Rome vs Melchizedek

[bbyrd009]

i dunno, i'm not buying any borders of heaven, personally, but i think he makes a good point at this "absolution?" Imo if you sin against someone, and then go ask for absolution from the church, without confessing and asking forgiveness from the one you sinned against, what have you done? But then i am not too fam with Catholic confession, perhaps that is a necessary component? But of course then why would one be steered into "penance," saying Hail Marys or whatever...ya, that's just satanic imo, sorry.

The doctrine of a final Purgation is anything BUT an "invention".
Of course - you have to be able to understand Scripture.

Luther on Purgatory:
"I myself have come to the conclusion that there is a purgatory, but I cannot force anybody else to come to the same result." (Career of the Reformer, Luther’s Works, Vol. 32)

"The existence of a purgatory I have never denied. I still hold that it exists, as I have written and admitted [Unterricht auf etlich Artikel. WA 2, 70] many times."

ok, got any Scripture then?

(And um, isn't Luther a Protestant, anyway?) In January 1521, Pope Leo X excommunicated Luther. ("Diet of Worms," lol; nothing Freudian goin on there, eh...)

so wadr, not only are you not providing any Scripture, you are quoting a heretic, i don't get it, sorry.

I don't mean to be rude, but i am reminded of Prot ministers who denounce women ministers, yet have no problem following a woman minister into Rapture doctrine.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Breadoflife: You stated: "To say that you can sin boldly without repenting is a perversion of Scripture."

Who said that? People who are born from above are convicted of sin by God. A bold, obvious sin must be repented, and will be repented by that believer. But, many sins are not even recognized by the believer and are already completely, and perfectly, forgiven by God through the Lord Jesus.

I say that because of the false and unbiblical Protestant doctrine of Eternal Security.

According to this false belief, a Christian, after having been "saved" is assured a place in Heaven - no matter what. ALL sins are forgiven - past present and future.

Nowhere does the bible state that your future sins are forgiven without repentance. The Bible teaches us that a believing, saved christian can fall from grace and LOSE their secure place:

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

 

[BreadOfLife]

i dunno, i'm not buying any borders of heaven, personally, but i think he makes a good point at this "absolution?" Imo if you sin against someone, and then go ask for absolution from the church, without confessing and asking forgiveness from the one you sinned against, what have you done? But then i am not too fam with Catholic confession, perhaps that is a necessary component? But of course then why would one be steered into "penance," saying Hail Marys or whatever...ya, that's just satanic imo, sorry.
ok, got any Scripture then?

(And um, isn't Luther a Protestant, anyway?) In January 1521, Pope Leo X excommunicated Luther. ("Diet of Worms," lol; nothing Freudian goin on there, eh...)

so wadr, not only are you not providing any Scripture, you are quoting a heretic, i don't get it, sorry.

I don't mean to be rude, but i am reminded of Prot ministers who denounce women ministers, yet have no problem following a woman minister into Rapture doctrine.

I quoted Luther because he was a Protestant - just like YOU.

As for Purgatory - since Rev. 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean can enter heaven, a final purification or purgation is necessary for some before entering heaven.
the belief in Purgatory is Scripturally-based.

In 2 Macc. 42-46, we see that Judas Maccabeus prays for the men of his army, killed in battle. Verse 44 says, “… for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.” Matt. 5:25-26 tells us that unless we have settled our matters, we will be “handed over to the prison guard and will not be released until we have paid the last penny.”

We are told in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that the day (judgment) will disclose the foundation that a person builds upon and how it will be revealed: “If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

We know that there is no suffering in Heaven - so this is not Heaven.
We know that those spoken of here will be saved - so this is not Hell.
This is a THIRD state - the state of Final Purgation of our will to conform with GOD's will.

Additionally, Matt. 12:32 states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”, which indicates that there is purification after death for some. Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.

All of these verses point to the fact that those in Purgatory will suffer loss but will eventually be released (purified, purged from iniquity, saved).

 

[Mungo]

i dunno, i'm not buying any borders of heaven, personally, but i think he makes a good point at this "absolution?" Imo if you sin against someone, and then go ask for absolution from the church, without confessing and asking forgiveness from the one you sinned against, what have you done? But then i am not too fam with Catholic confession, perhaps that is a necessary component? But of course then why would one be steered into "penance," saying Hail Marys or whatever...ya, that's just satanic imo, sorry.

You admit to be ignorant of Catholic practices.

But then - based on that ignorance - you accuse Catholics of satanic practices!

That's really stupid - imo of course.

 

[Stranger]

To say that you can sin boldly without repenting is a perversion of Scripture.
Here are a few passages that completely annihilate your false teaching. Mind you - ALL of these verses are talking about "SAVED" Christians:

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

I certainly don't say we as Christians can 'sin boldly' without repenting. But neither do I say these verses you have given say the Christian loses his or her salvation.

You say in your post #9 that all Scripture must harmonize. How do you harmonize the Scriptures you have given with those that say 'distinctly' that salvation is by faith and faith alone'?

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

I certainly don't say we as Christians can 'sin boldly' without repenting. But neither do I say these verses you have given say the Christian loses his or her salvation.

You say in your post #9 that all Scripture must harmonize. How do you harmonize the Scriptures you have given with those that say 'distinctly' that salvation is by faith and faith alone'?

Stranger

There is not one single verse of Scripture that makes the claim you are making - that we are saved by "Faith alone."
In fact - the ONLY time the phrase "Faith alone" appears in the Entire Bible in James 2:24, where he explicitly states:
"See how a person is justified by works and NOT BY faith alone."

Apparently, you didn't read the verses I presented in my last post that speak of SAVED Christians losing their salvation.
As I pointed out:
The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). These verses are about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Please refute this before you make the claim that they are NOT talking about people losing their salvation.
Please also refute the other passages that are clearly talking about the loss of salvation.

 

[bbyrd009]

You admit to be ignorant of Catholic practices.

But then - based on that ignorance - you accuse Catholics of satanic practices!

That's really stupid - imo of course.

well, but that is not based upon ignorance, though--are not Catholics encouraged to confess to someone they call "father," and encouraged to do "penance?" And please don't take the "satanic" thing too personally, ok, all have sinned and come short, me included. But imo there is a diff in naivete or ignorance, and deliberate, willful disobeying. Ty, BoL, for the reasoning for Purgatory, i always wondered about that. I'm not interested in debating doctrine with you guys, i think that is pointless and doomed, as is praying for the dead, which has no Witness in Scripture, but otoh i don't want to condemn this if it has meaning for anyone. It is an ancient practice, and pagan, but i think God judges differently than we do. If you sin against me, all of the penance in the world does not make it right, whereas a simple apology usually works wonders, imo. Put the question to a little kid, and see what they say, perhaps.

 

[BreadOfLife]

well, but that is not based upon ignorance, though--are not Catholics encouraged to confess to someone they call "father," and encouraged to do "penance?" And please don't take the "satanic" thing too personally, ok, all have sinned and come short, me included. But imo there is a diff in naivete or ignorance, and deliberate, willful disobeying. Ty, BoL, for the reasoning for Purgatory, i always wondered about that. I'm not interested in debating doctrine with you guys, i think that is pointless and doomed, as is praying for the dead, which has no Witness in Scripture, but otoh i don't want to condemn this if it has meaning for anyone. It is an ancient practice, and pagan, but i think God judges differently than we do. If you sin against me, all of the penance in the world does not make it right, whereas a simple apology usually works wonders, imo. Put the question to a little kid, and see what they say, perhaps.

There's "No" Scriptural basis for praying for the dead?
Wanna bet??

In 2 Macc. 42-46, we see that Judas Maccabeus prays for the men of his army, killed in battle. Verse 44 says"
“… for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.”

 

[bbyrd009]

All of these verses point to the fact that those in Purgatory will suffer loss but will eventually be released (purified, purged from iniquity, saved).

or that a Purgatory has been invented to avoid the fact that "the age to come" will occur on earth;

“If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

see that there is no reason why this cannot occur in today for an individual, whose hypocritical works come to nought, but a lesson is learned, and they can then build upon a firm foundation.

As for Purgatory - since Rev. 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean can enter heaven, a final purification or purgation is necessary for some before entering heaven.
the belief in Purgatory is Scripturally-based.

until it is seen that the kingdom is right beside you, right now, yes. It actually becomes immoral to wait for your life to begin in some undetermined future, as Gandhi has said. This is the cause of much of the suffering in the world, and why Christians are noted for being so unlike Christ.

 

[bbyrd009]

There's "No" Scriptural basis for praying for the dead?
Wanna bet??

In 2 Macc. 42-46, we see that Judas Maccabeus prays for the men of his army, killed in battle. Verse 44 says"
“… for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.”

you might have a better chance at 2Tim1:18, which is at least NT, but

4Anyone who is among the living has hopeb —even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

5For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.

et al, so i doubt it, sorry. Possibly why Maccabees is no longer considered Canon by many, and you can see that there is no other Witness for this concept, but then, most Prots are "tomorrow people" too, so believe what you like--but it fails in a holistic view of Scripture, it seems to me.

 

[BreadOfLife]

or that a Purgatory has been invented to avoid the fact that "the age to come" will occur on earth;

“If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

see that there is no reason why this cannot occur in today for an individual, whose hypocritical works come to nought, but a lesson is learned, and they can then build upon a firm foundation.

until it is seen that the kingdom is right beside you, right now, yes. It actually becomes immoral to wait for your life to begin in some undetermined future, as Gandhi has said. This is the cause of much of the suffering in the world, and why Christians are noted for being so unlike Christ.

One BIG flaw in your theory:
1 Cor. 3:12-15 is talking about the Day of Judgement – not the present day.

see that there is no reason why this cannot occur in today for an individual, whose hypocritical works come to nought, but a lesson is learned, and they can then build upon a firm foundation.

Wrong.
Rev. 21:27 is talking about HEAVEN – not earth.

 

[BreadOfLife]

you might have a better chance at 2Tim1:18, which is at least NT, but

4Anyone who is among the living has hopeb —even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

5For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.

et al, so i doubt it, sorry. Possibly why Maccabees is no longer considered Canon by many, and you can see that there is no other Witness for this concept, but then, most Prots are "tomorrow people" too, so believe what you like--but it fails in a holistic view of Scripture, it seems to me.

WHO told you that Maccabees was not Canonical?
Can you tell me that??

As for 2 Tim. 1:18 you're taking it out of context.
Hebrews 12:1 says of those in Heaven that "... we are surrounded by so great a cloud of WITNESSES."
A "witness", by definition is a person who can see and hear.

Those who are in Heaven in the presence of almighty God are more alive than YOU or me.

 

[Mungo]

4Anyone who is among the living has hopeb —even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

5For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.

et al, .

Got bored have you - throwing out random verses without saying where they come from or the point you are trying to make. (Do you actually have a point to make?)

 

[bbyrd009]

WHO told you that Maccabees was not Canonical?
Can you tell me that??

A "witness", by definition is a person who can see and hear.


Those who are in Heaven in the presence of almighty God are more alive than YOU or me.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i would consider the Scriptural Witness more important than the strict Canonicity of a passage, personally. And since i see no Witness for the concept in the rest of Scripture--which concept is a generally accepted one, that of different verses reinforcing each other--i would suspect it. Also, the common view of heaven, as that of being in some other place or some other time, also does not stand up to Scripture imo, although i understand how people are led to this, and i think i also dimly see why. You posit heaven as being in the presence of God, see, when God is not confined, and is everywhere; so our negotiations will quickly break down absent this basic understanding, which i believe is necessary to carry people to "anywhere but here," which imo is a pretty good analogy for where most people end up at some point, spiritually speaking.

We are plainly told that we are not assured tomorrow, for instance, which would be irrelevant in your model, it seems to me; and it is put many other ways, also.

 

[bbyrd009]

Got bored have you - throwing out random verses without saying where they come from or the point you are trying to make. (Do you actually have a point to make?)

Mungo, the point might be that you can pray for the dead if you like; just as you can imagine that Easter is in Scripture, too, if you want. If i keep my blinders on, i can even see it, ok. Now, you are free to pick up a shovel and discover that there is no Easter in Scripture--just as there is no prayer for the dead--or not, as it suits you; i am not here to legislate your beliefs. All i have is an opinion. And we all know what those are worth.

 

[Mungo]

Mungo, the point might be that you can pray for the dead if you like; just as you can imagine that Easter is in Scripture, too, if you want. If i keep my blinders on, i can even see it, ok. Now, you are free to pick up a shovel and discover that there is no Easter in Scripture--just as there is no prayer for the dead--or not, as it suits you; i am not here to legislate your beliefs. All i have is an opinion. And we all know what those are worth.

Yes, nothing!

 

[BreadOfLife]

WHO told you that Maccabees was not Canonical?
Can you tell me that??

A "witness", by definition is a person who can see and hear.


Those who are in Heaven in the presence of almighty God are more alive than YOU or me.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i would consider the Scriptural Witness more important than the strict Canonicity of a passage, personally. And since i see no Witness for the concept in the rest of Scripture--which concept is a generally accepted one, that of different verses reinforcing each other--i would suspect it. Also, the common view of heaven, as that of being in some other place or some other time, also does not stand up to Scripture imo, although i understand how people are led to this, and i think i also dimly see why. You posit heaven as being in the presence of God, see, when God is not confined, and is everywhere; so our negotiations will quickly break down absent this basic understanding, which i believe is necessary to carry people to "anywhere but here," which imo is a pretty good analogy for where most people end up at some point, spiritually speaking.

We are plainly told that we are not assured tomorrow, for instance, which would be irrelevant in your model, it seems to me; and it is put many other ways, also.

You completely dodged the question.
WHO told you that Maccabees is not canonical?? By whose authority do you make that claim??

As for Heaven - no, it is not on earth.
Jesus ascended to Heaven and LEFT earth.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Mungo, the point might be that you can pray for the dead if you like; just as you can imagine that Easter is in Scripture, too, if you want. If i keep my blinders on, i can even see it, ok. Now, you are free to pick up a shovel and discover that there is no Easter in Scripture--just as there is no prayer for the dead--or not, as it suits you; i am not here to legislate your beliefs. All i have is an opinion. And we all know what those are worth.

The Resurrection is NOT in Scripture??
Are you really sure you want to stand by that ridiculous statement??

 

[bbyrd009]

The Resurrection is NOT in Scripture??
Are you really sure you want to stand by that ridiculous statement??

well, are "the dead" strictly physically dead, in God's eyes, or can one be "the walking dead," iow spiritually dead, right now, today, which is all God cares about imo. Although i did not mean to refer to the resurrection, this is applicable there, too, imo. You do not know where you came from, or where you are going, and anyone who tells you different is deceived.

 

[Stranger]

There is not one single verse of Scripture that makes the claim you are making - that we are saved by "Faith alone."
In fact - the ONLY time the phrase "Faith alone" appears in the Entire Bible in James 2:24, where he explicitly states:
"See how a person is justified by works and NOT BY faith alone."

The 'works' attributed to Abraham in (James 2:24) occur long after his initial salvation.(Gen.22:1-13) Righteousness was already imputed to him. (Gen.15:6) His works were a product or fulfillment of his salvation. They played no role in his being declared righteous by God. (James 2:23)

(Eph. 2:8-9) " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." In other words, faith alone.

So, how do you harmonize your verses which say teach that one can lose their salvation with that?

Stranger