into eternity? Unfortunately, there will still be people who reject the relationship.

You're confusing the Mosaic Covenant with the Covenant of Grace. Jesus dying on the cross and shedding His blood is what separates these two, before resurrection and after resurrection. Earlier you compared a masters degree to the blood of Christ. So I'm assuming you're confused in this area?

You underestimate the depravity of humanity - perhaps you should review your TULIP. The irony of me instructing a Calvanist on depravity aside, all relationships require at least two people who are present in the relationship. It takes work and commitment by all parties. God is all the way in, but it doesn't guarantee that the individual Christian is or will be.

Has the Holy Spirit ever convicted you of a sin in your life aspen? Do you understand what conviction is and how it works.

 

[aspen]

I disagree. People can put their faith in many things, godly or ungodly.

I agree that people can put their faith in many things - we have to excercise faith in order to live our lives. Your comment doesn't address my question. I asked if faith (not what it is directed at) is the same mechanism, no matter what it is directed at. My point is we use the same mechanism called faith, whether we are placing it in our car or whether we are placing it in God. Faith is faith. It is similar to money - it is the same money, no matter what it purchases.

But Rom 8:33-39 ESV isn't talking about humanity in the Garden of Eden. It's talking about the elect after resurrection, God's children aspen.

Which has nothing to do with my comment. Humans have a history of leaving their relationship with God. God has a history of continuing to love.

The love of God spoken of in Rom 8:39 ESV IS His salvation aspen. Jesus died on the cross out of love. Notice it says IN Christ Jesus our Lord. IN. Also notice John 14:6 NIV says THROUGH me. What is scripture saying here when they say IN and THROUGH.......

Rom 8:39 ESV nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God IN Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 14:6 NIV Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

What is the difference between the love has towards sinners and those people who you claim He has saved, instantly? You are promoting the idea that people who say the magic words and are suddenly redeemed no longer have the option of leaving the relationship. You are twisting Paul's words, he is using to provide encouragement to people who may be afraid that God will forsake them and turning it into a master slave relationship. Jesus told us that we are no longer slaves, but friends. He will continue to love us, but He is not going to force us to return His love.

But Adam and Eve existed before resurrection. There was no seal of the promised Holy Spirit then Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 4:30 NIV.

The Holy Spirit was in the Garden. Adam and Eve knew God - they walked with Him and eventually, turned their backs on Him.

You're confusing the Mosaic Covenant with the Covenant of Grace. Jesus dying on the cross and shedding His blood is what separates these two, before resurrection and after resurrection. Earlier you compared a masters degree to the blood of Christ. So I'm assuming you're confused in this area?

I am not confusing the covenants. They are not relevant to our conversation. God has loved humanity throughout time and always will. It is humanity that has rebelled against Him and forgotten Him. Paul did not make the distinction between covenants in Romans. And, I will try to remember not to make analogies - you are obviously too stuck in the literal - good luck with interpreting Paul or Jesus's parables.

Has the Holy Spirit ever convicted you of a sin in your life aspen? Do you understand what conviction is and how it works.

What does my personal sin have to do with this conversation? God does not love me any less when I rebel against Him; but when I do, I am not longer able to be intimate or vulnerable with Him, until I confess my sins. Once again it is my rebellion that changes the relationship, not Him.

 

[mjrhealth]

I hope this clears it up.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

As aspen said, it is not God that turns away from us it is us who truns away from God, if we reject God what can He do, that is our will and God will not go against our will that is why he gave us freedom to choose.

In all His Love

 

[KingJ]

I don't know why we always argue this subject. It should be 'dead' obvious that OSAS is true from God's perspective and can never be fully grasped from ours.

God does not reveal Himself 1 Cor 12:3 / come in Rev 3:20 unless He is fully convinced that heart and mind Jer 17:10 wants Him. God does not make mistakes.

Mankind cannot ever be confident that we are one of the elected saints until we are actually with Him. Until then we work out our salvation in fear and trembling Phil 2:12, daily judging ourselves 1 Cor 11:31.

If we could lose our salvation from God's perspective, then why would God allow us to be on earth for those extra years? The criminal next to Him on the cross went straight to heaven. But us who do what he did and more in that we stay on to serve, run a risk of loss?

From our perspective, how can we ever think a person in mortal sins loves Him > hating Him? Everyone one of us who love Him need to fear Him and have a mindset of falling away / losing our salvation being a possibility.

 

[ATP]

Which has nothing to do with my comment. Humans have a history of leaving their relationship with God. God has a history of continuing to love.

They leave fellowship with God, not relationship. If we do leave fellowship God will convict you.

What is the difference between the love has towards sinners and those people who you claim He has saved, instantly? You are promoting the idea that people who say the magic words and are suddenly redeemed no longer have the option of leaving the relationship. You are twisting Paul's words, he is using to provide encouragement to people who may be afraid that God will forsake them and turning it into a master slave relationship. Jesus told us that we are no longer slaves, but friends. He will continue to love us, but He is not going to force us to return His love.

A good example is John 3:16, once we believe on the name of Jesus and His resurrection we then have eternal life.

The Holy Spirit was in the Garden. Adam and Eve knew God - they walked with Him and eventually, turned their backs on Him.

But they existed before resurrection aspen, before the seal of the promised Holy Spirit.

I am not confusing the covenants. They are not relevant to our conversation. God has loved humanity throughout time and always will. It is humanity that has rebelled against Him and forgotten Him. Paul did not make the distinction between covenants in Romans. And, I will try to remember not to make analogies - you are obviously too stuck in the literal - good luck with interpreting Paul or Jesus's parables.

Well, the covenants are relevant. The blood of Jesus shed on the cross and the seal of God separates these two.

What does my personal sin have to do with this conversation? God does not love me any less when I rebel against Him; but when I do, I am not longer able to be intimate or vulnerable with Him, until I confess my sins. Once again it is my rebellion that changes the relationship, not Him.

It is your rebellion that changes your fellowship with Him. Personal sin has everything to do with it. You're disregarding the power of the Holy Spirit in that He convicts, teaches, helps and disciplines us.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

This passage is about false teachers that knew Jesus but still walked away from salvation, similar to Rom 1:18-32 NIV. Even the title of this section is called "False Teachers and Their Destruction".

2 Peter 2:20 NIV If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

Rom 1:28 NIV Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

These passages are about non believing Jews and their unbelief. Notice verse 7-8 speaks of the crop, farmer and thorns and thistles. We also see Jews struggling with unbelief in Heb 2, 3 and 4. These Jews heard the gospel of salvation but were struggling with accepting Jesus as Savior.....

Heb 2:1-3 ESV Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. 2For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, 3how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard,

Heb 3:16 ESV For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses?

Heb 4:1-3 ESV Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. 2For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. 3For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

When we do believe on His name and accept His message of truth we are then sealed until redemption Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 4:30 NIV. - ATP

 

[ATP]

John 6:28-29 NIV Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

 

[JimParker]

So, in knowing this you still believe a Christian can lose their salvation??

From what do you think we are saved?

What God did by becoming man, being crucified and dying, and then raising from the dead was to destroy the power of death to hold mankind in the grave.

Death entered by way of sin.

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Christ destroyed death's power to hold mankind.

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

All of mankind will be raised from death incorruptible and immortal.

1Co 15:21-22 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

1Co 15:52-54 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”


How you spend eternity is up to you.

Rom 2:6-10 (God) “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Salvation can be lost or cast off by those who do not patiently and continuously do good but, instead, turn back to the ways of the world.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

Nobody gets a guaranteed ticket to heaven for saying a sinners prayer even when they mean it. Like the workers in the vineyard, you only get paid if you work til the end of the day.

 

[ATP]

What God did by becoming man, being crucified and dying, and then raising from the dead was to destroy the power of death to hold mankind in the grave.

Death entered by way of sin.

Correct, but not only did Jesus conquer death. He died so that we would have eternal life John 3:16 NIV. It is that simple Jim. Jesus died for past, present and future sins John 1:29 NIV, Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 10:12 NIV, 1 John 2:12 NIV, Rev 1:4-5 NIV.

Salvation can be lost or cast off by those who do not patiently and continuously do good but, instead, turn back to the ways of the world.

But scripture says your righteous works are filthy and disgusting to God. Your self-righteousness means nothing to Him. Are you a Pharisee Jim? Isa 64:6 NIV, Matt 6:1 NIV, Matt 23:25-26 NIV, Matt 23:27-28 NIV, Rom 8:9-11 NIV, Rom 10:3-4 NIV, 2 Tim 1:9 NIV, Titus 3:5 NIV. Religion doesn't save you Jim, belief does.

 

[ATP]

Aspen and Jim. Notice it says elect and death here. Also notice it mentions the Father AND Christ Jesus.......

Rom 8:33 ESV Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

Rom 8:38-39 ESV For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

- ATP

 

[ATP]

Seems to me that death is death..

Rom 6:3-5 NIV Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.

Rom 8:36 ESV As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered."

 

[brakelite]

There are 3 significant parables that deal with the lost. The lost sheep, (Luke 15:3), the lost coin (Luke 15:8) and the lost son (Luke 15:11) . In the first two, through no fault of their own, the coin and sheep were lost, and they were looked for earnestly until they were found. When found, the coin was still silver, and the sheep was still a sheep. However, the son was lost because he decided against any continuing relationship with his father. He did not abide in the vine. He was lost through his own faulty reasoning, his own sin. The father did not search for him. The father waited until he changed his mind, then welcomed him back in the same manner as God does with the lost sinner, rejoicing with his neighbors and friends. When he returned he was still a son, but knew his unworthiness to be accepted as such. He was dirty, he was smelly, he was destitute, he was in need of a Savior. Though a son, he was still lost.